Need some passport advice

[mlc19802009]

Background: I've decided to surprise my mom, dad and niece with an Alaska cruise for Christmas. I've booked the Grand Princess (Princess Cruise Line) for June of 2020 for the Voyage of the Glaciers, Southbound from Whittier to Vancouver. My parents are working on getting a passport for my niece but they are under the impression that I'm going to surprise just my niece with an Alaskan cruise. 

 

My sister has custody of my niece but I am not sure it was worded as sole custody. I have not seen the official paperwork myself. There was an ugly custody battle 4 years ago that ended with my niece's father having only supervised visitation. Since then we have not heard anything from him (and we like it that way). 

 

So now I'm getting to work on getting her a passport and I'm afraid that it is going to end up being much more difficult than I expected. I see on the website that both parents have to provide notarized approval to get the minor a passport and that is just not an option, since we have had a peaceful 4 years of no contact with the father we want to keep it that way. Plus, I honestly think he would refuse to give permission just to be difficult. 

 

If we are not able to get a passport issued for her, am I interpreting the laws right by thinking we could still do the Alaska cruise and I would have to find a way to get her (and my parents of course) back to the US by sea or land, such as a train ride or a ferry ride? She will be 13 at the time of the cruise and we do have her birth certificate handy. 

 

Any advice or suggestions appreciated.  

[Flatbush Flyer]

1 hour ago, mlc19802009 said:

Background: I've decided to surprise my mom, dad and niece with an Alaska cruise for Christmas. I've booked the Grand Princess (Princess Cruise Line) for June of 2020 for the Voyage of the Glaciers, Southbound from Whittier to Vancouver. My parents are working on getting a passport for my niece but they are under the impression that I'm going to surprise just my niece with an Alaskan cruise. 

 

My sister has custody of my niece but I am not sure it was worded as sole custody. I have not seen the official paperwork myself. There was an ugly custody battle 4 years ago that ended with my niece's father having only supervised visitation. Since then we have not heard anything from him (and we like it that way). 

 

So now I'm getting to work on getting her a passport and I'm afraid that it is going to end up being much more difficult than I expected. I see on the website that both parents have to provide notarized approval to get the minor a passport and that is just not an option, since we have had a peaceful 4 years of no contact with the father we want to keep it that way. Plus, I honestly think he would refuse to give permission just to be difficult. 

 

If we are not able to get a passport issued for her, am I interpreting the laws right by thinking we could still do the Alaska cruise and I would have to find a way to get her (and my parents of course) back to the US by sea or land, such as a train ride or a ferry ride? She will be 13 at the time of the cruise and we do have her birth certificate handy. 

 

Any advice or suggestions appreciated.  

You may want to rethink your "interpretation." The kid needs a passport for that itinerary. And, this matter is a job best handled by the attorney who represented your sister in the custody matter. 

[MicCanberra]

Agreed, a valid passport would be required.

[ontheweb]

Yes, an attorney's advice is needed. The bunch of non-lawyers on these boards are not qualified to give legal advice.

 

I hope all turns out well for you and your extended family. 

[SRF]

Where does the cruise start and end?

 

If it starts or ends in Canada, she will need a passport.

 

Yes, contact an attorney.  It may be possible to get a court order to allow the issuance of the passport.

[MicCanberra]

1 minute ago, SRF said:

Where does the cruise start and end?

 

If it starts or ends in Canada, she will need a passport.

 

Yes, contact an attorney.  It may be possible to get a court order to allow the issuance of the passport.

The OP posted it was a Southbound from Whittier to Vancouver, so yes, a passport is needed.

[clo]

7 hours ago, Flatbush Flyer said:

And, this matter is a job best handled by the attorney who represented your sister in the custody matter. 

THIS!  Definitely this.  This is likely getting medical advice from an amateur.

[SRF]

54 minutes ago, clo said:

This is likely getting medical advice from an amateur.

 

I always get my medical advice from an amateur.

 

At least, they always tell me they are practicing.   

 

😄 😄 😄 😄 😄 😄 😄

 

Edited July 21, 2019 by SRF

[Julie MacCoy]

I believe that if you took a closed-loop Alaskan cruise from Seattle, your niece might not need a passport.  However, there would be some shore excursions that she wouldn't be allowed to take, as they require a passport.  But make sure that the custody agreement does not say that both of your niece's parents have to provide written consent for her to take the cruise.  From what you wrote, it appears that your sister will not be going on the cruise with you and your parents and your niece.

