Nieuw Amsterdam Azipod Technical Discussion

[chengkp75]

5 hours ago, NavArch64 said:

A bit more information from Lloyds Register of Shipping (LR) concerning Nieuw Amsterdam. A Conditional Short Term Passenger Ship Safety Certificate (Harmonized) 2058922 was issued by surveyor Santiago Pomares of the Miami Office on Form Number 1736 with an Issue Date of 13 Jan 2020 and an Expiry Date of 02 Feb 2020. Again, it would appear that LR  was not going to allow this situation to continue past 02 Feb 2020. But, we don't know all the details. How this might compare to the Oosterdam and Carnival Miracle cases cited above would require more information about those particular situations as well. One interesting retrospective question … under what LR certification did she sail from 21 Dec 2019 until 13 Jan 2020?

 

PS Lloyds Register of Shipping is, of course, a different organization than Lloyds of London, even though both may trace their roots back to the same coffee shop in the 1600's.. 

 

 

4 hours ago, HappyInVan said:

 

2007???

 

Can you remember what the problem was back then?

 

I'm not an engineer or an expert. I'm not going to second guess management or the experts. It is sufficient that the Immediate Action Flag was raised this December, and HAL will comply. 

 

IMO, the red flag was prelude to a rating change. Therefore, it was generous of LR to extend the flag for 40 days. But, no more than a day after NA is scheduled for the shipyard.

And, again, having actual experience with class surveyors, I can say that if the parts were not available until late in 2020, then the condition of class would be extended until then.  The correction date was reached in agreement between the surveyor and the cruise line as to the actual date that repair was practicable.  If it is found that a drydock was not available until several weeks after the 2 Feb date, a further short term certificate would be issued.  Trust me that no class society is going to cause a ship that is completely seaworthy to stop operation to await a dock space or parts availability.

 

As for the period between 21 Dec and 13 Jan, she is continuing to sail on her certificate of class, and the existing certificate of passenger safety.  Both were noted as having conditions of class noting the failed azipod.  Again, the short term passenger safety certificate was determined based on dock and part availability.  There would have been some discussion between Lloyd's "technical department" (that department that devises the rules for classification, not the surveyors themselves), and HAL regarding the failure and proposed repair, and then the technical department would direct the surveyor to issue the short term certificate.

[RuthC]

Chengkp75, thank you so very much for your thorough, knowledgeable, patient, posts on this subject. We are fortunate to have you as a contributor on this forum.  You have clarified many questionable statements with actual facts and educated many of us in the process. 

[HappyInVan]

5 hours ago, RedneckBob said:

If I understand what was said in this thread will I earn an extra Mariner Star, 1 to 2 Star ?

 

Sorry, you just get A for effort.

 

As a passenger, you don't need to understand seamanship or insurance. Just remember that the Captain is on your side. He'll get you to your destination safely.

 

LR and the insurance company share the same interests as you. To avoid being front page news. The example of the Alaska Ranger shows what can go wrong eventually with an uninsured and un-inspected vessel. Won't happen to you on HAL today.

 

 

 

Edited January 21, 2020 by HappyInVan

[Brulefisher]

Is one week enough time to get the azipod changed out? I'm booked on the 2/8 sailing. 

[Copper10-8]

13 minutes ago, Brulefisher said:

Is one week enough time to get the azipod changed out? I'm booked on the 2/8 sailing. 

 

Yes; she'll be ready for your 08 Feb sailing

[SumoCitrus]

[NavArch64]

I have 3 questions for the Genie …..

 

1. Will the installation of the used, spare azipod at the Grand Bahama shipyard in Freeport be completed successfully by Feb 7 and in accordance with non-conditional LR certification?

2. Will the damaged starboard azipod unit be able to be repaired successfully in Freeport or will a new azipod unit have to be manufactured by ABB in Europe and delivered to an appropriate shipyard?

3. When and where will either the repaired or the new azipod unit be successfully installed to restore Nieuw Amsterdam to her "original" operating condition.

 

I look forward to SumoCitrus posting the answers.

 

[OzCanuck]

14 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

Lloyd's Register is, as noted by others, not the same as Lloyd's of London.  And even Lloyd's of London is not an insurance company, but instead an insurance broker that brings customers and insurance providers together.

