NCL may pull out of Florida over DeSantis' rules forbidding proof of vaccination

[commodore2010]

How would NCL or any cruise line know someone was vaccinated? 

 

Those cards you get are easily forged/faked.  Signing an attestation is not going to work.

 

Just google fake vaccine cards

 

I know the data of all vaccinated people is in the CDC database, but if you think the cruise lines will be allowed access, you are wrong. 

[coffeebean]

2 hours ago, Cruising Lynne said:

Ultimately, if the CDC hadn't made it so difficult for cruising to restart, NCL never would have made a vaccine mandate. Then it wouldn't have mattered what DeSantis did. 

 

I understand that DeSantis wants people to be free and not be controlled by any vaccine mandates, but he should be trying to find a way to encourage people to get vaccinated. 

 

If NCL leaves Florida, it will only be temporary. Too many people enjoy cruising out of Florida, and the new terminal hasn't even been used yet. I would be excited to cruise out of Charleston though. I have family there that would enjoy cruising with us, and their guest room is ready for a pre-cruise stay 😃

And…….Florida depends on the revenue the cruise ship industry generates. I hope DeSantis finds a way to save face and allows the cruise lines run their businesses without government interference. 

[coffeebean]

2 hours ago, rfs7306 said:

What about people with underlying medical issues for who the vaccine may be detrimental? Also the fact that long term affects have not been proven yet. I have mixed opinion on this issue. Anyone with autoimmune disease(and that is a lot of people}  could be thrown back into flare ups. I don't have a problem with Covid tests or temp checks but the vaccine may leave lasting effects for some people and why should they be denied cruising just because they have a disease. They are not denied air travel, train travel which also has a lot of people in a enclosed space. We just don't know enough about the vaccine long term to make an informed decision. BTW are you also concerned about the vaccine status of the people in places where your ship may visit? Would you prefer they stay home because you are visiting their country. See how complicated  this is? one  more thing if I am correct NCL is building a new terminal in Miami do you think they will put all that money for something they won't use? 

Those folks who cannot take the vaccine for medical issues will just have to wait until this vaccine mandate is dropped. They will have to find another way to vacation. Sorry, but that is the only way the cruise lines can fulfill the CDC mandates involving vaccines. 
 

Regarding people with autoimmune diseases, the CDC encourages people with autoimmune diseases to get vaccinated. Has there been any correlation or concern with the vacccines and autoimmune diseases? I have not heard any discussion from experts that say there could be a problem in the future. I think your concern is unwarranted. 

[DCGuy64]

1 minute ago, coffeebean said:

Those folks who cannot take the vaccine for medical issues will just have to wait until this vaccine mandate is dropped. They will have to find another way to vacation. Sorry, but that is the only way the cruise lines can fulfill the CDC mandates involving vaccines. 

That isn't true, @coffeebean

[julig22]

18 minutes ago, coffeebean said:

Regarding people with autoimmune diseases, the CDC encourages people with autoimmune diseases to get vaccinated. Has there been any correlation or concern with the vacccines and autoimmune diseases? I have not heard any discussion from experts that say there could be a problem in the future. I think your concern is unwarranted. 

Lots of people with autoimmune issues consider themselves to be immuno-compromised - which is untrue in many cases.  Just the opposite - their immune system is in overdrive and they rarely get sick.  I fall into that category, possibly as a result of H1N1 (long haulers aren't new with COVID).  I got my Moderna shots, had a mild reaction with #2, like lots of folks. 

 

But there is a theory that vaccinations aren't as effective simply because the overactive immune system shuts down the immunity-development process before it can be completed.  But the net result is still immunity, either from the vaccine or the natural immunity.  No harm, no foul.

[rfs7306]

10 minutes ago, coffeebean said:

Those folks who cannot take the vaccine for medical issues will just have to wait until this vaccine mandate is dropped. They will have to find another way to vacation. Sorry, but that is the only way the cruise lines can fulfill the CDC mandates involving vaccines. 
 

Regarding people with autoimmune diseases, the CDC encourages people with autoimmune diseases to get vaccinated. Has there been any correlation or concern with the vacccines and autoimmune diseases? I have not heard any discussion from experts that say there could be a problem in the future. I think your concern is unwarranted. 

