First North American Cruise Line Vaccine Mandate

[lizzius]

Just now, Ocean Boy said:

Did I?

 

I am glad your family is able to get together in some sort of normal way during these times and I hope things continue to go well for all if you. There are some on this forum who have not been so fortunate when it comes to contact with the virus in question. We all tend to formulate our opinions based on our experiences. I have dealt wirh the dark side of this virus. I truly hope you never have to. Hopefully, life will return to normal sooner than later for all.

Ugh. Let's start over. Where did I say we're getting together like normal right now? We're not. Absolutely not. Our "bubble" has been locked down tightly, and only includes the set of grandparents who live in town with us. We haven't been to a restaurant in over a year, haven't had play dates, or birthday parties, or met face to face indoors with anyone inside of our wide social circle. We have experienced loss, too, like so many families and have had to grieve from a far rather than offer the comfort of an embrace.

 

If you will read closely, you will see I asked this: will the vaccinated grandparents (or for you, it may be someone with other medical vulnerabilities) continue to operate in a world where they expect everyone to take the same precautions on their behalf once they have been vaccinated? At least for our family, the answer is no. 

 

There's even more depth to the consideration for us. We're not going to throw a birthday party for my son in the spring if most of the adults we would normally invite haven't also had the opportunity to be vaccinated (including ourselves), and we're seeing the type of response in the population level death/hospitalization metrics that we expect to see as we approach a critical mass of immunity. We could throw a "vaccinated only" type of birthday party but that would frankly be absurd on its face. Until most of us have the freedom to carry on closer to "business as usual" without ending up hospitalized or worse, creating these "special" spaces with an illusion of protection do nothing but harm.

[Ocean Boy]

6 minutes ago, lizzius said:

Ugh. Let's start over. Where did I say we're getting together like normal right now? We're not. Absolutely not. Our "bubble" has been locked down tightly, and only includes the set of grandparents who live in town with us. We haven't been to a restaurant in over a year, haven't had play dates, or birthday parties, or met face to face indoors with anyone inside of our wide social circle. We have experienced loss, too, like so many families and have had to grieve from a far rather than offer the comfort of an embrace.

 

If you will read closely, you will see I asked this: will the vaccinated grandparents (or for you, it may be someone with other medical vulnerabilities) continue to operate in a world where they expect everyone to take the same precautions on their behalf once they have been vaccinated? At least for our family, the answer is no. 

 

There's even more depth to the consideration for us. We're not going to throw a birthday party for my son in the spring if most of the adults we would normally invite haven't also had the opportunity to be vaccinated (including ourselves), and we're seeing the type of response in the population level death/hospitalization metrics that we expect to see as we approach a critical mass of immunity. We could throw a "vaccinated only" type of birthday party but that would frankly be absurd on its face. Until most of us have the freedom to carry on closer to "business as usual" without ending up hospitalized or worse, creating these "special" spaces with an illusion of protection do nothing but harm.

I can't possibly provide an answer for you as to what their expectations will be. On this thread the question, and only answer that really matters is what will the expectations of the cruise lines be.

[lizzius]

1 minute ago, Ocean Boy said:

I can't possibly provide an answer for you as to what their expectations will be. On this thread the question, and only answer that really matters is what will the expectations of the cruise lines be.

Which we are all speculating about, based on an extrapolation of our own expectations. Welcome back.

[Ocean Boy]

4 minutes ago, lizzius said:

Which we are all speculating about, based on an extrapolation of our own expectations. Welcome back.

And to you also.

[Mapleleafforever]

42 minutes ago, lizzius said:

I get that, and I think we're all just trying to get our thoughts in order. I believe you're in the other thread where some posters are already denigrating the value of Russian and Chinese vaccines while simultaneously expressing outrage at the idea that in this theoretical world of vaccine requirements there could feasibly be exemptions for crew... It's just illogical, and betrays that quite a few posters here have no idea of what the rest of the world is facing in terms of supply, or approval processes in their own countries. All they know is that they can get an appointment at Publix (or should be able to soon). That means we call can, right?

Too many people have insular views of the world. 

[Mapleleafforever]

27 minutes ago, lizzius said:

Ugh. Let's start over. Where did I say we're getting together like normal right now? We're not. Absolutely not. Our "bubble" has been locked down tightly, and only includes the set of grandparents who live in town with us. We haven't been to a restaurant in over a year, haven't had play dates, or birthday parties, or met face to face indoors with anyone inside of our wide social circle. We have experienced loss, too, like so many families and have had to grieve from a far rather than offer the comfort of an embrace.

