Cruising affordability

[navybankerteacher]

5 hours ago, ldubs said:

 

I'm tending to agree in principal, but have concerns about trade schools being more about student loan money grabs than about graduating students that know anything about their intended trade.    

Such private trade schools only cropped up because public educators lost sight of their mission and obligation - and fell into the pretty-sounding trap of believing that egalitarianism required that all should be treated identically — while ignoring the hard fact that all people are not the same.

 

 

[ontheweb]

7 hours ago, navybankerteacher said:

Such private trade schools only cropped up because public educators lost sight of their mission and obligation - and fell into the pretty-sounding trap of believing that egalitarianism required that all should be treated identically — while ignoring the hard fact that all people are not the same.

 

 

And what followed that was that standardized test scores became the way schools were perceived. Testing was meant to be a way to evaluate individual students, not to rank schools. And since schools were ranked by how many did not reach some arbitrary score, high achieving students did not always receive their due as scarce resources were channeled to those at the bottom.

 

The one thing I would change from your post is that POLITICIANS were the ones who forced that change upon educators. They changed each student should be seen as an individual and to strive to do what was best for each to everyone is equal. This did not recognize that some had different talents.

[dogs4fun]

On 6/14/2021 at 9:32 AM, iancal said:

we are doing  less cruising and far more independent land travel.   Not only because of price or value but because it has become our preference.  We will still cruise, but only as an add on to a land trip.    It will be interesting to see how the industry changes over the next few years.

We are of the same mind - we prefer land travel but do enjoy cruises (particularly river cruises) as an add-on to our land travel.

[ontheweb]

4 hours ago, ontheweb said:

And what followed that was that standardized test scores became the way schools were perceived. Testing was meant to be a way to evaluate individual students, not to rank schools. And since schools were ranked by how many did not reach some arbitrary score, high achieving students did not always receive their due as scarce resources were channeled to those at the bottom.

 

The one thing I would change from your post is that POLITICIANS were the ones who forced that change upon educators. They changed each student should be seen as an individual and to strive to do what was best for each to everyone is equal. This did not recognize that some had different talents.

Let me see if I can better state my feelings on this subject.

 

Educators with a push from politicians have confused equal opportunity with equal outcomes. Every student should have every opportunity available, but each individual has different capabilities and will take advantage differently. To use a sports example, anyone can try out for the school basketball teams, but not all will make the team. To now translate that to academics, if a high school has a calculus course in its curriculum, it should be there for all students, but many will not end up taking it.

 

And on the other end of both those examples, those that don't make the basketball team still must take some phys. ed. courses, and those who do not get to take calculus still must master basic math skills.

 

[ldubs]

15 hours ago, ontheweb said:

That is a another different problem rooting out the schools that are not real schools, but only in it for the money. 

 

Rooting them out isn't a problem.  Doing something about it.  That is a problem.  

 

 

[ldubs]

12 hours ago, navybankerteacher said:

Such private trade schools only cropped up because public educators lost sight of their mission and obligation - and fell into the pretty-sounding trap of believing that egalitarianism required that all should be treated identically — while ignoring the hard fact that all people are not the same.

 

 

 

IDK.  Even existing schools seem to have refocused on $$$$.  

[SelectSys]

19 hours ago, ldubs said:

 

I'm tending to agree in principal, but have concerns about trade schools being more about student loan money grabs than about graduating students that know anything about their intended trade.    

What about state schools laying kids away with debt for degrees that have limited economic prospects?  These loans have simply served to bloat a bureaucracy and do little for the people they claim to help.  No wonder all the young waiters and store clerks with BS degrees want loan forgiveness.  

 

2 hours ago, ontheweb said:

Educators with a push from politicians have confused equal opportunity with equal outcomes. Every student should have every opportunity available, but each individual has different capabilities and will take advantage differently...

 

And on the other end of both those examples, those that don't make the basketball team still must take some phys. ed. courses, and those who do not get to take calculus still must master basic math skills.

 

It actually started in the universities and then migrated to politics as the "boomers" came of age.   Now it being taken to a whole new level.  Even basic math literacy is questioned these days.

 

1 hour ago, ldubs said:

 

Rooting them out isn't a problem.  Doing something about it.  That is a problem.  

