Banned for filing a claim with your Credit Card Co?

[dog]

13 hours ago, gmjc2 said:

Our Princess 60 days are up June 13th so we will wait till then but that's all they get.

Our Cunard cruise has been 65 days so I filled with the Credit Card company at the 62 mark.

I consider that very fair.  Our two TA's have done nothing for us. One sent the "party line" e.mail with the " so many refunds" excuse. The other has not contacted us at all--that's the Cunard..

When was your cruise date?  Have you tried calling Princess yourself to ask status of refund? Keep all receipts, cancellation, emails and note dates you and TA contacted Princess. Your decision. Check terms for your credit card before waiting/ disputing 

[gmjc2]

12 hours ago, cruzsnooze said:

I wouldn't wait until June 13, they may have filed bankruptcy by then and you'll be unable to file a dispute.

We are worried about that but the Credit Card company expects us to wait the 60 days. They ask that you make a good faith effort to obtain the refund according to the terms of the contract. With all these people filing a dispute I am concerned about the CC companies having financial issues themselves!.

 

Edited May 20, 2020 by gmjc2

[dog]

2 minutes ago, gmjc2 said:

We are worried about that but the Credit Card company expects us to wait the 60 days. They ask that you make a good faith effort to obtain the refund according to the terms of the contract. With all these people filing a dispute I am concerned about the CC companies having financial issues themselves!.

 

Yep good move. 

[gmjc2]

Just got e.mail from the airline ( not related to Princess claims) that they have processed my refund and it will be credited to the card soon! As the C card company has already given me a credit I guess it has resolved itself. When it shows up that is!!!

[Hlitner]

On 5/16/2020 at 1:33 PM, dag144 said:

I watched a YouTube today.  The vlogger claimed that one could be banned from future cruises for taking this action, that is filing a dispute with your credit card company for the return of your fare when the cruise line cancelled your cruise.  This is the case with Princess' cancellations related to the current Covid19 situation.

This sounds are fetched, but if it's true it's akin to being banned from a crooked poker game!

Like somebody said, lots of misinformation.  And if I found out that any cruise line (or other vendor) was following such a practice I would be the one doing the banning!  They would be banned from ever getting my future business and I would also make that suggestion to our friends.

 

Hank

[gmjc2]

Just received this e.mail from PVP at Princess in response to my request for an update.

 

Given the volume of requests and the care being dedicated to make sure each booking is handled accurately, we appreciate your patience during this time. Refunds will be processed and prioritized by sailing date of the cancelled voyage (earliest ones first) and FCCs will be created in the order of when the guest preference was received. Please know that we are doing everything in our power to expedite where possible.

[PrincessLuver]

Finally, received a notice today that my credit card company ruled in my favor and I was awarded all of my money back for the fare I had paid Princess.  Dispute was filed April 28, 2020 and received notice after sending in all the documentation of charges and the insincere emails Princess sent me of when I would receive my refund......and I have the 25% FCC's in my Princess account also that were offered with Option #1.....YES!!!!

[Coral]

5 minutes ago, PrincessLuver said:

Finally, received a notice today that my credit card company ruled in my favor and I was awarded all of my money back for the fare I had paid Princess.  Dispute was filed April 28, 2020 and received notice after sending in all the documentation of charges and the insincere emails Princess sent me of when I would receive my refund......and I have the 25% FCC's in my Princess account also that were offered with Option #1.....YES!!!!

Option #2?

 

Congrats on the dispute outcome. Which bank?

Edited May 25, 2020 by Coral

[PrincessLuver]

10 minutes ago, Coral said:

Option #2?

 

Congrats on the dispute outcome. Which bank?

 

Princess Visa Barclays

[rbt001]

CASH FLOW is probably the primary reason why Princess --and possibly the eight other Carnival Corporation brands-- could be dragging their feet.  When a merchant, such as Princess submits refunds/credits to customer credit cards, the money typically is debited from a bank account the next business day while it may take another few days for the credit to flow through to the card holder's account.    In other words, the cash has to be in the bank for the cruise line to issue refunds.

