Mask exemption policy

[popsaw]

Cruisers that cruise operators are primarily seeking to cruise. Not cruising would be a far more effective way of preventing the spread of the virus. Given that both cruisers and cruise lines are willing to risk exposure to the virus in order to cruise it makes sense to at least eliminate the risks to the extent possible. I therefore sympathize with MSC mask enforcement policy as a means of controlling the virus. The safest way to proceed however would be to go a step further and ban vunerable groups from cruising. This may seem rather radical yet forcing healthy people to wear masks would also have been an absurd notion some months ago.

Edited January 1, 2021 by popsaw

[capriccio]

26 minutes ago, popsaw said:

The safest way to proceed however would be to go a step further and ban vunerable groups from cruising.

 

But 'vulnerable groups' are not the only one who get covid. 

[popsaw]

Vulnerable groups are far more likely to die or suffer whereas most people that contract covid don't even know they have it. Banning vulnerable groups would virtually eliminate the risk of anyone dying from due to cruising. I am not suggesting this approach be implemented, i'm merely pointing out that this is the logical approach for those that put the protection of people above all else.

[Hlitner]

2 hours ago, popsaw said:

I don't smoke but don't care if others do. In your world am I anti smoking?

Not a good comparison but we will go with your subject.  Like you I do not smoke and could care less if others do smoke as long as their smoke does not reach my lungs.  With vaccines I could care less if you don't get vaccinated until that decision directly impacts me.  But in the healthcare insurance world (where I worked for about 35 years) we called those who refused vaccinations anti vaxers.  In a situation like COVID it will be the anti vax folks who will enable the virus to persevere for a very long time.  I had to smile at Dr. Fauci's comment this week that it would take a 75-80% vaccination rate to have any chance of achieving herd immunity.  Dr Fauci can be a bit cagey at times and the comment was almost flippant because he is very aware that such a high rate of vaccinations is not achievable in the USA (or Canada) because of the widespread anti-vax attitude.  

 

Perhaps some of latest COVID news will convince more to seek a vaccine.  While some choose to focus on death rates, the oft untold issue with COVID is the very serious (and probably lifelong) morbidities.  So while a healthy young person is not likely to die from COVID they are much more likely to end up with morbidities such as permanent heart damage, lung damage, kidney destruction, and the latest concern is permanent brain damage.   And I was just reading a Johns Hopkins report on the brain damage issue and the experts still have no idea why this is happening.  So I guess a young anti-vaxer can live happily ever after in a brain fog and on dialysis but would keep telling anyone who listens that COVID is not that serious.  We do know a young (early 40s) man who had a very mild case of COVID early last March.  He completely lost his sense of taste and smell.  Now, 9 months later despite all kinds of medical treatment he still has not recovered any of those important senses.  It is tough going through life without being able to smell anything or taste most food.

 

But if you are not vaccinated and happen to be on my cruise, and you get COVID you would ruin my cruise (and everyone else's on that ship) and likely cause everyone to undergo lots of testing, quarantine, delays in travel, etc.  Or course the obvious solution is not to let you on that ship in the first place because you have not been vaccinated.

 

Hank 

[sidari]

6 minutes ago, Hlitner said:

Not a good comparison but we will go with your subject.  Like you I do not smoke and could care less if others do smoke as long as their smoke does not reach my lungs.  With vaccines I could care less if you don't get vaccinated until that decision directly impacts me.  But in the healthcare insurance world (where I worked for about 35 years) we called those who refused vaccinations anti vaxers.  In a situation like COVID it will be the anti vax folks who will enable the virus to persevere for a very long time.  I had to smile at Dr. Fauci's comment this week that it would take a 75-80% vaccination rate to have any chance of achieving herd immunity.  Dr Fauci can be a bit cagey at times and the comment was almost flippant because he is very aware that such a high rate of vaccinations is not achievable in the USA (or Canada) because of the widespread anti-vax attitude.  

 

Perhaps some of latest COVID news will convince more to seek a vaccine.  While some choose to focus on death rates, the oft untold issue with COVID is the very serious (and probably lifelong) morbidities.  So while a healthy young person is not likely to die from COVID they are much more likely to end up with morbidities such as permanent heart damage, lung damage, kidney destruction, and the latest concern is permanent brain damage.   And I was just reading a Johns Hopkins report on the brain damage issue and the experts still have no idea why this is happening.  So I guess a young anti-vaxer can live happily ever after in a brain fog and on dialysis but would keep telling anyone who listens that COVID is not that serious.  We do know a young (early 40s) man who had a very mild case of COVID early last March.  He completely lost his sense of taste and smell.  Now, 9 months later despite all kinds of medical treatment he still has not recovered any of those important senses.  It is tough going through life without being able to smell anything or taste most food.

 

But if you are not vaccinated and happen to be on my cruise, and you get COVID you would ruin my cruise (and everyone else's on that ship) and likely cause everyone to undergo lots of testing, quarantine, delays in travel, etc.  Or course the obvious solution is not to let you on that ship in the first place because you have not been vaccinated.