[martincath]

Since we're talking about a 13 year old child, cruising one-way into Canada, unfortunately the Canadian rules do trump the US ones so a passport is indeed required AND a copy of their birth certificate. You always need to comply with the tightest set of rules whether that's one of the countries visited or the cruiseline or airline conditions of carriage.

 

Direct from the horses mouth info can be found on the Canadian government website here. Note the lack of any 'or' statement in the lists, it's BOTH passport AND copy of birth cert, then the potential additional documentation required for single parent/non-parent/solo-traveling-child circumstances as required. Canada tightened up rules on one parent bringing kids over the border a few years back, as we were the most common first-stop country for parental kidnappings of US kids and that's not the sort of rep anybody wants!

 

It's possible that an RT Seattle cruise might allow the normal WHTI requirements to apply - i.e. that a Minor who's <16 years old only needs their birth certificate - but I'd want to verify that directly with Canadian CBSA, since they're the folks responsible for allowing people over the border or not (on an RT cruise with a short Victoria stop folks who are denied entry usually just have their ship card flagged so they can't sneak off though, so changing to this type of cruise might remain a viable possiblity).

 

As to the custody thing and how it impacts the trip - that definitely needs knowledge of exactly what the paperwork states! If OPs sister does have sole custody, then she alone should be able to sign for passport application and assign appropriate rights to OP/the grandparents to ensure the kid can have medical matters dealt with and of course has approval to travel, but I personally wouldn't assume that just because Mom says that Dad only has supervised visitation rights that he does not also retain some other rights - I'd want to see the paperwork myself, and if it's not completely obvious then consulting with the relevant attorney is definitely the way to go on that front.

 

Of course if you have all the paperwork sorted in advance no doubt CBP and CBSA won't ask for any of it, but if you fail to have it and somebody does demand paperwork showing that a minor can be taken out of the country by aunt/grandparents expect to be denied entry. Each cruiseline usually has their own preferred form that covers permission to bring a Minor along without their parent/guardian too. I have friends in both the sole- and joint-custody after divorce camps, as well as widowed, who have crossed the US/Canadian border with their kid and all have had major hassles from agents on both sides of the fence including being denied permission to cross until documents were acquired - now they always travel with the complete package of paperwork and while they don't get checked every time it still happens occasionally.

[clo]

1 hour ago, SRF said:

At least, they always tell me they are practicing.   

 

You've obviously noticed that doctors and lawyers practice forever whereas many professional no longer have to just practice, they can just do their jobs for real 🙂

[capriccio]

Welcome to cruise critic and what a wonderful gift for your folks and niece!

 

You've received excellent advice about contacting a lawyer but once you get all that straightened out (thinking positively), there are other documents that you also should carry:

• a permission to travel form signed by your sister to take your niece. 
• medical consent form including copies of the front and back of her insurance card.
• if you intend to take an excursions that require parental signature, you'll need a temporary power of attorney.

Check out this article for more information:  https://traveltips.usatoday.com/forms-need-son-travel-someone-else-108821.html

[brillohead]

10 minutes ago, martincath said:

Since we're talking about a 13 year old child, cruising one-way into Canada, unfortunately the Canadian rules do trump the US ones so a passport is indeed required AND a copy of their birth certificate. You always need to comply with the tightest set of rules whether that's one of the countries visited or the cruiseline or airline conditions of carriage.

 

Direct from the horses mouth info can be found on the Canadian government website here. Note the lack of any 'or' statement in the lists, it's BOTH passport AND copy of birth cert, then the potential additional documentation required for single parent/non-parent/solo-traveling-child circumstances as required. Canada tightened up rules on one parent bringing kids over the border a few years back, as we were the most common first-stop country for parental kidnappings of US kids and that's not the sort of rep anybody wants!

 

It's possible that an RT Seattle cruise might allow the normal WHTI requirements to apply - i.e. that a Minor who's <16 years old only needs their birth certificate - but I'd want to verify that directly with Canadian CBSA, since they're the folks responsible for allowing people over the border or not (on an RT cruise with a short Victoria stop folks who are denied entry usually just have their ship card flagged so they can't sneak off though, so changing to this type of cruise might remain a viable possiblity).