 

Yes, someone did point out that Carnival Corp did raise 6.4 Billion dollars.  I read the same in a Barron's article which stated that $4 Billion of the 6.4 Billion carries interest at a rate of 11.5%, which is steep.

 

I also went to look at Carnival Corporation's Annual 10-K report released in January 2020 for the fiscal year ending November 30, 2019.  It's a document well over 100 pages, dense with footnotes and statements explaining the numbers.  For investment purposes, it's critical to read all those details to fully understand the numbers.  Also note that Carnival does not provide detailed financial breakouts for each of its nine cruise line brands.  The numbers presented are consolidated for all operations.  

 

Here are a couple of high-level observations that puts the $6.4 Billion cash raised into perspective.

 

As of 11/30/19 Carnival reported that it held FOUR BILLION SEVEN HUNDRED THIRTY-FIVE MILLION DOLLARS of customer deposits.

 

The same report shows cash on hand of just $518 million and that during this current fiscal year the current portion of long-term debt, payable between 12/2019 to 11/2020 is $1.596 Billion.

 

The annual report shows that Carnival brought in close to $21 Billion last year, but after paying operating expenses, it was left with about $5.4 Billion of cash (that's operating income plus depreciation & amortization,) but before any debt payments are made.

Again, note that these figures are at one point in time:  as of November 30, 2019.  And since the current fiscal year began with the holiday period, typically marketed by fewer discounts and higher guest counts/greater number of on-board buying units as families cruise together, the year may have started well.

 

But with the "no-sail order" came an abrupt halt to the $20+ Billion Annual Cash Flow.  Yet there remains a significant amount of cash burn.  The Barron's article from 4/24/20 reports analyst's consensus that Carnival is burning an estimated $830 Million monthly.  

 

CREDIT CARD CHARGEBACKS-  The first responsibility of the cardholder is to make a reasonable attempt to work out the dispute with the merchant, and then to give the merchant a "reasonable" period of time to rectify the situation.  I would expect every credit card issuer to entertain the dispute when you tell them the reason is:  "Goods and/or services not received as promised.  They canceled my cruise."  

 

Bank Card issuers (Visa/Mastercard) must follow strict rules set-up for customer disputes.  And that's why the first question they always ask is "Did you contact the merchant."  If you haven't attempted to first resolve this with the merchant, then they can't take your request.

 

When they do take your request, the merchant must also follow strict rules.  The most ominous rule for the merchant involves a timely reply.  If the merchant does not respond to the customer dispute by the deadline given, then in almost all cases the matter is resolved in the customer's favor with any temporary credit becoming permanent. 

 

An overwhelmed system may mean cardholders win disputes by default. 

 

There's nothing to say a cardholder has to wait 60 or 90 days for a refund.  That there's a pandemic doesn't prevent the merchant from acting timely.    At the very least, the card issuer should provide a temporary credit while the dispute is investigated.

 

 

 

 

 

[PrincessLuver]

4 minutes ago, rbt001 said:

 

An overwhelmed system may mean cardholders win disputes by default. 

 

There's nothing to say a cardholder has to wait 60 or 90 days for a refund.  That there's a pandemic doesn't prevent the merchant from acting timely.    At the very least, the card issuer should provide a temporary credit while the dispute is investigated.

 

 

Very informative post on credit card disputes.....I waited for Princess to issue the refund but once they missed several pay points they set for themselves I was happy I filed a credit card dispute and submitted all documentation the bank required.  That put the credit card company/bank in action and they successfully went to bat for me.  

 

If I had not done so I am sure I would be waiting a long time to get the monies back that Princess owed us.  

[as400guy]

1 hour ago, rbt001 said:

CASH FLOW is probably the primary reason why Princess --and possibly the eight other Carnival Corporation brands-- could be dragging their feet.

 

Two things stood out when I read Carnival's SEC Filings from March to current:

 

1. The ~$4 Billion bond sale was structured so that *ALL* funds were escrowed (and the interest meter started) in early April.,  The money was to be made available to Carnival in four installments between April and October (I think it was October).  RELEASE of the funds was contingent on Carnival satisfying the borrowers that the collateral for each installment was perfected (owned by Carnival, not encumbered by other loans or indentures and properly accounted for in the books).  The bonds are senior to all other debt not specifically secured by physical assets.