Not happening anytime in CA soon with the public employee teachers union being the number 1 political force in our state.

 

1 hour ago, ldubs said:

 

IDK.  Even existing schools seem to have refocused on $$$$.  

As institutions are simply reflections of their members, they always seek to protect and grow themselves.  

 

With respect to price increases:

https://think.ing.com/articles/inflation-really-nothing-to-worry-about

While this cost-push inflation is already in full swing in the US, the later reopening of the eurozone economy, faced with similar global producer price pressures, should lead to an acceleration here in short order. In both the US and eurozone, producer price expectations are close to record highs. With the forthcoming summer holiday season and further reopening of economies, prices in the retail and services space are likely to pick up further. Also, don’t forget that the year-on-year comparison will be one between reopening and lockdowns, accentuating YoY inflation. For the eurozone, inflation is currently still mainly driven by base effects, while the US is already seeing a strong increase in three-month inflation as well.

Edited June 22, 2021 by SelectSys

[ontheweb]

2 hours ago, ldubs said:

 

Rooting them out isn't a problem.  Doing something about it.  That is a problem.  

 

 

I have no problem agreeing with that.

[rkacruiser]

10 hours ago, ontheweb said:

Every student should have every opportunity available, but each individual has different capabilities and will take advantage differently.

 

Certainly.  A college degree is not needed or wanted by many.  Nor, do we want a plumber to have a B.S. in plumbing from XYZ university.  Imagine what "their" rates might be?  

 

Years ago, Ohio Governor James A. Rhodes recognized the need for my State to establish vocational schools for such students.  These schools have flourished, have grown, some have morphed into community colleges and award Associate Degrees for many, one of which I am aware now is certificated to award Bachelor degrees, and many have developed relationships with Ohio universities--public and private--to allow those students to continue their education in pursuit of a Bachelor's degree.  For those students who choose only to gain a technical education without a degree, their skills are in much demand.  At least in my community, efforts are being made to make our high school students, and those who find employment challenging, to be aware of and to help them utilize the opportunities that exist.

 

21 hours ago, navybankerteacher said:

Such private trade schools only cropped up because public educators lost sight of their mission and obligation

 

We, the educators did not loose sight of our mission and why we entered the profession.  Politics was the "iceburg" that sunk what had been promising and successful curricula once it gained a "foothold".  If I need to, I can cite chapter and verse as to what happened to science curricula when politics dictated what my students ought to learn.  However, CC is not the place for such a discussion.

 

14 hours ago, ontheweb said:

The one thing I would change from your post is that POLITICIANS were the ones who forced that change upon educators.

 

When I entered the education profession, there were State mandated requirements that had to be met.  If funding for a school district was to be maintained by the State.  Not to be outdone, our worthy Congresspeople in Washington added their voice.  Much of those initial political forays into educational practice were beneficial and helped students with whom I worked.  As the years went by, more such requirements kept appearing.  Some, with no obvious educational basis other than a political basis.  That's when education began to go "off the rails" as to being a benefit for the general populace.  The experience of educators in the field were replaced by the "opinions/beliefs" of the politicians in State capitols and in Congress who "knew so much more than the practitioners".  

 

And, thus, that is where we are today in June, 2021.  Not much has changed.  My State's funding of our public schools was found to be unconstitutional by our State Supreme Court years ago.  Maybe the current Bill in Conference Committee in Columbus will make a major change.  Me?  Not expecting such.  

[navybankerteacher]

4 minutes ago, rkacruiser said:

...

 

 

We, the educators did not loose sight of our mission and why we entered the profession.  Politics was the "iceburg" that sunk what had been promising and successful curricula once it gained a "foothold".  If I need to, I can cite chapter and verse as to what happened to science curricula when politics dictated what my students ought to learn.  However, CC is not the place for such a discussion.

...

Politicians are elected, and they reflect the values of those who elect them.  The fact is that teachers unions - NEA and AFT are among the largest unions in the country - and are courted by the state and local politicians whom they have a large part in electing - who in turn ultimately negotiate their contracts.   There is a symbiotic relationship - which makes it impossible for educators to deny some responsibility.

[rkacruiser]

16 minutes ago, navybankerteacher said:

There is a symbiotic relationship - which makes it impossible for educators to deny some responsibility.

