Cruise lines may not receive any of the stimulus money?

[TinkBellaMom]

My husband was reading me an article about the cruise industry and the stimulus pkg.  It seems they may not be eligible because the ships are not registered in US and many of the crew members are not US citizens.

I never really thought about the registry part, but aren’t there many companies that are based in the US and have folks from different countries?

[matj2000]

There is already multiple threads started on this subject....

[TinkBellaMom]

2 minutes ago, matj2000 said:

There is already multiple threads started on this subject....

I’m afraid I didn’t see them, my bad.  Sorry to have bothered you.

[orville99]

41 minutes ago, TinkBellaMom said:

My husband was reading me an article about the cruise industry and the stimulus pkg.  It seems they may not be eligible because the ships are not registered in US and many of the crew members are not US citizens.

I never really thought about the registry part, but aren’t there many companies that are based in the US and have folks from different countries?

It has nothing to do with where a company is based, where its ships are registered, or the nationality of its employees, but where it is incorporated. All of the cruise lines are incorporated in countries other than the U.S. They would have to solicit assistance from the country where that incorporation exists according to the language in the bill. For example, RCL is incorporated in Liberia, its ships are registered in the Bahamas, and its employees come from across the globe. Disney Cruise Line is incorporated in Great Britain. Carnival is incorporated in Panama.

Edited March 28, 2020 by orville99

[TinkBellaMom]

Thank you for the explanation, makes more sense to me now.

[txart]

True, the cruise lines are incorporated in other countries, but they do employ over 400,000 people in this country not counting the business they create for the airlines, hotels, restaurants, taxis,  etc. I'd say they are very important to the US economy.

[ARandomTraveler]

8 minutes ago, txart said:

True, the cruise lines are incorporated in other countries, but they do employ over 400,000 people in this country not counting the business they create for the airlines, hotels, restaurants, taxis,  etc. I'd say they are very important to the US economy.

That’s kind of like saying all the manufacturing plants in China are very important to the US economy. If they’re struggling, would you be ok with US tax dollars going to China to keep the manufacturing plants open and make sure their employees are paid?

 

Sure, the cruise lines are part of the US travel industry, but the airlines and hotels are paying the taxes from the tourism, not the cruiseline. I don’t have all the information about how the money is flowing, but with the information that I do understand, I don’t think we should reward companies who choose to avoid paying US taxes by incorporating in other countries. I’d rather help the airlines and hotels if we’re trying to help bailout the travel industry. I love cruising- but I’m against supporting a company financially who avoids helping the US economy when they’re doing well. 

[txart]

Do those manufacturing plants you refer to employ over 400,000 people in the US plus create the need for the hotels, airlines etc.?

[orville99]

1 hour ago, txart said:

True, the cruise lines are incorporated in other countries, but they do employ over 400,000 people in this country not counting the business they create for the airlines, hotels, restaurants, taxis,  etc. I'd say they are very important to the US economy.

Back-stopping the U.S. based employees (who all pay U.S. income taxes) is a separate issue from providing a bailout to the corporation that employs them if that corporation is incorporated elsewhere. The bill provides the same protections and support to those employees as it does to every other person employed in the U.S.

[ARandomTraveler]

3 hours ago, txart said:

Do those manufacturing plants you refer to employ over 400,000 people in the US plus create the need for the hotels, airlines etc.?

If they did employ half a million Americans, or ANY Americans for that matter, would that make it any different? I don't think so.
 

There are other protections in place for the American workers who lose their jobs. And the cruise lines are not solely responsible for the profits of airlines or hotels. And- those hotels and airlines that ARE incorporated in America will get assistance if needed, whether the cruise industry gets a bailout or not.
 

I still don’t think the cruiseline deserves a dime. If Royal Caribbean went bankrupt and/or shut down I’d be disappointed, but maybe the next company who decides to start up a cruiseline will think twice about where they want to incorporate. 
 

Edited March 29, 2020 by ARandomTraveler

[ARandomTraveler]

 

7 hours ago, txart said:

Do those manufacturing plants you refer to employ over 400,000 people in the US plus create the need for the hotels, airlines etc.?