My theory is that while refunds were not being made Carnival was scrambling to scrounge up enough assets to secure the $4 billion in bonds.  If the books were not in order that could have taken a ton of legal wrangling.

So, if my theory is correct Carnival did not have the available cash to pay refunds.  Thus the delay in actual payments after "processing".

 

2.  With almost $5 billion in customer deposits and only $518 million in cash Mr. Arnold probably slept restlessly.   If I understand cruise line accounting deposits are only on the books as a liability, not cash being held for future benefit of the customers.   Let's see, if cash from new customers is used to pay for services for old customers, isn't there a name for that kind of "scheme"?

 

All this makes me glad a sold my Carnival stock (and took a huge loss) because I think their financial condition has nowhere to go but down at this point.

 

Thanks for the analysis, RBT!

 

BTW, I'm not a lawyer or accountant, so take my speculations for what they're worth!

 

[Fredette]

On 5/17/2020 at 3:40 AM, oceanlovinmama said:

Wrong....you should be though.  They have promised you your money back, but you aren’t giving them the time to follow through.  Do you know how many people they are dealing with, and with a reduced staff? Give them a break...but my agency may not allow us to do business with clients who do this.  It takes away any protected commission and technically the supplier(cruiseline) could come after us for payment.  It’s a huge headache for people who can’t be understanding and patient.  

"Understanding and patient" - does that include those who were ignored for two months?  Princess have behaved reprehensibly and would have met with more understanding and patience had they been open, up front and honest.  

[Fredette]

On 5/18/2020 at 2:02 AM, oceanlovinmama said:

You know.....people are cruel.  Look at you.  Being a big bully and all.  I'm just saying to be patient with these cruise lines.  I've not heard of one refund going over 90 days.  They are coming in around 60 or so.  These are unprecedented times, those times call for different measures.  I bet when the price goes down,  you demand they do that immediately, or you want that on board credit they promised  you to show up NOW on your account.  It's different when it's the other way around isn't it?  All I was saying is to think of your TA IF you used one and to be patient with the cruise lines.  Wow....that is all.

Well, I'm past the 60 day point, although not at the 90 day point, so what you are saying is that I WILL have my refund by the 90th day?  

[dog]

On 5/16/2020 at 1:40 PM, oceanlovinmama said:

Wrong....you should be though.  They have promised you your money back, but you aren’t giving them the time to follow through.  Do you know how many people they are dealing with, and with a reduced staff? Give them a break...but my agency may not allow us to do business with clients who do this.  It takes away any protected commission and technically the supplier(cruiseline) could come after us for payment.  It’s a huge headache for people who can’t be understanding and patient.  

Ban away. Waiting over 60 days, while seeing later sailings get refunds, is asking too much. 
 

TA s needed to add pressure to get Princess to do the right thing They have changed the way they are doing refunds and added so much confusion in the most difficult times of our lives. 
There are still people on cc who are waiting for refunds from March cancellations. 

[datone]

5 hours ago, Fredette said:

Well, I'm past the 60 day point, although not at the 90 day point, so what you are saying is that I WILL have my refund by the 90th day?  

 

Well I'm at 90 days and nothing.   

[Coral]

9 hours ago, dog said:

Ban away. Waiting over 60 days, while seeing later sailings get refunds, is asking too much. 
 

TA s needed to add pressure to get Princess to do the right thing They have changed the way they are doing refunds and added so much confusion in the most difficult times of our lives. 
There are still people on cc who are waiting for refunds from March cancellations. 

This is one situation where I don't think the TAs have much power. Mine has called multiple times on my behalf and has not gotten anywhere except for "we are busy, we are doing things from home, we don't know when, be patient".

[rbt001]

12 hours ago, as400guy said:

 

Two things stood out when I read Carnival's SEC Filings from March to current:

 

1. The ~$4 Billion bond sale was structured so that *ALL* funds were escrowed (and the interest meter started) in early April.,  The money was to be made available to Carnival in four installments between April and October (I think it was October).  RELEASE of the funds was contingent on Carnival satisfying the borrowers that the collateral for each installment was perfected (owned by Carnival, not encumbered by other loans or indentures and properly accounted for in the books).  The bonds are senior to all other debt not specifically secured by physical assets.