 

As to the custody thing and how it impacts the trip - that definitely needs knowledge of exactly what the paperwork states! If OPs sister does have sole custody, then she alone should be able to sign for passport application and assign appropriate rights to OP/the grandparents to ensure the kid can have medical matters dealt with and of course has approval to travel, but I personally wouldn't assume that just because Mom says that Dad only has supervised visitation rights that he does not also retain some other rights - I'd want to see the paperwork myself, and if it's not completely obvious then consulting with the relevant attorney is definitely the way to go on that front.

 

Of course if you have all the paperwork sorted in advance no doubt CBP and CBSA won't ask for any of it, but if you fail to have it and somebody does demand paperwork showing that a minor can be taken out of the country by aunt/grandparents expect to be denied entry. Each cruiseline usually has their own preferred form that covers permission to bring a Minor along without their parent/guardian too. I have friends in both the sole- and joint-custody after divorce camps, as well as widowed, who have crossed the US/Canadian border with their kid and all have had major hassles from agents on both sides of the fence including being denied permission to cross until documents were acquired - now they always travel with the complete package of paperwork and while they don't get checked every time it still happens occasionally.

^^^^THIS^^^^

You can get the passport without the father if the custody paperwork is worded that way.

And you will need the passport for this cruise.

And you will need a notarized letter from the mother giving you permission to take the minor child on the trip.  

 

[mlc19802009]

5 hours ago, martincath said:

Since we're talking about a 13 year old child, cruising one-way into Canada, unfortunately the Canadian rules do trump the US ones so a passport is indeed required AND a copy of their birth certificate. You always need to comply with the tightest set of rules whether that's one of the countries visited or the cruiseline or airline conditions of carriage.

 

Direct from the horses mouth info can be found on the Canadian government website here. Note the lack of any 'or' statement in the lists, it's BOTH passport AND copy of birth cert, then the potential additional documentation required for single parent/non-parent/solo-traveling-child circumstances as required. Canada tightened up rules on one parent bringing kids over the border a few years back, as we were the most common first-stop country for parental kidnappings of US kids and that's not the sort of rep anybody wants!

 

It's possible that an RT Seattle cruise might allow the normal WHTI requirements to apply - i.e. that a Minor who's <16 years old only needs their birth certificate - but I'd want to verify that directly with Canadian CBSA, since they're the folks responsible for allowing people over the border or not (on an RT cruise with a short Victoria stop folks who are denied entry usually just have their ship card flagged so they can't sneak off though, so changing to this type of cruise might remain a viable possiblity).

 

As to the custody thing and how it impacts the trip - that definitely needs knowledge of exactly what the paperwork states! If OPs sister does have sole custody, then she alone should be able to sign for passport application and assign appropriate rights to OP/the grandparents to ensure the kid can have medical matters dealt with and of course has approval to travel, but I personally wouldn't assume that just because Mom says that Dad only has supervised visitation rights that he does not also retain some other rights - I'd want to see the paperwork myself, and if it's not completely obvious then consulting with the relevant attorney is definitely the way to go on that front.

 

Of course if you have all the paperwork sorted in advance no doubt CBP and CBSA won't ask for any of it, but if you fail to have it and somebody does demand paperwork showing that a minor can be taken out of the country by aunt/grandparents expect to be denied entry. Each cruiseline usually has their own preferred form that covers permission to bring a Minor along without their parent/guardian too. I have friends in both the sole- and joint-custody after divorce camps, as well as widowed, who have crossed the US/Canadian border with their kid and all have had major hassles from agents on both sides of the fence including being denied permission to cross until documents were acquired - now they always travel with the complete package of paperwork and while they don't get checked every time it still happens occasionally.

Thank you everyone for the help! This post especially has been helpful. 

 

Im meeting with my father this week to look at the custody paperwork myself and Im going to call the toll free number for the passport office to see if they think the paperwork is worded sufficiently to get a passport without having the fathers signature. 

 

The attorney that handled custody is actually a family friend so if all else fails then I’ll reach out to him this week too. 

 

Im definitely glad I got to work on this early since it isn’t turning out to be a black-and-white situation. 

 

Again, thank you everyone!

[clo]

4 minutes ago, mlc19802009 said:

The attorney that handled custody is actually a family friend so if all else fails then I’ll reach out to him this week too. 

 

At least as a final step I'd run this all by him.  Government employees aren't always 100%.

[MicCanberra]

Good luck.

[zqvol]

OP - First step is to go to the passport office with the legal documents you have. That may or may not be enough for a passport, it all depends on what the order says. If that doesn't work, the next step is to ask both parents to agree. If that doesn't work, THEN and only then do you spend the money for an attorney, because that is going to cost you more than the cruise.