Do you have an autoimmune disease ? Its not the short term it's long term which we do not know  but I have heard of people having problems fairly soon after the injection and not just a sore arm or flu like symptoms'. What about the people in the ports you are visiting? Are you sure they are all immunized. If not do you intend to stay on the ship to avoid exposure? Do you grocery shop, go to work, out for dinner etc. and are you sure everyone  you come in contact with is immunized. I don't think so.  My concern is not unwarranted your unconcern for future complications from the vaccine is disturbing . Why should someone have to forgo a cruise which in itself is taking a chance but someone who prefers not to get the shot can't cruise . See my point? 

 

17 minutes ago, DCGuy64 said:

That isn't true, @coffeebean

 

[DCGuy64]

3 minutes ago, julig22 said:

But the net result is still immunity, either from the vaccine or the natural immunity.

Exactly, which is what I'm saying. And, in fact, everything I've been reading about what the EU is doing regarding immunity passports, vaccine certificates, etc. is based on BOTH the vaccinated and those recently recovered from Covid-19, because both confer immunity. That's the goal. And if the EU is going to use that standard, it's going to impact European passengers on US cruise ships and vice versa. Everything I've read on the CDC's website says the same thing. Vaccinated or recovered.

[julig22]

1 minute ago, DCGuy64 said:

Exactly, which is what I'm saying. And, in fact, everything I've been reading about what the EU is doing regarding immunity passports, vaccine certificates, etc. is based on BOTH the vaccinated and those recently recovered from Covid-19, because both confer immunity. That's the goal. And if the EU is going to use that standard, it's going to impact European passengers on US cruise ships and vice versa. Everything I've read on the CDC's website says the same thing. Vaccinated or recovered.

That is not what I meant by immunity.  Because my system is in overdrive, I might never have symptoms in the first place, but that does not mean I am immune or can't spread the virus.  So I am vaccinated.

 

As to true immunity to COVID,  I believe the current thought is that the vaccines provide immunity to the original virus, plus many of the first-generation mutations for an unknown period (trial participants are still showing immunity). Those who have recovered from COVID do not have significant immunity to the mutations and immunity does not appear to be as long lasting as originally thought.

 

So I believe that 100% vaccinated should be the standard for now.  Herd immunity has failed so far and I don't want to be on a cruise that is restricted because of an outbreak.

[Pizzasteve]

27 minutes ago, rfs7306 said:

Do you have an autoimmune disease ? Its not the short term it's long term which we do not know  but I have heard of people having problems fairly soon after the injection and not just a sore arm or flu like symptoms'. What about the people in the ports you are visiting? Are you sure they are all immunized. If not do you intend to stay on the ship to avoid exposure? Do you grocery shop, go to work, out for dinner etc. and are you sure everyone  you come in contact with is immunized. I don't think so.  My concern is not unwarranted your unconcern for future complications from the vaccine is disturbing . Why should someone have to forgo a cruise which in itself is taking a chance but someone who prefers not to get the shot can't cruise . See my point? 

 

 

That is because of the way vaccines work.  They are gone from your system shortly after triggering the immune response.

 

So any long term issues would by definition be issues with your own immune system or body chemistry, not a long term vaccine effect.  For example, a blood clot or triggered autoimmune reaction, both very rare, have been reported.  There might be a long term impact from, for example, a stroke triggered by covid or the vaccine such as typical stroke lasting effects.

 

That said, nothing the vaccine causes is not also caused by a case of covid itself, and the odds it happens with covid vs the odds it happens with the vaccine, normalized by the odds that one is exposed to Covid, make the risks orders of magnitude worse to not take the shot, like hundreds of thousands to millions of times worse.  Its like betting your life on 'needing to win the lotto vs betting your life that you wont get struck by lightning twice.

 

This is why people tend to not give merit to an anti vaccination stance.  amist are based on very flawed thinking, like they heard of rumors of a problem or know of one case of autoimmune issues out of 10 million doses (that might not even have been caused by the vaccine, but rather the stress of the shot, for example).

Edited May 7, 2021 by Pizzasteve

[DCGuy64]

2 minutes ago, julig22 said:

That is not what I meant by immunity.  Because my system is in overdrive, I might never have symptoms in the first place, but that does not mean I am immune or can't spread the virus.  So I am vaccinated.

 

As to true immunity to COVID,  I believe the current thought is that the vaccines provide immunity to the original virus, plus many of the first-generation mutations for an unknown period (trial participants are still showing immunity). Those who have recovered from COVID do not have significant immunity to the mutations and immunity does not appear to be as long lasting as originally thought.