My theory is that while refunds were not being made Carnival was scrambling to scrounge up enough assets to secure the $4 billion in bonds.  If the books were not in order that could have taken a ton of legal wrangling.

So, if my theory is correct Carnival did not have the available cash to pay refunds.  Thus the delay in actual payments after "processing".

 

2.  With almost $5 billion in customer deposits and only $518 million in cash Mr. Arnold probably slept restlessly.   If I understand cruise line accounting deposits are only on the books as a liability, not cash being held for future benefit of the customers.   Let's see, if cash from new customers is used to pay for services for old customers, isn't there a name for that kind of "scheme"?

 

All this makes me glad a sold my Carnival stock (and took a huge loss) because I think their financial condition has nowhere to go but down at this point.

 

Thanks for the analysis, RBT!

 

BTW, I'm not a lawyer or accountant, so take my speculations for what they're worth!

 

 

Reading what you described in your paragraph #1, my immediate thoughts were this funding relates to or coincides with the four ship deliveries scheduled for 2020.  I then went back to the SEC filing you referenced, and it too leads me to think that the quartering of the $4 Billion into four releases dates, which seem to be subject to a loan-to-value ratio that does not exceed 25%, means that as the company takes ownership of the completed vessel from the shipyard, placing it on the books as an asset, more funds can be released as the vessel is pledged as additional collateral.  

 

Before reading all of this, a few months back when the shutdown started, my initial vision was a surrealistic view of Carnival Brand (in particular) ships being lifted on a tow truck to be hauled away by the Repo Man.  

 

Reading that they've agreed to borrow money with contingencies for a 25% LTV ratio leads me to believe that their ships are not as highly leveraged as I thought.  Though I'm pretty sure I read they depreciate their ships over a 30 year life.  My first impression is that no one would want to sail on a ship that old.  But, surprise:  Carnival Fantasy just celebrated 30 years, with delivery in 1990.  

 

All this being said, I'm not sure I'd be waiting 60 or 90 days for my credit card refund; in fact, I'm sure I would have disputed it at the 7 day mark from my request for refund.  

 

 

[as400guy]

1 hour ago, rbt001 said:

my initial vision was a surrealistic view of Carnival Brand (in particular) ships being lifted on a tow truck to be hauled away by the Repo Man.

 

Great visual!!!

 

I'm not sure the $4 billion is intended to finance the ships due to be delivered. 

 

The 4/2/2020 8-K includes this statement:

"The Company expects to use the net proceeds from the offering of the Notes and the Equity Offering for general corporate purposes and to pay fees and expenses relating thereto"

It makes sense that those ships' financing was committed before the first steel was welded in the ship yard.

 

The 4/8/2020 8-K describes detail of the $4 billion Notes.  The indenture appears to describe ALL assets of Carnival and Carnival PLC's subsidiaries as collateral.  These Senior Notes encumber all CCL assets that are not otherwise pledged as collateral in other indentures or notes.  I think I recall from B-School 50 years ago that Senior Notes are in fact Senior; all you other non-secured creditors can just line up behind them to get paid back.

I think the Escrow Agreement is saying that 25% of the $4 billion will be released as soon as the lenders are satisfied that the collateral available is valued at at least $1 billion for each $1 billion of loan funds released, not for each ship delivery.  In other words, Carnival gets NO CASH (but gets to pay interest) until they perfect 100% collateral for each installment.   I think that's why few refunds were PAID until the last week or so.   Some of the loans were released by the Escrow Agent.

 

Desperate companies do desperate deals.

 

I'm still laughing at the Repo Man.  🤣

 

BTW I disputed the CC charge on 3/26/2020,  14 days after the cancellation by Princess.  I'm not worried about being banned because I'm counting on other cruise lines working hard to poach customers by matching Cruise Line Status!