Sorry, I actually am an insurance guy. Lloyd’s of London is not a broker; it is the umbrella organization that provides insurance capacity through (currently) 85 syndicates.  When policies are placed with Lloyd’s the Insurer listed on the policy is Underwriters at Lloyd’s (or some variation) and then the subscribing syndicates and their respective percentages are signed and listed. 
 

To access Lloyd’s capacity one must approach them through a registered Lloyd’s broker, which may have agreements or relationships with one or multiple syndicates.

 

Maybe just  semantics but it is an important differentiation. 

[NavArch64]

To OzCanuck …. excellent description of Lloyds of London.

[NavArch64]

The HQ of Lloyds of London on Lime Street is about 500 feet from the HQ of Lloyds Register on Fenchurch Street in the City of London. We can probably call them organizational cousins … descendant from the same coffee shop roots. Must have been interesting to watch back in 1760 or so.

[chengkp75]

1 hour ago, NavArch64 said:

I have 3 questions for the Genie …..

 

1. Will the installation of the used, spare azipod at the Grand Bahama shipyard in Freeport be completed successfully by Feb 7 and in accordance with non-conditional LR certification?

2. Will the damaged starboard azipod unit be able to be repaired successfully in Freeport or will a new azipod unit have to be manufactured by ABB in Europe and delivered to an appropriate shipyard?

3. When and where will either the repaired or the new azipod unit be successfully installed to restore Nieuw Amsterdam to her "original" operating condition.

 

I look forward to SumoCitrus posting the answers.

 

1.  It should be done in time, barring unforeseen circumstances, or it wouldn't be scheduled that way.  And, yes, it will meet the LR certificate of class just as the port side (perhaps older, and longer since overhaul) azipod meets the certificate of class without any conditions.

 

2.  The azipod may be repaired in Freeport, or it may be shipped back to ABB in Norway, it depends on the service contract, the facilities in Freeport, and/or the requirements of ABB for worldwide stocking of spares.   The spare azipod will now become NA's starboard azipod until/if it ever needs replacement.

 

3.  There will be no return of a repaired azipod, nor a new one.  When the overhauled spare azipod is installed, it is considered as if it were the original, since it was overhauled to manufacturer's specs.  There is no difference between the azipod that will be installed, and the one that is removed (other than one works and the other doesn't currently), so class treats them identically.

[Jersey42]

We were on the Nieuw Amsterdam last week.  When we we were getting off the ship at our first port (San Juan) two gentlemen with roll aboard suitcases were getting on.  Both were wearing ABB shirts. Just curious what they will be doing and is it likely they will remain on board until the dry dock.  I never made it to the captain's Q&A session, or I would have asked then.

[NavArch64]

To Jersey42 …. excellent observation. Could be that they will represent ABB and oversee the starboard azipod unit removal and replacement at the Grand Bahama shipyard on Feb 2-7 in Freeport.

[chengkp75]

16 minutes ago, Jersey42 said:

We were on the Nieuw Amsterdam last week.  When we we were getting off the ship at our first port (San Juan) two gentlemen with roll aboard suitcases were getting on.  Both were wearing ABB shirts. Just curious what they will be doing and is it likely they will remain on board until the dry dock.  I never made it to the captain's Q&A session, or I would have asked then.

 

4 minutes ago, NavArch64 said:

To Jersey42 …. excellent observation. Could be that they will represent ABB and oversee the starboard azipod unit removal and replacement at the Grand Bahama shipyard on Feb 2-7 in Freeport.

Yes, these will be the tech reps who will supervise the shipyard workers for the repair of the azipod.  They are onboard to start dismantling whatever is needed to facilitate the replacement, like disconnecting the azimuth motors and the electrical cables.

[HappyInVan]

34 minutes ago, NavArch64 said:

To Jersey42 …. excellent observation. Could be that they will represent ABB and oversee the starboard azipod unit removal and replacement at the Grand Bahama shipyard on Feb 2-7 in Freeport.

 

AFAIK, the high-priced specialists would report directly to the shipyard. More likely that the two men are just technicians preparing the pod to be dismounted at the shipyard. It could be a tight schedule to finish the work by February 7th. After all, the vessel had almost a week at Freeport and the work could not be completed.

 

I am a little surprised that the ABB guys boarded the ship last week. Perhaps, they'll finish and disembark this Saturday?