 

If you will read closely, you will see I asked this: will the vaccinated grandparents (or for you, it may be someone with other medical vulnerabilities) continue to operate in a world where they expect everyone to take the same precautions on their behalf once they have been vaccinated? At least for our family, the answer is no. 

 

There's even more depth to the consideration for us. We're not going to throw a birthday party for my son in the spring if most of the adults we would normally invite haven't also had the opportunity to be vaccinated (including ourselves), and we're seeing the type of response in the population level death/hospitalization metrics that we expect to see as we approach a critical mass of immunity. We could throw a "vaccinated only" type of birthday party but that would frankly be absurd on its face. Until most of us have the freedom to carry on closer to "business as usual" without ending up hospitalized or worse, creating these "special" spaces with an illusion of protection do nothing but harm.

We're in the same boat. We have 3 year old and an 18 month old and my parents were a massive part of their lives until my Province was put under a strict stay at home order on December 26. We still do video calls pretty much daily but it's not the same. 

 

We have taken our last 2 cruises with my parents and they were amazing. Now we are under the uncertainty of our kids and my parents not being allowed to sail for some time. 

 

Luckily our schools are opening up again next week and it looks like life will slowly start to open up which is great because what we have now is a mental health crisis. 

[DCGuy64]

25 minutes ago, Mapleleafforever said:

Too many people have insular views of the world. 

You do see the irony, don't you?  I sure do. 😉

[lizzius]

12 minutes ago, Mapleleafforever said:

We're in the same boat. We have 3 year old and an 18 month old and my parents were a massive part of their lives until my Province was put under a strict stay at home order on December 26. We still do video calls pretty much daily but it's not the same. 

 

We have taken our last 2 cruises with my parents and they were amazing. Now we are under the uncertainty of our kids and my parents not being allowed to sail for some time. 

 

Luckily our schools are opening up again next week and it looks like life will slowly start to open up which is great because what we have now is a mental health crisis. 

Are you us?! My kids are just shy of 2 and 4. The preschool has been fully opened since January, and we decided it was best for the 4 year old to go, but to do so we've decided our bubble is too dangerous for grandma and grandpa, so now it's just the 4 of us until they can get vaccinated (which should only be a month or so). 

 

Our next cruise (Nov 2021) is for all of us, which is obviously up in the air. Grandpa and my 4 yo have matching hawaiian shirts to wear (grandma and my 2 yo have matching coordinated dresses). Cheesy, I know, but we are so looking forward to a first family vacation. 

 

We've got one scheduled after that in Dec 2021 that's just us with some childless friends. It'll be our first vacation away together since we started this whole family expansion business 5 years ago. I hear you about the mental health crisis thing... It's part of the reason we decided kiddo needed to go to preschool. It's just such a critical age. Beyond that, kids are both a joy and a burden meant to be shared with a broader circle of family and community. We're missing the shared moments of laughter, and the occasional mental break.

 

Ps: we're not normally 2 vacations a year people... The one with the kids was supposed to happen last year (and would have been our first family vacation).

  

[BSocial]

2 minutes ago, lizzius said:

Our next cruise (Nov 2021) is for all of us, which is obviously up in the air. Grandpa and my 4 yo have matching hawaiian shirts to wear (grandma and my 2 yo have matching coordinated dresses). Cheesy, I know, but we are so looking forward to a first family vacation. 

I ❤️ This.    The matching attire makes me smile.

[Mapleleafforever]

6 minutes ago, lizzius said:

Are you us?! My kids are just shy of 2 and 4. The preschool has been fully opened since January, and we decided it was best for the 4 year old to go, but to do so we've decided our bubble is too dangerous for grandma and grandpa, so now it's just the 4 of us until they can get vaccinated (which should only be a month or so). 

 

Our next cruise (Nov 2021) is for all of us, which is obviously up in the air. Grandpa and my 4 yo have matching hawaiian shirts to wear (grandma and my 2 yo have matching coordinated dresses). Cheesy, I know, but we are so looking forward to a first family vacation. 

 

We've got one scheduled after that in Dec 2021 that's just us with some childless friends. It'll be our first vacation away together since we started this whole family expansion business 5 years ago. I hear you about the mental health crisis thing... It's part of the reason we decided kiddo needed to go to preschool. It's just such a critical age. Beyond that, kids are both a joy and a burden meant to be shared with a broader circle of family and community. We're missing the shared moments of laughter, and the occasional mental break.