 

 

[nbsjcruiser]

On 5/16/2020 at 2:40 PM, oceanlovinmama said:

Wrong....you should be though.  They have promised you your money back, but you aren’t giving them the time to follow through.  Do you know how many people they are dealing with, and with a reduced staff? Give them a break...but my agency may not allow us to do business with clients who do this.  It takes away any protected commission and technically the supplier(cruiseline) could come after us for payment.  It’s a huge headache for people who can’t be understanding and patient.  

Couple of points.

1. If you believe that Princess is having a tough time processing these refunds, I've got some swampland for sale for you. PRINCESS STOPPED THE REFUNDS IN MID MARCH! They created a mess for themselves and now they're lying about it. You sound like you are a TA - do you really think that when you log on to Princess One Source and cancel a cruise that it has to go to a person to manually cancel it and initiate a refund? You really believe that? Another TA on another thread confirmed my suspicions that Princess did indeed do this so please, stop trying to defend the indefensible. 
2. Let me tell you something - neither Princess or your travel agency is in any position to be picky about who they let on a cruise ship. Princess offered me a free cruise - what does that tell you? For crying out loud they're at the point where they'd let hobos on a ship provided they still had some of their stimulus check left.
3. If you do choose not to take a booking from someone, its your loss, not theirs. Plenty of fish and ships in the sea. 

[rbt001]

2 hours ago, as400guy said:

 

Great visual!!!

 

I'm not sure the $4 billion is intended to finance the ships due to be delivered. 

 

The 4/2/2020 8-K includes this statement:

"The Company expects to use the net proceeds from the offering of the Notes and the Equity Offering for general corporate purposes and to pay fees and expenses relating thereto"

It makes sense that those ships' financing was committed before the first steel was welded in the ship yard.

 

The 4/8/2020 8-K describes detail of the $4 billion Notes.  The indenture appears to describe ALL assets of Carnival and Carnival PLC's subsidiaries as collateral.  These Senior Notes encumber all CCL assets that are not otherwise pledged as collateral in other indentures or notes.  I think I recall from B-School 50 years ago that Senior Notes are in fact Senior; all you other non-secured creditors can just line up behind them to get paid back.

I think the Escrow Agreement is saying that 25% of the $4 billion will be released as soon as the lenders are satisfied that the collateral available is valued at at least $1 billion for each $1 billion of loan funds released, not for each ship delivery.  In other words, Carnival gets NO CASH (but gets to pay interest) until they perfect 100% collateral for each installment.   I think that's why few refunds were PAID until the last week or so.   Some of the loans were released by the Escrow Agent.

 

Desperate companies do desperate deals.

 

I'm still laughing at the Repo Man.  🤣

 

BTW I disputed the CC charge on 3/26/2020,  14 days after the cancellation by Princess.  I'm not worried about being banned because I'm counting on other cruise lines working hard to poach customers by matching Cruise Line Status!

 

 

 

So I did go back to read a good portion of the notes that accompanied the financial statements.  From what I gather, CCL has had a strong balance sheet and they boast a little more than $12 Billion of cash available through financing commitments they have in place.  And some of those funds are tied directly to new ship delivery.  However, it appears that none of that borrowing activity requires pledging any of their ships as collateral.  The debt does contain covenants which relate to the continued good health of their balance sheet. 

 

The new $4 Billion debt, however, does pledge the ships, as well as other assets, and according to the their annual report, the net value is more than $38 Billion: 

 

The Secured Notes and the related guarantees are secured by first-priority security interests in the collateral, which generally includes (i) shares of capital stock of each subsidiary guarantor, subject to customary limitations; (ii) 86 of the vessels currently owned or operated by Carnival Corporation, Carnival plc and the other guarantors including assignments of insurance claims and earnings in respect of such vessels; (iii) the material intellectual property currently owned or controlled by Carnival Corporation, Carnival plc and the other guarantors; (iv) other assets of Carnival Corporation, Carnival plc and the other guarantors consisting of inventory, trade receivables, intangibles, computer software and casino equipment, in each case associated with the vessels being mortgaged; and (v) other assets on which Carnival Corporation, Carnival plc and the other guarantors may elect from time to time to grant a lien securing the Secured Notes (clauses (i) through (v), collectively, the “Collateral”), subject to permitted liens and certain exclusions and release provisions as further described in the Indenture and the related security documents. 