 

No attempt by me to deny some responsibility.  Fully realize on all levels of government as to the attempt for educators to make known to the policy makers as to what we believe to be in the best interest of our students (and, of course, ourselves) 

 

On the local level, I have been actively involved during my career with such attempts.  Some efforts succeeded; some didn't.  That's the way our country ought to work.  

 

23 minutes ago, navybankerteacher said:

NEA and AFT are among the largest unions in the country - and are courted by the state and local politicians whom they have a large part in electing 

 

What you are saying may be true for some States.  No longer true for my State regarding influencing who is elected.  If it ever was.  Endorsements/money?  Always welcome.  Make a difference in our elections?  The State and National organizations would like for us members to believe that it does make a difference.  Pardon my cynicism.  I am not so sure.  

[ldubs]

I have a huge amount of respect for educators.  Any time I found myself in that role (as part of a business need, not as a traditional classroom teacher) it was reinforced I have very little patience.

[ontheweb]

9 hours ago, rkacruiser said:

 

Certainly.  A college degree is not needed or wanted by many.  Nor, do we want a plumber to have a B.S. in plumbing from XYZ university.  Imagine what "their" rates might be?  

 

Years ago, Ohio Governor James A. Rhodes recognized the need for my State to establish vocational schools for such students.  These schools have flourished, have grown, some have morphed into community colleges and award Associate Degrees for many, one of which I am aware now is certificated to award Bachelor degrees, and many have developed relationships with Ohio universities--public and private--to allow those students to continue their education in pursuit of a Bachelor's degree.  For those students who choose only to gain a technical education without a degree, their skills are in much demand.  At least in my community, efforts are being made to make our high school students, and those who find employment challenging, to be aware of and to help them utilize the opportunities that exist.

 

 

We, the educators did not loose sight of our mission and why we entered the profession.  Politics was the "iceburg" that sunk what had been promising and successful curricula once it gained a "foothold".  If I need to, I can cite chapter and verse as to what happened to science curricula when politics dictated what my students ought to learn.  However, CC is not the place for such a discussion.

 

 

When I entered the education profession, there were State mandated requirements that had to be met.  If funding for a school district was to be maintained by the State.  Not to be outdone, our worthy Congresspeople in Washington added their voice.  Much of those initial political forays into educational practice were beneficial and helped students with whom I worked.  As the years went by, more such requirements kept appearing.  Some, with no obvious educational basis other than a political basis.  That's when education began to go "off the rails" as to being a benefit for the general populace.  The experience of educators in the field were replaced by the "opinions/beliefs" of the politicians in State capitols and in Congress who "knew so much more than the practitioners".  

 

And, thus, that is where we are today in June, 2021.  Not much has changed.  My State's funding of our public schools was found to be unconstitutional by our State Supreme Court years ago.  Maybe the current Bill in Conference Committee in Columbus will make a major change.  Me?  Not expecting such.  

NY state's highest court years and years ago found that the state's school funding was not meeting the state's constitution when it came to the poorest districts. But that hasn't changed much since they do not do the funding legislation. The state legislature and the governor do that and somehow the policies have not changed.

[ontheweb]

9 hours ago, navybankerteacher said:

Politicians are elected, and they reflect the values of those who elect them.  The fact is that teachers unions - NEA and AFT are among the largest unions in the country - and are courted by the state and local politicians whom they have a large part in electing - who in turn ultimately negotiate their contracts.   There is a symbiotic relationship - which makes it impossible for educators to deny some responsibility.

Yes, the teachers' unions make endorsements and provide money. But politicians often do not listen to them, especially when it comes to the issue of standardized testing. And of course, they never get all the funding that they want.

[rkacruiser]

On 6/23/2021 at 6:44 AM, ontheweb said:

NY state's highest court years and years ago found that the state's school funding was not meeting the state's constitution when it came to the poorest districts. 

 

As Ohio's State Supreme Court many years ago.  The 2021-2022 Budget Bill is in Conference Committee in our General Assembly with the House's version of public education funding doing a decent job of meeting our State's Supreme Court's rulings of so long ago.  The Ohio Senate disagrees.  Too expensive in the future, they say.  Yet, they want another income tax cut that is 3% greater than what the House passed.  (Both Houses are GOP.)  The members of one House must put their pants on differently than the members of the other House?