And actually- as I’m thinking about it. Isn’t Europe’s hotels, airlines and tourism industry getting the same benefit from those cruise tourist dollars as America? How come you’re not expecting Europe to kick in for the bailout? 

[AL3XCruise]

7 hours ago, txart said:

Do those manufacturing plants you refer to employ over 400,000 people in the US plus create the need for the hotels, airlines etc.?

That number is incorrect, by a MASSIVE margin.  To be fair, the actual number is hard to find because the cruise lines prefer discussing estimated economic impact; the direct numbers are marginal.  RCCL, for instance, employs around 8,000 land based employees worldwide.

 

The Cruise Line Industry Association, and industry lobbying group, claims that 400,000 US jobs are supported by the cruise industry.  They, however, do not provide any information about how they generated these numbers.  I think it is fair to assume that is because they make many assumptions that help further their agenda.

 

Furthermore, they (of course) don't discuss which of these jobs would easily transition to supporting people taking domestic land vacations in lieu of cruising.

 

Keep in mind, someone vacationing in Florida for week spends 7 nights in a hotel, 7 days eating at local restaurants, 7 days shopping in Florida stores, etc... versus a cruiser that spends one pre-cruise night in a hotel and has a meal or two.  I'm not saying that certain people wouldn't be hurt by a reduction in cruising, but it isn't nearly as bad as what the cruise lines put out.

 

In short, I have nothing against the cruise lines and how they do business.  I have stock in one, and intend to take more cruises.  It is a simple question of how to do the must good for the most people with limited money.  We need to spend limited US dollars to generate the most possible US jobs and US economic growth, and that isn't with a cruise line.

[mugtech]

They can get their own loans by putting up ships as security.  No cruise line is too big or too important to the US economy to not be allowed to fail.  Capitalism at its best.

[compman9]

The hundreds of thousands of jobs supported by cruise lines will be food and drink suppliers, which are often also global tax avoiding companies, just like the cruiselines

 

Sure, small businesses will also suffer like florists, but the American tax system is such that if you live and work abroad all your adult life. If you sell your property and make an equity profit, you will be liable to tax in the US

 

How is that fair, yet RCI do all they can to avoid paying staff a living wage and pay no US corporation taxes, get a bail out?

 

 

[compman9]

13 hours ago, matj2000 said:

There is already multiple threads started on this subject....

 

So?

[mugtech]

14 hours ago, matj2000 said:

There is already multiple threads started on this subject....

Thanks for sharing your experience, strength and hope.

[chengkp75]

14 hours ago, txart said:

Do those manufacturing plants you refer to employ over 400,000 people in the US plus create the need for the hotels, airlines etc.?

The cruise lines do not employ 400k people in the US.  Their industry may support that many jobs, just like the overseas manufacturing plants support jobs in the US like longshoremen, truck drivers, and Best Buy salespeople.  That doesn't mean they are entitled to financial aid.  Those jobs in the US that are "supported" by the cruise line will receive aid from the stimulus package, but the foreign cruise lines will not.

 

And just to be clear.  Foreign corporations, for the most part, that make earnings in the US have to pay corporate taxes on those earnings.  However, section 883 of the USC, allows foreign operators of ships and airplanes exemption from US taxes on earnings made by those assets.  So, the cruise lines and airlines are a bit unique to foreign corporations as far as US taxes are concerned.

[matj2000]

7 hours ago, compman9 said:

 

So?

 

 

SO?

[M&A]

3 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

The cruise lines do not employ 400k people in the US.  Their industry may support that many jobs, just like the overseas manufacturing plants support jobs in the US like longshoremen, truck drivers, and Best Buy salespeople.  That doesn't mean they are entitled to financial aid.  Those jobs in the US that are "supported" by the cruise line will receive aid from the stimulus package, but the foreign cruise lines will not.

 

And just to be clear.  Foreign corporations, for the most part, that make earnings in the US have to pay corporate taxes on those earnings.  However, section 883 of the USC, allows foreign operators of ships and airplanes exemption from US taxes on earnings made by those assets.  So, the cruise lines and airlines are a bit unique to foreign corporations as far as US taxes are concerned.