 

So I believe that 100% vaccinated should be the standard for now.  Herd immunity has failed so far and I don't want to be on a cruise that is restricted because of an outbreak.

Two points: Natural immunity from having had Covid-19 isn't forever, but I'm pretty sure if I got over Covid-19 on May 5 and sailed on a cruise ship 2 weeks after recovery, I'd be fine. That's what we're talking about, after all, which is sailing on cruise ships. My own physician told me my immunity would likely last for several months, again plenty of time if I had a cruise planned. My second point is: where do you get the idea that "herd immunity has failed so far." I've actually been reading the opposite, namely that we may already have reached it.

 

[Pizzasteve]

8 minutes ago, DCGuy64 said:

Two points: Natural immunity from having had Covid-19 isn't forever, but I'm pretty sure if I got over Covid-19 on May 5 and sailed on a cruise ship 2 weeks after recovery, I'd be fine. That's what we're talking about, after all, which is sailing on cruise ships. My own physician told me my immunity would likely last for several months, again plenty of time if I had a cruise planned. My second point is: where do you get the idea that "herd immunity has failed so far." I've actually been reading the opposite, namely that we may already have reached it.

 

The data is pretty compelling.  Check out Covid rates on counties with high vaccination rates, like Alameda where I live at 70%+, with the city of North Berkeley at 98%+.  

 

Cases still too high in too many spots to say we have some sort of herd protection, and even with that it would be foolish to cruise unvaccinated as the destinations are still heavily exposed.  India thought they were in a good place and varients have them near the horrible US peak rates now.  Please unvaccinated people, speak with your trusted medical professional and get the best information about your choice and its risks.

Edited May 7, 2021 by Pizzasteve

[tumblew467]

1 hour ago, commodore2010 said:

How would NCL or any cruise line know someone was vaccinated? 

 

Those cards you get are easily forged/faked.  Signing an attestation is not going to work.

 

Just google fake vaccine cards

 

I know the data of all vaccinated people is in the CDC database, but if you think the cruise lines will be allowed access, you are wrong. 

I would think that when it gets closer to your cruise that NCL will have a form to fill out ( release of info) allowing them to get the info from CDC on your status of being vaccinated.

 Here in NJ whoever received the vaccine is in the states immunization system. I have my CDC card as well  as my husband and adult son.  I also got 3 individual letters from the state with the state seal   showing where and when we got vaccinated. Now - yes all this can be forged.

So I expect that a release of info form will be given out or it will be added on to the NCL contract  when you are allowed to get the e-docs. It is the only way to confirm that you are vaccinated. Or a release from  your state saying you were vaccinated.

 

[DCGuy64]

3 minutes ago, Pizzasteve said:

Cases still too high in too many spots to say we have some sort of herd protection, and even with that it would be foolish to cruise unvaccinated as the destinations are still heavily exposed.

I guess I'm a realist. When vaccines were first being discussed last year, many people said it would take YEARS to find one. We have at least three in this country and vaccinations are doing very well. Herd immunity hasn't YET been achieved nationwide, I don't think, but for the love of God, they only started vaccinating people in, what, December 2020? What kind of a world do we live in that if we don't solve the entire problem of Covid-19 in 6 months that's considered a "failure"? What kind of entitled people are we? This is the fault of Amazon and "Pizza in 30 minutes or it's free." We have such an attitude of "it has to fixed right away or it's a fail." SMH... Give it time, people, we want instant gratification and that ain't happening.

[coffeebean]

1 hour ago, DCGuy64 said:

That isn't true, @coffeebean

Not true? What am I missing about the CDC mandates? Are you referring to the 98% crew and 95% passenger mandate for vaccines? To me, that is just as good as mandating 100% vaccinated crew/passengers.

[jrapps]

11 minutes ago, tumblew467 said:

I would think that when it gets closer to your cruise that NCL will have a form to fill out ( release of info) allowing them to get the info from CDC on your status of being vaccinated.

 Here in NJ whoever received the vaccine is in the states immunization system. I have my CDC card as well  as my husband and adult son.  I also got 3 individual letters from the state with the state seal   showing where and when we got vaccinated. Now - yes all this can be forged.

So I expect that a release of info form will be given out or it will be added on to the NCL contract  when you are allowed to get the e-docs. It is the only way to confirm that you are vaccinated. Or a release from  your state saying you were vaccinated.

