who has my money ?? (Delta & WestJet question)

[cruise kitty]

hoping for some help & guidance here please,  with hopefully a minimum of berating.. :)

 

Purchased nonrefundable  air through Celebrity from LAX to YVR. with return from SEA to LAX,  they booked through Delta, but the LAX-YVR leg is operated by WestJet (flight DL7036,  flight was to be in mid May)

 

Obviously our Alaska cruise is cancelled now,  & U.S. citizens can't fly to Canada so WestJet has cancelled my flights...  I have a confirmation #, but when I go on Deltas site, there's no longer a record of my now cancelled flight...  Nothing on WestJet site either  (it showed two weeks ago on Delta's site)  Celebrity says that nonrefundable flights need to be handled directly with the carrier...  but how can I do this as there doesn't seem to be any record of my booking other than my boarding pass that I printed out ??

 

Just trying to figure out where to go with this or am I just ****out of luck?

 

thanks in advance,  & no, I didn't buy insurance....  I always do that right before I make final payment & unfortunately at that point anything to do with Covid was already excluded (timing, lol )

[omeinv]

25 minutes ago, cruise kitty said:

hoping for some help & guidance here please,  with hopefully a minimum of berating.. 🙂

 

Purchased nonrefundable  air through Celebrity from LAX to YVR. with return from SEA to LAX,  they booked through Delta, but the LAX-YVR leg is operated by WestJet (flight DL7036,  flight was to be in mid May)

 

Obviously our Alaska cruise is cancelled now,  & U.S. citizens can't fly to Canada so WestJet has cancelled my flights...  I have a confirmation #, but when I go on Deltas site, there's no longer a record of my now cancelled flight...  Nothing on WestJet site either  (it showed two weeks ago on Delta's site)  Celebrity says that nonrefundable flights need to be handled directly with the carrier...  but how can I do this as there doesn't seem to be any record of my booking other than my boarding pass that I printed out ??

 

Just trying to figure out where to go with this or am I just ****out of luck?

 

thanks in advance,  & no, I didn't buy insurance....  I always do that right before I make final payment & unfortunately at that point anything to do with Covid was already excluded (timing, lol )

Interesting question.

 

My first thought is to look at how the charge appeared on your credit card statement at the time of purchase.  Did the air portion show the merchant as Celebrity, Delta, WestJet or perhaps Delta and WestJet?

 

If it was Celebrity, then they should be able to either initiate the refund, or provide you with documentation that either or both airlines are your point of contact.

 

If the airlines show on your card statement as the merchants then you should be dealing directly with them.  If the Flights are code-shared, you may only have one of the two airlines to deal with, if not, you'll have both. 

 

Given the situation you've described, it sounds like your best course would be do just enough to establish that you've tried to resolve the refunds directly with the merchant/s.  A phone call where you document the date, time and perhaps the person with whom you spoke will be sufficient.  Then initiate a dispute through your credit card. 

 

Harris

Denver, CO

[Bo1953]

My thoughts include have you tried calling each airline to have them give some direction?

 

Thinking that the airline of your first flight might be the real point of contact and ticketer for all flights... just thinking outside the box before disputing the charge, which is a distinct approach for sure.

 

I believe you will be able to track it down, just might take some time, but unless you are not Sheltering In Place, many of us have that... 😉

 

Good luck and let us know how you make out.

 

bon voyage

[cruise kitty]

7 minutes ago, omeinv said:

Interesting question.

 

My first thought is to look at how the charge appeared on your credit card statement at the time of purchase.  Did the air portion show the merchant as Celebrity, Delta, WestJet or perhaps Delta and WestJet?

 

If it was Celebrity, then they should be able to either initiate the refund, or provide you with documentation that either or both airlines are your point of contact.

 

If the airlines show on your card statement as the merchants then you should be dealing directly with them.  If the Flights are code-shared, you may only have one of the two airlines to deal with, if not, you'll have both. 

 

Given the situation you've described, it sounds like your best course would be do just enough to establish that you've tried to resolve the refunds directly with the merchant/s.  A phone call where you document the date, time and perhaps the person with whom you spoke will be sufficient.  Then initiate a dispute through your credit card. 