 

Ps: we're not normally 2 vacations a year people... The one with the kids was supposed to happen last year (and would have been our first family vacation).

  

Luckily the one thing that hasn't been closed the last few months is our preschools. Was a very easy decision for us to keep them both in the entire time as we are also big believers in the importance of preschool and the developmental and social interactions it provides. That and my wife is currently working from home and I am "essential" and out of the house every day and there's noooo way she's working AND looking after 2 small kids at home. 

 

That's awesome the  matching shirts!!! You must do that and get as many photos you can of them!! I would almost recommend getting your 4 year old the next size up as well in case we have to wait until next year to cruise. 

 

We are Diamond and have been on quite a few cruises just the two of us but the most memorable ones have been the two with the grandparents. 

[cured]

1 hour ago, lizzius said:

And the answer is of course they're not going to stay away from the dirty "unvaccinated", to use the tone of so many others in these boards. 

Wow. Now I see where your outrage is coming from. You are imposing your views on people's statements and then assigning your own interpretations. Absolutely nobody on this thread has called the unvaccinated "dirty" nor has anybody stated they hate children. Nor has it ever been implied in any thread. You are seeing what you want to see even if it is false.

 

The arguments to mandate vaccines is 100% pure science. It has absolutely NOTHING to do with wanting to cruise without children or thinking the unvaccinated are dirty.

 

We know 100% that unvaccinated people are transmissions for spread and hosts for possible further mutations. 

 

The data is still out on the transmissibility of vaccinated people, but the data trickling in is looking good that the viral loads are small enough to be negligible.

 

The only way to get this virus under control and stop it, yes stop it, much like small pox, polio, measles and whooping cough, (that is they were until the anti-vaxxers grew in size,) and many of the childhood diseases you don't have to worry too much about anymore in our country.

 

The only way to stop it is through vaccination, along with mask wearing and social distancing until herd immunity occurs.  Statistics and data have said that the world will not achieve herd immunity through natural occurring immunity.

 

I am sure your children are lovely and I would love to travel some day on the ship with them. But until they can be vaccinated or herd immunity is established, they are vectors for transmission. 

 

This is not a business vendetta against your children or anyone else's or unvaccinated people, it just makes scientific sense.

[ZoeyVictoria]

On 2/3/2021 at 7:32 PM, lizzius said:

I certainly wasn't, but we as a society have asked younger people (especially children) to make the bulk of the sacrifices (either financially, with their own health, or their educational future and development) to keep those at-risk safe. It's not really a situation where "fairness" matters, but imagine asking those same young people to wait even longer to rejoin society or travel because they can't get a vaccine they sacrificed to get into your arm.

 

35 minutes ago, lizzius said:

Are you us?! My kids are just shy of 2 and 4. The preschool has been fully opened since January, and we decided it was best for the 4 year old to go, but to do so we've decided our bubble is too dangerous for grandma and grandpa, so now it's just the 4 of us until they can get vaccinated (which should only be a month or so). 

 

  

The child who has made “the bulk of the sacrifices” and we are asking “to wait even longer to rejoin society” and “can’t get a vaccine they sacrificed to get into your arm” is ONE YEAR OLD?!!!    What is wrong with you?

[lizzius]

1 minute ago, cured said:

Wow. Now I see where your outrage is coming from. You are imposing your views on people's statements and then assigning your own interpretations. Absolutely nobody on this thread has called the unvaccinated "dirty" nor has anybody stated they hate children. Nor has it ever been implied in any thread. You are seeing what you want to see even if it is false.

 

The arguments to mandate vaccines is 100% pure science. It has absolutely NOTHING to do with wanting to cruise without children or thinking the unvaccinated are dirty.

 

...

 

This is not a business vendetta against your children or anyone else's or unvaccinated people, it just makes scientific sense.

I added the invective, but the tone is there. There are even vague little hints of it in your reply to me.

 

And it absolutely doesn't make scientific sense. That's why experts are all advocating for fully reopening once most adults have been vaccinated, and not waiting until children have done so (there's also the non-zero chance it will never be approved in young children because the risk calculus for them is not the same). We also have enough evidence that vaccination doesn't sterilize enough that other experts are saying the virus will become endemic even if most of us can avoid disease. You jump back and forth between trying to say "this is about cruising" to "this is about what's best for society as a whole", but no one with letters after their name agrees with you that isolating our "vectors" until they can be vaccinated against a disease that doesn't carry nearly as much risk for them is in anyone's best interest. And to be clear, that is what you're calling for by trying to make the faulty points you're making above. Banning children from their once yearly trip on a cruise ship has absolutely no effect on the 51 weeks out of the year they're going to spend interacting with every adult in their orbit. If it really makes "scientific sense"as you are trying to imply, then we should all buckle in for another year or so of school closures and continued lockdown.