 

Hank 

Hank ... You do know that even with the vaccine you can still get and pass on the virus ? A few days ago the UK media tried to whip up the Hysteria yet again after 981 deaths were reported and tried to make it sound as though it was in a 24 hour period when the numbers are based over a 28 day period meaning 35 deaths per day in that 28 day time frame. Based on the UK average deaths per day of 1600 from all causes over the same 28 days that is 44,800 ! Based on an average of 500 deaths per day with or from Covid over that same 28 day period Covid deaths are still lower that those from all causes.

[popsaw]

@ Hlitner.

I appreciate your perspective on the morality of the issue and concur with it generally but my point is simply that choosing not to partake  of something doesn't make you anti that thing otherwise where is the distinction between the campaigner that protests and demonstrates against vaccination and the person who has no issue with vaccinations but chooses not to be vaccinated because he doesnt like needles? I am mask exempt, I don't wear a mask but I am not anti mask. Anti implies strong resistance.

Edited January 1, 2021 by popsaw

[BermudaBound2014]

37 minutes ago, Hlitner said:

Perhaps some of latest COVID news will convince more to seek a vaccine.  While some choose to focus on death rates, the oft untold issue with COVID is the very serious (and probably lifelong) morbidities.  So while a healthy young person is not likely to die from COVID they are much more likely to end up with morbidities such as permanent heart damage, lung damage, kidney destruction, and the latest concern is permanent brain damage.   And I was just reading a Johns Hopkins report on the brain damage issue and the experts still have no idea why this is happening. 

 

Sigh.... More fear mongering. You make it sound as if long term issues are probable. The truth is that no one knows the long term effects of covid and the CDC, John Hopkins, and the mayo clinic all state that the majority of  people with covid recover just fine. I can't imagine having recovered from covid and being subject to reading this level of fear mongering.

 

I'm not suggesting that long term effects aren't possible, I am suggesting that we just don't know yet and that the experts are stating they most people recover just fine.. To write as if long term morbidities from Covid  are probable is both insensitive and irresponsible. IMO

 

From a John Hopkins brain study on long term effects of covid:

It's important to remember that most people who have COVID-19 recover quickly. But the potentially long-lasting problems from COVID-19 make it even more important to reduce the spread of the disease by following precautions such as wearing masks, avoiding crowds and keeping hands clean.https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/coronavirus/in-depth/coronavirus-long-term-effects/art-20490351

 

 

It’s not yet clear how common neurological side effects are in hospitalized patients, let alone in people with less severe respiratory symptoms who don’t spend time in hospitals. “The picture is still evolving,” Stevens says. https://www.apa.org/monitor/2020/11/attacks-brain

 

While most persons with COVID-19 recover and return to normal health, some patients can have symptoms that can last for weeks or even months after recovery from acute illness. ........CDC continues to work to identify how common these symptoms are, who is most likely to get them, and whether these symptoms eventually resolve. https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/long-term-effects.html

 

 

 

AGAIN, I am not suggesting that long term effects are not possible, but I am suggesting that the experts just don't know yet. They currently believe that those who do have longer effects are the minority and to imply otherwise is malice.

 

I'm a proponent of realistic caution, not outright fear. You (Hank) may not be paralyzed by fear, but someone reading your post may be adversely effected. There are well documented clinical implications of effects of our Fear Based Main Stream media and in particular, the mental health ramifications from Covid. 

 

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/247898920_If_It_Bleeds_It_Leads_The_Clinical_Implications_of_Fear-Based_Programming_in_News_Media

 

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0165178120310970

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7474809/

[Hlitner]

12 minutes ago, BermudaBound2014 said:

 

Sigh.... More fear mongering. You make it sound as if long term issues are probable. The truth is that no one knows the long term effects of covid and the CDC, John Hopkins, and the mayo clinic all state that the majority of  people with covid recover just fine. I can't imagine having recovered from covid and being subject to reading this level of fear mongering.

 

I'm not suggesting that long term effects aren't possible, I am suggesting that we just don't know yet and that the experts are stating they most people recover just fine.. To write as if long term morbidities from Covid  are probable is both insensitive and irresponsible. IMO

 

From a John Hopkins brain study on long term effects of covid:

It's important to remember that most people who have COVID-19 recover quickly. But the potentially long-lasting problems from COVID-19 make it even more important to reduce the spread of the disease by following precautions such as wearing masks, avoiding crowds and keeping hands clean.https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/coronavirus/in-depth/coronavirus-long-term-effects/art-20490351

 

 

It’s not yet clear how common neurological side effects are in hospitalized patients, let alone in people with less severe respiratory symptoms who don’t spend time in hospitals. “The picture is still evolving,” Stevens says. https://www.apa.org/monitor/2020/11/attacks-brain

 

While most persons with COVID-19 recover and return to normal health, some patients can have symptoms that can last for weeks or even months after recovery from acute illness. ........CDC continues to work to identify how common these symptoms are, who is most likely to get them, and whether these symptoms eventually resolve. https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/long-term-effects.html

 

 

 

AGAIN, I am not suggesting that long term effects are not possible, but I am suggesting that the experts just don't know yet. They currently believe that those who do have longer effects are the minority and to imply otherwise is malice.