 

Harris

Denver, CO

 

Thank you,  I called several weeks ago, & at that time they told me to contact Celebrity,   of course Celebrity told me to contact the carrier...  I decided to wait & see if things would change (at that time airlines weren't giving refunds yet)   I'm going to to what you said, call Delta & WestJet, & take notes, then try contacting cruise air  :)

[omeinv]

Just now, cruise kitty said:

 

Thank you,  I called several weeks ago, & at that time they told me to contact Celebrity,   of course Celebrity told me to contact the carrier...  I decided to wait & see if things would change (at that time airlines weren't giving refunds yet)   I'm going to to what you said, call Delta & WestJet, & take notes, then try contacting cruise air  🙂

I'm curious, how does the charge appear on your statement?

 

Harris

Denver, CO

[cruise kitty]

9 minutes ago, Bo1953 said:

My thoughts include have you tried calling each airline to have them give some direction?

 

Thinking that the airline of your first flight might be the real point of contact and ticketer for all flights... just thinking outside the box before disputing the charge, which is a distinct approach for sure.

 

I believe you will be able to track it down, just might take some time, but unless you are not Sheltering In Place, many of us have that... 😉

 

Good luck and let us know how you make out.

 

bon voyage

 Hi Bo,  yes we've been sheltering in place, going on 5 weeks now    time flies when you're drinking wine lol.   But seriously, hope your'e doing well.   I think I'll call cruise air tomorrow :)

[zdcatc12]

I have never done air through a cruise line, but does the charge on the credit card show as the airline or the cruise line? The reason that I am asking is because the land portion of my Gate1 tour got cancelled by them and later the flight got cancelled by Delta. I never received notice from Delta that they cancelled, I only knew because I checked my future reservations and it wasn't there anymore. Because I paid Gate 1 and they paid Delta, they got the airfare refund, not me. So if the charge was showing as Celebrity and not Delta, they would have gotten the refund and you would have to get a refund from them.

Edited April 14, 2020 by zdcatc12
clarity

[cruise kitty]

1 minute ago, omeinv said:

I'm curious, how does the charge appear on your statement?

 

Harris

Denver, CO

  Hi there, I just looked it up, it's charged to Celebrity Cruises...  so I think that answers my question, they must have my money, right?   Or would they have paid the airlines?

[omeinv]

Right, they initiated the charge, so they'll get the charge-back when you dispute it.  The fair thing for you to do is give them one call, asking them for both flight's Record Locator Number (the 6-character alpha-numeric designator for each flight).  With, that give each airline a call, and attempt to arrange for a refund.  Again, document the date and time of the call,and hopefully names of people with whom you spoke.  I would be quite surprised if these calls lead to a satisfactory outcome, but it will give you the foundation you need to initiate the dispute through your credit card, which will get you your money. 

 

Harris

Denver, CO

[cruise kitty]

2 minutes ago, omeinv said:

Right, they initiated the charge, so they'll get the charge-back when you dispute it.  The fair thing for you to do is give them one call, asking them for both flight's Record Locator Number (the 6-character alpha-numeric designator for each flight).  With, that give each airline a call, and attempt to arrange for a refund.  Again, document the date and time of the call,and hopefully names of people with whom you spoke.  I would be quite surprised if these calls lead to a satisfactory outcome, but it will give you the foundation you need to initiate the dispute through your credit card, which will get you your money. 

 

Harris

Denver, CO

 

Thank you,  I do have the record locator number (Celebrity's)  I'm going to start calling tomorrow..  hopefully I won't have to do a dispute :)   You've been very helpful :)

[omeinv]

@cruise kitty Ah, that record locator number may not be the same one the airlines use, even though it's formatted that way.  You would want the airline's actual number.  You mentioned that you'd printed a boarding pass for the Delta flight, that will have the Delta Record Locator Number on it. 

 

I frequently book flights using United points, on the UAL website, but on other airlines.  When I do, I get a United confirmation number that looks like a RLN, but the other airline's RLN is what actually gets me to the reservation.  You need the airline's own RLNs. 

 

Harris

Denver, CO

[FlyerTalker]

Forget about all this talk of locators.  Were you actually ticketed, with a 13 digit ticket number?  That's the key data point in all of this.  You can have a locator but not be ticketed.