[DCGuy64]

Following this thread for the verbal fireworks, LOL. 🤣

[lizzius]

3 minutes ago, ZoeyVictoria said:

 

The child who has made “the bulk of the sacrifices” and we are asking “to wait even longer to rejoin society” and “can’t get a vaccine they sacrificed to get into your arm” is ONE YEAR OLD?!!!    What is wrong with you?

I guess you're not capable of envisioning what other people are going through, but I am... there are also plenty of accounts of children and young adults who are facing financial or mental turmoil thanks to the policies put in place largely to protect the vulnerable among us if you ever decide to pick up some compassion at the store.

 

I very clearly wasn't speaking about my children specifically, but rather about young people in general. I doubt your reading comprehension is so flawed, but I'd ask the same: what is wrong with you?

Edited February 5, 2021 by lizzius

[DCGuy64]

1 minute ago, lizzius said:

I added the invective, but the tone is there. There are even vague little hints of it in your reply to me.

 

And it absolutely doesn't make scientific sense. That's why experts are all advocating for fully reopening once most adults have been vaccinated, and not waiting until children have done so (there's also the non-zero chance it will never be approved in young children because the risk calculus for them is not the same). We also have enough evidence that vaccination doesn't sterilize enough that other experts are saying the virus will become endemic even if most of us can avoid disease. You jump back and forth between trying to say "this is about cruising" to "this is about what's best for society as a whole", but no one with letters after their name agrees with you that isolating our "vectors" until they can be vaccinated against a disease that doesn't carry nearly as much risk for them is in anyone's best interest. And to be clear, that is what you're calling for by trying to make the faulty points you're making above. Banning children from their once yearly trip on a cruise ship has absolutely no effect on the 51 weeks out of the year they're going to spend interacting with every adult in their orbit. If it really makes "scientific sense"as you are trying to imply, then we should all buckle in for another year or so of school closures and continued lockdown.

^^^ x 1,000 times.

It boggles my mind that there are still people out there believing that children are dangerous virus vectors and that schools MUST be closed down indefinitely. Absolutely ludicrous and not supported by science. In fact, just the opposite is true: not only are children statistically less likely to be infected and die (not anywhere near 1% or anything like it-look at John Hopkins excellent website if you doubt me), but schools are some of the least likely places to get the virus in the first place. https://www.who.int/docs/default-source/coronaviruse/risk-comms-updates/update39-covid-and-schools.pdf?sfvrsn=320db233_2  More and more, mayors like Bill DeBlasio in NYC and Lori Lightfoot in Chicago and governors are saying "enough is enough" and demanding that schools reopen. Furthermore, look at a place like Las Vegas where SUICIDES have skyrocketed in school children. https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/24/us/politics/student-suicides-nevada-coronavirus.html COVID-19 may not kill most 18-and unders, but suicide does 100% OF THE TIME.

Kids need to be in school, period. End of story.

[Mapleleafforever]

30 minutes ago, cured said:

Wow. Now I see where your outrage is coming from. You are imposing your views on people's statements and then assigning your own interpretations. Absolutely nobody on this thread has called the unvaccinated "dirty" nor has anybody stated they hate children. Nor has it ever been implied in any thread. You are seeing what you want to see even if it is false.

 

The arguments to mandate vaccines is 100% pure science. It has absolutely NOTHING to do with wanting to cruise without children or thinking the unvaccinated are dirty.

 

We know 100% that unvaccinated people are transmissions for spread and hosts for possible further mutations. 

 

The data is still out on the transmissibility of vaccinated people, but the data trickling in is looking good that the viral loads are small enough to be negligible.

 

The only way to get this virus under control and stop it, yes stop it, much like small pox, polio, measles and whooping cough, (that is they were until the anti-vaxxers grew in size,) and many of the childhood diseases you don't have to worry too much about anymore in our country.

 

The only way to stop it is through vaccination, along with mask wearing and social distancing until herd immunity occurs.  Statistics and data have said that the world will not achieve herd immunity through natural occurring immunity.

 

I am sure your children are lovely and I would love to travel some day on the ship with them. But until they can be vaccinated or herd immunity is established, they are vectors for transmission. 