[chengkp75]

8 minutes ago, HappyInVan said:

 

AFAIK, the high-priced specialists would report directly to the shipyard. More likely that the two men are just technicians preparing the pod to be dismounted at the shipyard. It could be a tight schedule to finish the work by February 7th. After all, the vessel had almost a week at Freeport and the work could not be completed.

 

I am a little surprised that the ABB guys boarded the ship last week. Perhaps, they'll finish and disembark this Saturday?

This is based on your experience in shipyard repairs?  The "high priced specialists" are those guys in ABB shirts.  I'm not surprised at all that they boarded last week, but then again, I've only worked with their type for years.  They will not necessarily be "doing" any work, they will be directing the ship's crew on what needs to be done to prep for the pod renewal.  The ship had a week in Freeport, without a reconditioned pod, so there is no comparison to what is being done in this coming week.  But, I bow to your experience.

Edited January 21, 2020 by chengkp75

[NavArch64]

Back to history a bit … This all began in Lloyd's Coffee House, owned by Edward Lloyd, sometime in 1686 on Tower Street in the City of London. This establishment was a popular place for sailors, merchants, and ship-owners, and Lloyd catered to them with reliable shipping news. The coffee house soon became recognised as an ideal place for obtaining marine insurance.  I guess that no one could imagine an azipod at Edward Lloyd's coffee shop. All they knew was sail.

[AlanF65]

1 hour ago, NavArch64 said:

Back to history a bit … This all began in Lloyd's Coffee House, owned by Edward Lloyd, sometime in 1686 on Tower Street in the City of London. This establishment was a popular place for sailors, merchants, and ship-owners, and Lloyd catered to them with reliable shipping news. The coffee house soon became recognised as an ideal place for obtaining marine insurance.  I guess that no one could imagine an azipod at Edward Lloyd's coffee shop. All they knew was sail.

And the "what would a prudent or reasonable man do" test on investments goes back to when ships captains trusted their income and home finances to a person back home to take care of their finances for the year or two they were away.

 

[SumoCitrus]

12 hours ago, NavArch64 said:

I have 3 questions for the Genie …..

 

1. Will the installation of the used, spare azipod at the Grand Bahama shipyard in Freeport be completed successfully by Feb 7 and in accordance with non-conditional LR certification?

2. Will the damaged starboard azipod unit be able to be repaired successfully in Freeport or will a new azipod unit have to be manufactured by ABB in Europe and delivered to an appropriate shipyard?

3. When and where will either the repaired or the new azipod unit be successfully installed to restore Nieuw Amsterdam to her "original" operating condition.

 

I look forward to SumoCitrus posting the answers.

 

 

I'll do my best:

 

1. Who knows? Actually, who cares? This isn't Popeye's Tech Nerd Sailor Barn. You took a wrong turn somewhere.

2. Does this have something to do with the food at the Lido???

3. Again, who cares? It floats, doesn't it? I am no more concerned with an azipod than I am with the toilet flush mechanism in the Crows Nest head.

 

 

[LocoLoco1]

Q: Is it fair to say that the 'Weak Link' in Azipod construction is typically the thrust bearing and it's attendant seals?? Further, how does Azipod reliability compare with traditional screw/rudder propulsion of the recent past?

[old mike]

 sumo citrus said

3. Again, who cares? It floats, doesn't it? I am no more concerned with an azipod than I am with the toilet flush mechanism in the Crows Nest head.

 

Now that is an important point, the next washrooms are quite a hike from the crows nest and there's  nothing worse than a sudden onset "travellers gut" and a none functioning washroom with the inevitible yellow tape or cone blocking the access. It's the kind of situation that was the inspiration for the Monty Python Ministry of Silly Walks sketch.

 

Edited January 22, 2020 by old mike

[HappyInVan]

3 hours ago, LocoLoco1 said:

Q: Is it fair to say that the 'Weak Link' in Azipod construction is typically the thrust bearing and it's attendant seals?? Further, how does Azipod reliability compare with traditional screw/rudder propulsion of the recent past?

 

There's a small discussion in 2014 about the problem,. Our resident experts offered their opinion here...

 

https://boards.cruisecritic.co.uk/topic/1934681-azipod-problems/

 

 

Yes, the azipod innovation has a limited track record, and is still being evaluated. Basically, a complex primarily mechanical system is being replaced by a complex primarily electrical system.

 

Yes, bearings has been the most common operating problem. However, one NA passenger reported the captain saying that they had never encountered the current problem before. Something about the motor burning out?