The cruise industry has a huge impact on the economy of Florida.     If you look at how many cruises depart Florida ports during the winter and the amount of passengers that sail in a week it's enormous.    I think I counted 100 cruises departing Florida/Galveston in a typical month of March.   Most cruises ships with up to 5,000 people on board (passengers/crew)for each sailing multiply by 100,  each week the food industry must supply food for over 100,000 people.

I would imagine that farmers are growing a lot of food for the cruise industry.

Then you figure most passengers will take a hotel pre-cruise,  the restaurants/bars near the cruise terminals, the taxis.    How many seats on airlines flying in and out of Fort Lauderdale/Miami are cruise passengers.    Just twenty sailing a week out of Fort Lauderdale/Miami mean over 60,000 people in an out of the airports.

Hundreds of workers at the ports unloading/loading supplies.     Ships take on a lot of fuel,  the fuel is shipped and stored at the ports,  the cruise lines paying for the fuel and the taxes from the fuel.   

Then you have RCI headquarters in Miami with close to 4,000 employees.   Carnival probably twice that number of employees in Miami,  all paying taxes.

Just because the ships are registered in foreign ports doesn't mean that the cruise industry won't pay taxes or don't have a huge impact on the economy.

[chengkp75]

17 minutes ago, M&A said:

 Ships take on a lot of fuel,  the fuel is shipped and stored at the ports,  the cruise lines paying for the fuel and the taxes from the fuel. 

I've commented on most of the points you make in other posts, either here or other threads.  But this one is the first time this has come up, and in fact, no, they don't pay any tax on the fuel, but then again, neither does a US flag ship, because it is engaged in "interstate or foreign commerce" and therefore exempt from sales or fuel taxes.

[M&A]

1 hour ago, chengkp75 said:

I've commented on most of the points you make in other posts, either here or other threads.  But this one is the first time this has come up, and in fact, no, they don't pay any tax on the fuel, but then again, neither does a US flag ship, because it is engaged in "interstate or foreign commerce" and therefore exempt from sales or fuel taxes.

Just reading about the NCL "Pride of America"  the only US registered cruise ship in the world.

Because it's US registered,  the crew has to be US citizens for US residents.   Wait staff, cabin staff etc all American.     When a ship is US flagged it's subjected to US Labor Laws.

 

Someone on another thread was talking about temporarily making ships US registered for the Alaska cruises,  but it would mean the entire crew that is mainly drawn from countries like Philipines, India, Malaysia etc,  wouldn't be allowed to work.   It would be impossible to find US citizens to fill the positions.    They wouldn't be able to find sailors to sail the ships either.

 

[chengkp75]

11 minutes ago, M&A said:

Just reading about the NCL "Pride of America"  the only US registered cruise ship in the world.

Because it's US registered,  the crew has to be US citizens for US residents.   Wait staff, cabin staff etc all American.     When a ship is US flagged it's subjected to US Labor Laws.

 

Someone on another thread was talking about temporarily making ships US registered for the Alaska cruises,  but it would mean the entire crew that is mainly drawn from countries like Philipines, India, Malaysia etc,  wouldn't be allowed to work.   It would be impossible to find US citizens to fill the positions.    They wouldn't be able to find sailors to sail the ships either.

 

POA is not the "only US registered cruise ship in the world", but it is the only large US flag cruise ship in the world.  Blount Adventure cruises, and American Cruise Line, as well as Lindblad/National Geographic have smaller expedition style US flag cruise ships.

 

Crewing up a few cruise ships for use in Alaska would put a strain on the supply of US officers and crew, but they could definitely obtain all licensed officers (deck and engine) and all deck and engine crew needed to fill those billets.  The largest problem with finding US hotel staff for a cruise ship is that while the hotel staff on foreign flag cruise ships are not credentialed merchant mariners, the USCG requires that anyone on a US flag ship that has assigned "emergency duties" (whether that is on a fire team or directing traffic for passengers), must be a fully credentialed mariner.  So, the entire crew of the POA have USCG documents, which requires shoreside safety and lifesaving training, and a TWIC card which requires an FBI background check.  All of this takes time and money to obtain.