 

I'm a proponent of realistic caution, not outright fear. You (Hank) may not be paralyzed by fear, but someone reading your post may be adversely effected. There are well documented clinical implications of effects of our Fear Based Main Stream media and in particular, the mental health ramifications from Covid. 

 

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/247898920_If_It_Bleeds_It_Leads_The_Clinical_Implications_of_Fear-Based_Programming_in_News_Media

 

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0165178120310970

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7474809/

I agree and used to cite a saying I first heard from Dr Fauci back in the days when he was lecturing on HIV/Aids.  "We do not know what we do not know!"   So those that want to roll the dice and not concern themselves about getting COVID might want to consider there is much we still do not know about that bug....and nearly all the experts will tell you that what we don't know is likely to not be very good news.  But from where I am sitting once a vaccine is available to my family and myself we will be among the first to get in line.

 

Hank

[BermudaBound2014]

1 minute ago, Hlitner said:

I agree and used to cite a saying I first heard from Dr Fauci back in the days when he was lecturing on HIV/Aids.  "We do not know what we do not know!"   So those that want to roll the dice and not concern themselves about getting COVID might want to consider there is much we still do not know about that bug....and nearly all the experts will tell you that what we don't know is likely to not be very good news.  But from where I am sitting once a vaccine is available to my family and myself we will be among the first to get in line.

 

Hank

 

And I 100% support you (and your family) getting the vaccine as soon as possible. While I'm not going to be first in line to receive the vaccine, I'm not 100% against it either.  

 

What I am against is suggesting that the long term effects of Covid are "very serious" and "probably lifelong". Because, as you say, we just don't know what we don't know.

 

I am currently of the belief  that the mental health ramifications of covid fear are going to plague us much longer than the virus itself (see reference articles linked above). 

 

A rational wholistic approach to Covid is needed. This includes immediate and long term physical, mental, and economic considerations. I am afraid that I don't share your optimism that a vaccine is going to be the 'cure'. I see the problem as much more complex than a negative or positive test result.

 

With that, I do want to apologize if I came across rather harshly and do wish you and your entire family a happy new year. 

 

 

[Hlitner]

2 hours ago, BermudaBound2014 said:

 

And I 100% support you (and your family) getting the vaccine as soon as possible. While I'm not going to be first in line to receive the vaccine, I'm not 100% against it either.  

 

What I am against is suggesting that the long term effects of Covid are "very serious" and "probably lifelong". Because, as you say, we just don't know what we don't know.

 

I am currently of the belief  that the mental health ramifications of covid fear are going to plague us much longer than the virus itself (see reference articles linked above). 

 

A rational wholistic approach to Covid is needed. This includes immediate and long term physical, mental, and economic considerations. I am afraid that I don't share your optimism that a vaccine is going to be the 'cure'. I see the problem as much more complex than a negative or positive test result.

 

With that, I do want to apologize if I came across rather harshly and do wish you and your entire family a happy new year. 

 

 

I agree with you more then not!  We are soon off to spend the winter in Puerto Vallarta where restaurants are open, the beaches open, the sea inviting, etc etc.  On the other hand COVID is also a big problem and we will take the usual precautions...to a point.  Living life in constant fear is not our style and we think that is akin to being in a self-imposed prison.  Whether common sense travel and living works in this COVID era is a question that we intend to explore.  I respect everyone's own opinion of dealing with COVID and understand that everyone has their own level of risk tolerance.  Because DW and I are as old as dirt we feel extra pressure to live our lives to the fullest (within reason) because the clock is truly ticking.

 

Hank

[BermudaBound2014]

Enjoy PV! We are wintering in Hawaii this year. They aren't nearly as 'free' as Puerta Vallarta will be for you though. I just noticed you are from PA. So far our winter here in MI has been very mild. Let's hope it stays that way until we fly out next weekend. 

[LifeonMars]

On 11/23/2020 at 12:15 PM, popsaw said:

I have an MSC cruise booked from Southampton in October. There is no mention or guidance on their website for the mask exempt.  Is anybody aware of current MSC policy in this regard? I realize October is some time away but just planning for worse.

 

Not familiar with "Mask exempt" reasons, but why not wear a Visor  to help protect fellow travellers ?

[dexddd]

1 hour ago, LifeonMars said:

 

Not familiar with "Mask exempt" reasons, but why not wear a Visor  to help protect fellow travellers ?

Welcome to CC.

[d9704011]

1 hour ago, LifeonMars said:

 

Not familiar with "Mask exempt" reasons, but why not wear a Visor  to help protect fellow travellers ?

What are the mask/visor policies and procedures for inter-planetary travel?

[LifeonMars]

34 minutes ago, d9704011 said:

What are the mask/visor policies and procedures for inter-planetary travel?