 

Interested in the parameters of the design? Here's a paper from marine engineering students...

 

http://www.dieselduck.info/machine/02 propulsion/2006 Introduction to Azipod Propulsion.pdf

 

It is likely that there will be more azipod vessels as the technology improves, and costs fall. That said, ABB is still on a steep learning curve. Each new improvement needs time to prove itself.

 

In that light, cruise ships need to be operated with safety as a priority over $$$.

 

 

[chengkp75]

6 hours ago, LocoLoco1 said:

Q: Is it fair to say that the 'Weak Link' in Azipod construction is typically the thrust bearing and it's attendant seals?? Further, how does Azipod reliability compare with traditional screw/rudder propulsion of the recent past?

Yes, the thrust bearing is the leading failure component.  The reason for this is the space available in the pod.  For a ship with shafted propellers, the thrust bearing would be around 6+ feet in diameter to give enough bearing area to absorb the full thrust of the propeller (this bearing transfers the entire force of the propeller to the ship to move its total weight through the water), and since it is inside the ship, size doesn't matter, and the ancillary equipment for the thrust bearing (oil pumps, sumps, filters, etc) can be grouped around and below the bearings, this equipment is simpler.  In a pod, the thrust bearing to accept the same thrust will be 1-2 feet smaller in diameter to be able to fit inside the pod with all the other stuff in there, so increasing the unit load (pounds per square inch) on the bearing metal, and you also cannot have large oil sumps below the bearing to collect the oil, and need an additional pump to get the oil from the bearing in the pod up to the sump and filter, etc.  The increase in unit loading of the bearing is where the problem lies, as there is ongoing study of the metallurgy of the bearing material and design of the bearing surface and shape to obtain the optimum oil film required to minimize bearing wear.

 

As for the increase in azipod vessels, I don't see them expanding out of their current market of passenger vessels and specialty vessels.  Passenger vessels (cruise ships) require huge amounts of propulsion power, and redundant systems (multiple propellers) and the use of azipods shows a great benefit here, as the capital cost for two azipods is less than two propulsion motors, and likely two variable pitch propellers, shafting, two rudders, four steering motors, and 2 or 3 stern thrusters.  "Specialty" vessels like ice breakers and tugs already use azipod technology, because of again the simplicity of the installation, less stuff to get damaged by ice, more thrust in variable directions than can be gotten from props, rudders, and thrusters (particularly at speeds over 5 knots, where tunnel thrusters lose effectiveness), and other factors.  As far as cruise ships are concerned, yes, there will continue to be nearly all large cruise ships built with azipods, even though there was a return to shafted propellers back a few years when azipod issues were first coming up, and also smaller ships don't see the cost advantage at building that larger ships do, so smaller ships like Viking may continue to use shafted propellers.

 

The vast bulk of ocean shipping, however, gain very little, and lose cost in installing azipods, since you go from a single engine that is bolted directly to the propeller shaft and to a fixed pitch propeller, and a rudder and two steering motors, to having to have a diesel generator large enough to power the pod (so add a generator to the same engine as before), and then the variable frequency drive to change to electricity to allow the pod motor to turn at different speeds, and then the pod, along with a less than desirable stern design (for a cargo ship), and you have a much more complicated and costly initial investment in propulsion.

 

As for reliability of azipods vs shafted propellers, there have been failures of both types over the last few years, but the failures of shafted systems are in the electrical systems (and cruise ship propulsion, of whatever design, has been primarily electrical for decades) and not in the bearings.  Some of these electrical failures of shafted systems can be repaired easily and quickly, and some require large repairs as the Carribean Princess did last year.  I would say that the comparative rate of failure that affects either a cruise ship's speed or takes it out of service, is about 6-8 azipod failures for every shafted propeller failure (and I believe I'm being conservative), and this with most of the shafted ships being older than the azipod ships.

[ski ww]

Thanks for all the good info on azipods, nice to learn from some one who knows what they're talking about. 

[HappyInVan]

All that said, passengers do not need to know the technical details. What's important is that LR and the insurance industry have stepped in. Should they force every azipod failure to be repaired ASAP, this will force ABB to seriously address the reliability issues. Passengers shouldn't have to undergo an entire season/year with just one pod working.

 

LR has the big picture and have access to the industry experts. None of us in this forum are azimuth/azipod experts. Please speak up if you are!!!