 

From that,  much depends on what the fare rules are for the ticket.  Was this a consolidator ticket, which DL sold to Celebrity which then resold to you, or did Celebrity buy a published fare ticket for you?  If the former, then you are a flight customer of Celebrity.  If the latter, Celebrity merely acted as an agent purchasing the ticket from the airline for you - and you are an airline customer.  And if you weren't ever ticketed, well that's another kettle of fish, again depending on what you were supposedly buying.

 

As for WestJet - if your ticket was issued by DL, then WestJet has no part in any refund process.  It's a DL ticket.

 

Finally, I find it difficult to believe that you have a boarding pass for your flight, as that would only be issued within 24 hours of departure.  Just what documentation do you have, and who issued it to you?

 

So, there's a lot more detail that is needed before any kind of informed opinion can be given to you.

 

And for omeinv -- it's not a RLN but rather a PNR (Passenger Name Record).

[cruise kitty]

@FlyerTalker Hi, sorry I definitely misstated on boarding pass, what I have is my confirmation with seat assignments for both of us, as well as confirmation of bags we paid for & our TSA pre √   as for the rest...  who knows lol   I've never done what I would call a "cheap flight"  before...  & luckily, if it turns out I can't get a refund (I would settle for a credit towards a future flight)  we will be ok, these were pretty cheap tickets, & in the scheme of things it isn't a loss that we couldn't handle.....  I just so happen to have a ton of free time on my hands so I'm going call flights by Celebrity while I drink Sangria :)

[waterbug123]

18 hours ago, cruise kitty said:

@FlyerTalker Hi, sorry I definitely misstated on boarding pass, what I have is my confirmation with seat assignments for both of us, as well as confirmation of bags we paid for & our TSA pre √   as for the rest...  who knows lol   I've never done what I would call a "cheap flight"  before...  & luckily, if it turns out I can't get a refund (I would settle for a credit towards a future flight)  we will be ok, these were pretty cheap tickets, & in the scheme of things it isn't a loss that we couldn't handle.....  I just so happen to have a ton of free time on my hands so I'm going call flights by Celebrity while I drink Sangria 🙂

 

Did you pay Celebrity for your tickets yet?  I believe you said you did.  So, when you call Celebrity, ask them if your flight had been ticketed. Meaning, had they actually paid Delta for the ticket and gotten a 13 digit ticket number?   If so, get the ticket number and be sure it starts with 006.  If the 13 digits start with 006 that confirms that the ticket was issued on Delta stock and Delta is who you need to contact, not West Jet.  If your flights were never ticketed, then Celebrity never paid Delta/West Jet and still has your money and they should be able to handle your refund on their own, without you needing to contact an airline.

[em-sk]

6 hours ago, waterbug123 said:

 

Did you pay Celebrity for your tickets yet?  I believe you said you did.  So, when you call Celebrity, ask them if your flight had been ticketed. Meaning, had they actually paid Delta for the ticket and gotten a 13 digit ticket number?   If so, get the ticket number and be sure it starts with 006.  If the 13 digits start with 006 that confirms that the ticket was issued on Delta stock and Delta is who you need to contact, not West Jet.  If your flights were never ticketed, then Celebrity never paid Delta/West Jet and still has your money and they should be able to handle your refund on their own, without you needing to contact an airline.

 

Just to add to this, if the first three digits are 573 then WestJet is the issuing airline and has your money.  

 

In the old days (when tickets were paper).  The airline that issued the ticket had your money until the airline operating the flight pulled the coupon from the ticket for that flight at boarding and a few days later submitted it to the issuing airline for reimbursement.  Now that mostly happens electronically.  

 

 

 

 

 

[cruise kitty]

thanks everyone,  I still have not gotten through to Celebrity to find out if I was ticketed & if so, what the numbers are....  I promise I'll let everyone know once I actually find out :)

 Again,  everyone has been so helpful !

[Ontario Cruiser]

Infinity Apr 25th crossing cruiseair for BCN to YYZ May 9th. I have been talking to both Westjet and Celebrity too many times to count Westjet also cancelled all flights from Barcelona

Celebrity cancelled cruise and I was told my non refundable air ticket would be refunded on Mar 24, & 25 

Then Celebrity said no refund then told me to ask Westjet for the waiver code which was given to cruiseair Mar 25th plus an email to the cruiseair  supervisor. April 1 received cruise refund but not air. I phoned Westjet Apr 15th and was informed that they had not been paid from Celebrity. So not even credit to Westjet  travel bank 

Now Cruiseair said they would let me know in 3days

So in the meantime I have put in dispute with my credit card It was Celebrity who billed us not Westjet

I will report back the outcome

OntarioCruiser

[cruise kitty]

@Ontario Cruiser  thanks for posting, that's the same run around that I got last month, but I had Delta thrown into the mix as well....  I'm about to 'nail my courage to the sticking point' as it were, & make another phone call to cruise air....