 

This is not a business vendetta against your children or anyone else's or unvaccinated people, it just makes scientific sense.

We still don't know just who will and who will not be allowed to cruise. Keeping in mind that it is a private business they can pretty much decide who gets to and who doesn't. There's still a good chance that over 70's and people who are immunocompromised may not be allowed on board either. Cruise lines can't afford to have any outbreaks on board. 

[Mapleleafforever]

24 minutes ago, ZoeyVictoria said:

 

The child who has made “the bulk of the sacrifices” and we are asking “to wait even longer to rejoin society” and “can’t get a vaccine they sacrificed to get into your arm” is ONE YEAR OLD?!!!    What is wrong with you?

A tad harsh, let's try to keep it civil please. 

[lizzius]

12 minutes ago, DCGuy64 said:

^^^ x 1,000 times.

It boggles my mind that there are still people out there believing that children are dangerous virus vectors and that schools MUST be closed down indefinitely. 

To be generous, I think the problem is that the people on this board saying such nonsense believe the first clause readily, but have a hard time deducing the second clause of your sentence as the logical extension of that belief. I think it's called motivated reasoning.

[ZoeyVictoria]

Just now, Mapleleafforever said:

A tad harsh, let's try to keep it civil please. 

That was the civilized version.

[lizzius]

7 minutes ago, Mapleleafforever said:

We still don't know just who will and who will not be allowed to cruise. Keeping in mind that it is a private business they can pretty much decide who gets to and who doesn't. There's still a good chance that over 70's and people who are immunocompromised may not be allowed on board either. Cruise lines can't afford to have any outbreaks on board. 

This is part of the reason I hope the mandates for resuming cruises include expanded medical facilities... I read a story that said even with complete vaccination in the population of people 65+, hospitalizations during a hypothetical flu and coronavirus season could be roughly double for that group. Not necessarily a huge deal if we are prepared for it, and I hope we can find a way to make room for an inevitability like that. Same with younger people who are also immune compromised... I would hate to see widespread acceptance of the idea that they're to be forever restricted from some forms of travel (and really immune disorders aren't all that rare).

Edited February 5, 2021 by lizzius

[smokeybandit]

4 minutes ago, lizzius said:

This is part of the reason I hope the mandates for resuming cruises include expanded medical facilities

 

The CDC's so-called return to sailing order did mandate expanded medical facilities.

[Mapleleafforever]

14 minutes ago, lizzius said:

This is part of the reason I hope the mandates for resuming cruises include expanded medical facilities... I read a story that said even with complete vaccination in the population of people 65+, hospitalizations during a hypothetical flu and coronavirus season could be roughly double for that group. Not necessarily a huge deal if we are prepared for it, and I hope we can find a way to make to for an inevitability like that. Same with younger people who are also immune compromised... I would hate to see widespread acceptance of the idea that they're to be forever restricted from some forms of travel (and really immune disorders aren't all that rare).

Yeah, that has to happen according to the CDC and it's just the tip of the iceberg (bad cruising reference) as to what precautions the cruise lines will have to take.  

[DCGuy64]

28 minutes ago, lizzius said:

To be generous, I think the problem is that the people on this board saying such nonsense believe the first clause readily, but have a hard time deducing the second clause of your sentence as the logical extension of that belief. I think it's called motivated reasoning.

Part of my obvious frustration is due to what I see from some people (not just in this thread, but in similar ones, as well as other forums like this one) that suggest the only way to return to cruising safely is by promising a 100% risk-free experience, and that NOT A SINGLE CASE of COVID can ever be allowed. That's not only unreasonable, it's unattainable. If that's your threshold, then it's wrong. More to the point, the CDC recognizes this and that's why it wants procedures and facilities in place to deal with the inevitable (yes, inevitable) circumstance of someone contracting the virus onboard. So when I read comments alluding to "the cruise lines can't afford an outbreak"  or similar statements, I wonder what fantasy world they're living in. I have no illusions that there won't be one, it's just a question of how well the cruise line responds. COVID-19 is something that we'll just have to live with, not hide from in a bunker forever and demand everyone else do likewise.

[DCGuy64]

37 minutes ago, ZoeyVictoria said:

That was the civilized version.

Good thing! The moderators of this site take a very dim view toward personal attacks. I made the mistake of getting into it with some people a few years ago and got a couple of warning points from the mods. Enough points and you'll be permanently banned from the site. Take it from me, being civil is the way to go.