 

Cruise line's are NOT going to want to get into the business of validating that kind of info.

 

Before Covid, when you went to board the ship you filled out a medical form that you attested you had no flu or stomach symptoms in the last 72hr or something like that. If while on the ship, you got sick, they sent notes to your stateroom, and in some cases confined you to quarters depending on how sick you were.

 

Covid Vaccine certification is IMO going to be closer (not the same but closer) to that process. Maybe they give you the ability to upload or show at the dock your CDC card, but I think they are more likely to have you sign something attesting that you "Certify" you are vaccinated, but it will have harsher language...IF it it determined that you falsified this certification, you will be confined to stateroom, turned over to authorities, banned for life from cruising, etc. Sure you will always get people who lie (aka human). But the more severe the punishment for that lie, the more likely you have a high percentage of people telling the truth.

 

Edit  - just curious, even if some lie, what % do you really think will do that. 5%? CDC is already assuming you have 5% non vaccinated. My guess, its a LOW number

Edited May 7, 2021 by jrapps

[DCGuy64]

1 hour ago, coffeebean said:

Those folks who cannot take the vaccine for medical issues will just have to wait until this vaccine mandate is dropped. They will have to find another way to vacation. Sorry, but that is the only way the cruise lines can fulfill the CDC mandates involving vaccines. 

 

2 minutes ago, coffeebean said:

Not true? What am I missing about the CDC mandates? Are you referring to the 98% crew and 95% passenger mandate for vaccines? To me, that is just as good as mandating 100% vaccinated crew/passengers.

Not true what you said in the first part about people who can't take the vaccine will just have to wait. No, they don't. If they have some other immunity than through vaccines, they can still travel. People like me who've had Covid and recovered can still travel, no vaccine required. It is NOT, as you state, "the only way the cruise lines can fulfill...."

 

[tumblew467]

2 minutes ago, jrapps said:

Cruise line's are NOT going to want to get into the business of validating that kind of info.

 

Before Covid, when you went to board the ship you filled out a medical form that you attested you had no flu or stomach symptoms in the last 72hr or something like that. If while on the ship, you got sick, they sent notes to your stateroom, and in some cases confined you to quarters depending on how sick you were.

 

Covid Vaccine certification is IMO going to be closer (not the same but closer) to that process. Maybe they give you the ability to upload or show at the dock your CDC card, but I think they are more likely to have you sign something attesting that you "Certify" you are vaccinated, but it will have harsher language...IF it it determined that you falsified this certification, you will be confined to stateroom, turned over to authorities, banned for life from cruising, etc. Sure you will always get people who lie (aka human). But the more severe the punishment for that lie, the more likely you have a high percentage of people telling the truth.

Who knows what they will do. But this is totally different than having Noro or  the seasonal flu. And how would they  determine if you falsified info on the questionnaire regarding being vaccinated? 

[coffeebean]

1 hour ago, rfs7306 said:

Do you have an autoimmune disease ? Its not the short term it's long term which we do not know  but I have heard of people having problems fairly soon after the injection and not just a sore arm or flu like symptoms'. What about the people in the ports you are visiting? Are you sure they are all immunized. If not do you intend to stay on the ship to avoid exposure? Do you grocery shop, go to work, out for dinner etc. and are you sure everyone  you come in contact with is immunized. I don't think so.  My concern is not unwarranted your unconcern for future complications from the vaccine is disturbing . Why should someone have to forgo a cruise which in itself is taking a chance but someone who prefers not to get the shot can't cruise . See my point? 

 

 

If you are so concerned about my unconcern, how do you feel about the CDC which advocates people with autoimmune diseases get vaccinated? I don't think you should be as concerned about my opinions and you should be more concerned with the experts who actually advocate vaccination for folks with autoimmune diseases.

 

As an aside.......Diabetes is an autoimmune disease and that is extremely common among Americans. Fuel for thought.

Edited May 7, 2021 by coffeebean

[jrapps]

Just now, tumblew467 said:

Who knows what they will do. But this is totally different than having Noro or  the seasonal flu. And how would they  determine if you falsified info on the questionnaire regarding being vaccinated? 

I have no idea, but to me it's a "kick the can" response. The only way they would ever care if you falsified it is if they have an outbreak on the ship. They said if 1.5% get sick and test positive, the whole cruise ends. So say 30 people on the ship get sick, everyone is confined to quarters, the sailing "ends". There has to be some post-mortem required by the CDC at that point anyway, seems logical to think this becomes a part of that process. Go thru records of everyone on ship. 