 

Carnival is giving them first position in everything, but clearly on the list, the 86 vessels are the most valuable.  And yes, in first-priority interest in "perfected collateral" I take to mean there are no other claims or liens against the collateral.  Interesting how the wording doesn't account for the four vessels coming into service, which I don't think would be included yet on the balance sheet.

 

The way I read the release of funds to Carnival, as four $1 Billion distributions from escrow, is that they are solely contingent upon perfecting the collateral and not exceeding a LTV ratio of 25% of the $4 Billion debt.  In the simplest of terms, once Carnival has provided documented mortgages in good order for at least $16 Billion, all the money can be released.  

 

Tongue-in-cheek:  now I see the vision of Arnold Donald looking for the Car Title for the 30 year old Carnival Fantasy.  "Honey, have you seen the title?  I need to give it to the bank."

 

Oh, and as for a ban, that's most likely an urban myth to scare people into just waiting, in this instance.  However, I do recall reading of a couple that were banned for the chargeback of artwork that they complained about.    And it was found within the company's rights to refuse to do future business.

 

In this particular case, given circumstances, I sincerely DOUBT any cruise line would ban a passenger for taking the dispute route, given the very long delays and record-setting unemployment numbers which point to a strong possibility that some cancelled passengers need prompt credits for their personal financial survival.  

 

[nbsjcruiser]

On 5/17/2020 at 12:53 PM, oceanlovinmama said:

It doesn't cost you a penny more to use us. 

 

Wanna bet? I was a part time TA for a well known agency (not mentioning names). One of the reasons I no longer do business with them is because they don't pass on the casino discounts to past Princess passengers who qualify for them. In fact, when I suggested that we highlight these discounts as a way to maintain business, the owner almost had a stroke and claimed she might as well close up her business. I can also vouch for the numerous times I missed out on discounts because a TA didn't call me back in time. Booking directly with the cruise lines is the best option these days. And don't even get me started on insurance and travel agencies.

Edited May 26, 2020 by nbsjcruiser

[azbirdmom]

2 hours ago, nbsjcruiser said:

 

Wanna bet? I was a part time TA for a well known agency (not mentioning names). One of the reasons I no longer do business with them is because they don't pass on the casino discounts to past Princess passengers who qualify for them. In fact, when I suggested that we highlight these discounts as a way to maintain business, the owner almost had a stroke and claimed she might as well close up her business. I can also vouch for the numerous times I missed out on discounts because a TA didn't call me back in time. Booking directly with the cruise lines is the best option these days. And don't even get me started on insurance and travel agencies.

 

That would be a TA to avoid.  Mine gives me a discount on top of the casino discount and sometimes can provide group discounts and OBC as well.  I can do the math using the fares that Princess advertises on line, apply the casino and TA discounts and come within a couple of dollars of what she is quoting me which is significantly less than booking direct.

[gmjc2]

Aulanis  and Coral -- thanks for the help. For some reason my thread page is not updating beyond  yesterday at 2:17 pm.but the e.mail notification gave the details.

[JT1962]

I filed 2 disputes with my credit card for independent excursion company charges for our Mediterranean cruise that was canceled. Their terms when I booked was a full refund if we canceled with 24 hours notice or our ship did not stop at the port for any reason. Now both say that they are only offering vouchers at this time and will consider a refund in 18 months if they have the capability and I am unable to use the certificate. I doubt we will be traveling to Europe in the next 18 months and I have even more doubts that those companies will be in business in 18 months. I imagine they will put me on the banned list regardless of the dispute outcome, but there are plenty of other options if I eventually get to those ports and they choose not to take my money at that time.

 

 

Just to follow up on my previous post, both disputes I filed were settled in my favor. I received full credit back from PayPail on the excursions we booked for Greece and from American Express for our Rome Excursions. Both were booked with independent companies who offered a full refund for cancellations with 24 hours notice at the time we booked, then only offered certificates for future use when our cruise was canceled.

 

If you are having issues getting a refund from an excursion company, don’t be afraid to file a dispute with the company you used to pay them originally. They have more power to get something done than we do as individuals.