[clo]

1 hour ago, zqvol said:

OP - First step is to go to the passport office with the legal documents you have. That may or may not be enough for a passport, it all depends on what the order says. If that doesn't work, the next step is to ask both parents to agree. If that doesn't work, THEN and only then do you spend the money for an attorney, because that is going to cost you more than the cruise.

The attorney who handled the divorce is a family friend.

[ontheweb]

9 hours ago, SRF said:

 

I always get my medical advice from an amateur.

 

At least, they always tell me they are practicing.   

 

😄 😄 😄 😄 😄 😄 😄

 

Sometimes they say they spent the last night at a Holiday Inn.

[zqvol]

15 hours ago, clo said:

The attorney who handled the divorce is a family friend.

and if he handles something for free the friendship dies.

[clo]

20 minutes ago, zqvol said:

and if he handles something for free the friendship dies.

I never said he didn't charge them.

[SRF]

23 hours ago, clo said:

You've obviously noticed that doctors and lawyers practice forever whereas many professional no longer have to just practice, they can just do their jobs for real 🙂

 

Exactly

[SRF]

23 hours ago, martincath said:

Since we're talking about a 13 year old child, cruising one-way into Canada, unfortunately the Canadian rules do trump the US ones so a passport is indeed required AND a copy of their birth certificate. You always need to comply with the tightest set of rules whether that's one of the countries visited or the cruiseline or airline conditions of carriage.

 

Realize that the link does not address cruise passengers.

 

Many times, the rules are less stringent for cruise passengers.

 

My SO is a non-US citizen.  For several places we have cruised, she would normally need a visa for that country.  But as a cruise passenger, a visa is not required.

 

 

[martincath]

2 hours ago, SRF said:

...Many times, the rules are less stringent for cruise passengers...

Absolutely true, and it's not just cruises - crossing a land border can have different rules than arriving by sea or by air, and some countries don't care so much about the method as the duration of the stay with exemptions to Visa requirements for 'in transit' passengers up to a short 1 or 2 day visit.

 

But even if the Immigration rules of a given country are loosened for cruisers that makes zero difference to my point -  if e.g. the country says 'no passport required' but the cruiseline says 'passport or we do not let you onto our ship' in their T&C then complying with the most stringent set of rules remains correct; it's just a different rule that is the tightest in some specific cases. In every case it's unfortunately down to the individual traveler to verify what they need to comply with, Travel Agents and carriers always have weasel words in their contracts to shift the responsibility, and of course all of us on here could be talking utter nonsense too 😉

 

If you're actually aware of a Minor-specific exemption for one-way cruising into Canada, rather than just making a general point about cruise rules sometimes differing, I'd appreciate a link so I can give more correct info in the future if this topic comes up again. To the best of my knowledge the only exemptions in US & Canada for cruises in terms of required documents are for Round Trips, otherwise it's the same for Land as Sea across the board.

[SRF]

See, the cruise lines rules, if more stringent, rule.    Or more globally, the most stringent rules apply.

 

When we did our NE/Canada cruise, we all had passports.  But I do not remember any requirements to have passports.  And I have not heard of any requirements mentioned here on CC for a cruise with stops in Canada.

 

Here is what Royal Caribbean says:

 

The following requirements are for sailings from a United States port to the Caribbean, Bahamas, Bermuda, Canada/New England, Hawaii, Alaska, Panama Canal and Mexico.

United States and Canadian Citizens:

You MUST have one of the following:

• A valid United States or Canadian passport. For additional United States passport information visit the United States Department of State travel information website or the Passport Canada website. Visa Central is the passport and visa service that we recommend, should our guests need passport and visa assistance. You may contact Visa Central for all your passport needs. Visa Central can obtain passports in as little as one day. US Residents, please contact VisaCentral online at www.visacentral.com/royalcaribbean, email rci@visacentral.com or call 800-858-8579, and be sure to reference Royal Caribbean account 44988 for reduced service fees. Canada residents, please contact www.visacentral.ca/royalcaribbean, email rci@visacentral.com or call 8888-665-9956, and be sure to reference Royal Caribbean account 10026 for reduced service fees.

- OR -

• Western Hemisphere Travel Initiative (WHTI) or Trusted Travel Documents. Click here for a list of all approved documents.

So it looks like Canada does not require a passport for US citizens on a cruise.