 

I never said it was a perfect system or concept, just one that gets them sailing with the least possible work upfront.

[Navis]

I hope falsification doesn’t become a big issue for cruises and I’m hopeful that the recents arrests and prosecutions for people trying to sell fake vaccine cards will serve as sufficient deterrent.

 

But if not, there is at least one other option to provide the cruise lines with a better sense of accuracy ... they could require serology tests showing the presence of antibodies in the bloodstream prior to boarding. Maybe combine the two? Either provide certifiable proof of vaccination or recent serology results showing the presence of antibodies in your bloodstream. 
 

Lots of logistical issues of course, but perhaps that could be an accommodation? 

[coffeebean]

35 minutes ago, DCGuy64 said:

 

Not true what you said in the first part about people who can't take the vaccine will just have to wait. No, they don't. If they have some other immunity than through vaccines, they can still travel. People like me who've had Covid and recovered can still travel, no vaccine required. It is NOT, as you state, "the only way the cruise lines can fulfill...."

 

I wasn't referring to traveling such as airline travel, train travel or any other type of public transportation. My comment was regarding cruising. Hasn't NCL mandated that 100% of crew and 100% of passengers must be vaccinated in order to board any of their ships? This is what I am basing that statement on. No????

Edited May 7, 2021 by coffeebean

[graphicguy]

22 minutes ago, jrapps said:

I have no idea, but to me it's a "kick the can" response. The only way they would ever care if you falsified it is if they have an outbreak on the ship. They said if 1.5% get sick and test positive, the whole cruise ends. So say 30 people on the ship get sick, everyone is confined to quarters, the sailing "ends". There has to be some post-mortem required by the CDC at that point anyway, seems logical to think this becomes a part of that process. Go thru records of everyone on ship. 

 

I never said it was a perfect system or concept, just one that gets them sailing with the least possible work upfront.

It's too late if a COVID outbreak happens on a ship.  That's what NCL is avoiding by insisting on total 100% Vaccine requirement.

 

We've been through this over and over.  Regardless of your reason, non-reason, etc, you aren't sailing on NCL from a FL port unless you show NCL proof of the COVOD vaccine being administered to you.

 

There are different ways to show you're been vaccinated.  One is the CDC card.  Forge, counterfeit, or in any way change it, and your looking at a Federal offense and a felony.  That's the same as trying to forge, counterfeit or illegally change your passport (which you'll also need to get on the ship).

 

NCL has told Desantis that unless he allows them to require proof of COVID Vaccine to 100% of those who embark, they will pull out of FL.  They've already begun that by sailing out of Jamaica starting in August.

 

He's screwed the cruise industry, as well as those who were looking forward to the revenue they receive from passengers.

 

That said, I'm sure Jamaica  is thrilled with this turn of events.

[coffeebean]

3 hours ago, GA Dave said:

Just an FYI about a related tourist-based business.  Universal Orlando removed their 6-foot social distancing requirements yesterday.  They now "recommend" 3-foot distances, but removed all of those annoying distancing stickers from all of the attraction lines, etc.

I'm waiting for Disney to drop the mask mandate OUTDOORS. That is the next very important step to normalcy.

[DCGuy64]

6 minutes ago, coffeebean said:

This is what I am basing that statement on. No????

First of all, 4 question marks? Really? Calm down.

Second, no, you didn't say NCL you said "the cruise lines," plural. Which clearly means all of them, but it certainly does not mean only NCL.

[RunBikeCruiseDC]

2 hours ago, coffeebean said:

Those folks who cannot take the vaccine for medical issues will just have to wait until this vaccine mandate is dropped. They will have to find another way to vacation. Sorry, but that is the only way the cruise lines can fulfill the CDC mandates involving vaccines. 
 

Regarding people with autoimmune diseases, the CDC encourages people with autoimmune diseases to get vaccinated. Has there been any correlation or concern with the vacccines and autoimmune diseases? I have not heard any discussion from experts that say there could be a problem in the future. I think your concern is unwarranted. 

I asked our epi this the other week due to the popularity of immunosuppressants being used so often today.  No more side effect that those without autoimmune disease but it's still an unknown how long they would be protected.   I would suspect they would need boosters more often the the average population.