 

After that I'll have the joy of trying to move my $200 OBC from my cancelled cruise to next May's  cruise  (from my credit card rewards)

[FlyerTalker]

3 hours ago, Ontario Cruiser said:

I phoned Westjet Apr 15th and was informed that they had not been paid from Celebrity. So not even credit to Westjet  travel bank

 

One of those pitfalls of buying air from the cruiseline.  What most likely happened is that you had a RESERVATION on WestJet for your flight (issued by Celebrity), but you did not have a TICKET (which is issued by the airline).  Money had not changed hands between Celebrity and WestJet, so neither had the ticket passed from the airline.

 

Folks get a "confirmation", see the six-character locator and think that they are booked and ticketed and good to go.  However, until such time that you have a definite 13-digit ticket number, it's still in limbo.  Is it a flim-flam or just playing on the lack of knowledge in the customer?  I think it's the latter.

 

It's a similar situation with the cruise itself.  Until such time that you are provided with the actual "cruise ticket", you have a booking only.

 

If nothing else good comes from this shutdown, perhaps a better understanding of just what happens with "reservations" "confirmations" and "ticketing" will result.

[Ontario Cruiser]

We do have the 13 digit ticket number

Ontario Cruiser

[FlyerTalker]

5 hours ago, Ontario Cruiser said:

We do have the 13 digit ticket number

Ontario Cruiser

 

Then Celebrity is playing games on its payables to WestJet.  Say your prayers.

[cruise kitty]

27 minutes ago, FlyerTalker said:

 

Then Celebrity is playing games on its payables to WestJet.  Say your prayers.

 

Oh crap, that's kind of what I thought 

[Ontario Cruiser]

I finally got the correct answer and it was from Westjet not ChoiceAir no refund But we have 13 months to use the open ticket from May 9th but we have to book through ChoiceAir.  Celebrity did refuse to refund after telling me they would. When ChoiceAir phoned me back never told me we had open tickets

Hope my credit card accepts my dispute claim. OntarioCruiser

[klfrodo]

2 hours ago, Ontario Cruiser said:

I finally got the correct answer and it was from Westjet not ChoiceAir no refund But we have 13 months to use the open ticket from May 9th but we have to book through ChoiceAir.  Celebrity did refuse to refund after telling me they would. When ChoiceAir phoned me back never told me we had open tickets

Hope my credit card accepts my dispute claim. OntarioCruiser

Those are 2 more reasons to add to the No column of the "Should I buy from Choice Air, Air2Sea, Fly2Fun" questions.

 

Then again, it won't matter in 3 months when the questions start coming forward.

"But they guarantee" and "but I'll save $200"

Consumers just want the cheapest.

Edited April 18, 2020 by klfrodo

[waterbug123]

4 hours ago, Ontario Cruiser said:

I finally got the correct answer and it was from Westjet not ChoiceAir no refund But we have 13 months to use the open ticket from May 9th but we have to book through ChoiceAir.  Celebrity did refuse to refund after telling me they would. When ChoiceAir phoned me back never told me we had open tickets

Hope my credit card accepts my dispute claim. OntarioCruiser

 

Wait, back up a minute....your flight was from BCN to YYZ, right?  And it was canceled by WestJet, right? That should qualify for a refund persuant to EU261 rules since the flight would have departed from the EU and was canceled by the airline.  I realize there was a complication in that at one point WestJet said Celebrity hadn't actually paid them for the ticket, but they say you now have an open ticket so I assume Celebrity ultimately paid them so that shouldn't be an issue.  I would call WestJet back and tell them you want a REFUND in accordance with EU261 rules.  Airlines, particularly those that are not EU-based, will often try to get around that but must adhere to it.    Unless there is something I'm missing here, I think they (WestJet) are still giving you the runaround!