Woe With O ---Marina 12/1 Changes

[Hlitner]

Look folks, I do understand that Flatbush Flyer is true "cheerleader" for O which is fine.  Just about every cruise line has its cheerleaders.  As one who is a "cheerleader" for the cruise industry (not any particular cruise line) I feel a bond with anyone who enjoys cruising :).   Although DW and I do enjoy really good food (not often found on cruise lines) we cruise for more then the food and have never starved on any line.  We do understand that O does emphasize their cuisine and we will trust O fans that the food on the line is excellent.  But the question for me is at what price point is O a good value when compared to their competition.  And I have a difficult time thinking that O is worth the $500+ per passenger day they are demanding on many of their 2023 cruises.  In economics we have a term called "price elasticity" which when translated to the cruise industry means how much a cruise line can charge before there is price resistance and bookings suffer.  I think that O (and some other lines) are now exploring price elasticity and we shall see if they can hold up those future prices.  If not, there will likely be some decent promotions and last minute discounting.  One "truth" about cruise lines is that they do not want to have empty berths.  An empty berth translates to "opportunity lost revenue" (another economic term) which is money lost forever.  

 

In the past, some decent cruise lines have failed (and even gone into bankruptcy) because they guessed wrong on pricing and marketing.  One notable line, Renaissance, did things their own way (kind of like O does now) and did well until they didn't.  Ironically, several of their ships became the original basis of "O" and Azamara.  DW and I really liked everything about Renaissance but their very insistence of doing things their way contributed to their bankruptcy.   There is a lesson there. 

 

 It remains to be seen if all the cruise lines will be able to ultimately survive the awful financial losses attributed to COVID.  I do think that NCLH is vulnerable because of the huge debt service obligations caused by the COVID shutdown.  We shall see if FDR is able to keep his companies afloat in the next couple of years.  The truth is that the only cruise line on truly solid footing is MSC because they are still privately held and have amazing cash flow due to the family also owning the MSC Container Ship empire (which will likely have record profits this year).   The other major cruise companies (CCL, RCI and NCLH) are now heavily leveraged because of the extra debt taken on to survive COVID. 

 

Hank 

 

 

[ORV]

1 hour ago, shepherd really said:

It would have been much more impressive if "in the beginning" Oceania did the right thing, rather than in the end. 

 

I guess us "rounding errors" expect better treatment than that.  

In all fairness to Oceania there are extenuating circumstances here. It's pretty obvious that originally proper avenues were trying to be circumvented. In the end when they were followed he got the outcome he wanted. 

Edited November 18, 2021 by ORV

[shepherd really]

15 minutes ago, Flatbush Flyer said:

The sum total of my many responses (on this issue) to Hank et al. basically said: “You are SOL if you expect O (or any cruise line) to violate its own T&Cs without adhering to its regular process for requesting exceptions.”  

I’ve also posted in many similar “complaint” threads here on CC that O will consider exceptions to policies on a case-by-case basis. In addition, I offered several other approaches (beyond) a formal request for refund to come to some solution.

 

He chose the O request and got what he asked for.

 

The purpose of your need to tell me I was wrong?

Nah, you basically said suck it up buttercup, this is what you signed up for, you are just a rounding error and O doesn't need to accommodate you. 

 

 You tell people on this board the same thing repeatedly with a big dose of snark thrown in. 

 

The purpose of pointing out you were wrong is so others don't follow poor advice. 

[Flatbush Flyer]

1 minute ago, shepherd really said:

Nah, you basically said suck it up buttercup, this is what you signed up for, you are just a rounding error and O doesn't need to accommodate you. 

 

 You tell people on this board the same thing repeatedly with a big dose of snark thrown in. 

 

The purpose of pointing out you were wrong is so others don't follow poor advice. 

No soup for you.

[pinotlover]

I believe there is truth on both sides of the issue. Glad Hank got his money back and all is well. 
 

One of the interesting comparisons not made so far is the ever growing other Premium cruise line. I should be embarking today on Oceania in Istanbul, but Oceania cancelled for their convenience. I took a cruise on that other  Premium line this summer because Oceania had not yet chosen to resume sailing. 
 

I can tell you their food quality has improved significantly since their Ocean cruises started up a few years back. Significantly! Are they better than Oceania in cuisine? No, not yet.

 

However, to Hank’s point on price elasticity. I have always been straight forward that we sail for the ports and itineraries, the smaller ships, and the food. Breakfast is breakfast, not $1 difference in either line. We are not on the ship if the ship is in port, so no value except for a little ( maybe) on sea days. So Hank’s point ( and from a foodie) how much price difference can you get out of that one meal? $150/ night? Is that prime rib in the PG a $150 better than on that other Premium Line? That’s laughable by nature! 
 

When both have new(er) ships, disregarding the R ships, of the same size, with cabins close in size, with both having excellent service, and the same itineraries; then there is only so much most will pay extra for that prime rib for dinner. That does discount those that will pay the $150/ night for the frozen lobster tails in the Terrace they can get at Kroger for $6.99 each. Most of us can’t eat 20 lobster tails/ day! 😂

Edited November 18, 2021 by pinotlover

[Hlitner]

1 minute ago, ORV said:

In all fairness to Oceania there are extenuating circumstances here. It's pretty obvious that proper avenues were trying to be circumvented. In the end when they were followed he got the outcome he wanted. 

There should be no "fairness" attached to O with the Marina fiasco.  And it continues today (you might want to read through the Roll Call on the Dec 19 cruise).  "O" is about the last line standing in trying to keep South America itineraries through this winter (I believe Silverseas is also trying to keep one of their ships in that market).  DW and I did not want to cancel our Marina cruise, but it reached a point where there were too many uncertainties and lack of good communications from O (a complaint also being talked about on the 12/19 Roll Call).  When it comes to SA, it seems like the cruise lines take one step forward and then have to take two steps backwards when the various countries (and airlines) do not cooperate.  While it is not the fault of "O" that several governments have been "difficult" it is the fault of "O" that they chose (and continue to choose) to move forward with the Marina itineraries.  We do hope it works out for O (and the the passengers who continue to stick with their bookings).  I can say, with no hesitation, that we are sleeping a lot better since we cancelled that 12/1 Marina cruise.  

 

There are some unanswered questions about those cruises (12/1 and 12/19).   One wonders what on earth will happen if there is a COVID outbreak on either of those cruises.  At one point the Marina will have 5 straight sea days (in order to make the miles to Chile) and I sure would not want to be the person to get sick and end off being dumped in Chile during Christmas week.  And the small number of flights out of Santiago (coupled with some recent cancellations with no notice) are not a good situation considering those two cruises need to get passengers in and out of Santiago during Xmas week.  And then we have Latam Airlines who was quick to take advantage of the situation by jacking up their prices (by about 50%) within hours.   In some ways it has been a near perfect storm against "O" who we do think was trying very hard to continue these cruises as originally designed.  

 

DW and I are very risk tolerant and have been traveling throughout the Pandemic and will soon take our third cruise in 4 months!  But when so many things start to "go wrong" there is a point when it becomes wise to cut one's losses and toss in the towel.  At some point adventurous travelers learn to rely on their "gut" and with the Marina situation my gut was screaming....cancel cancel cancel.  

 

Hank

[ORV]

28 minutes ago, Hlitner said:

There should be no "fairness" attached to O with the Marina fiasco.  And it continues today (you might want to read through the Roll Call on the Dec 19 cruise).  "O" is about the last line standing in trying to keep South America itineraries through this winter (I believe Silverseas is also trying to keep one of their ships in that market).  DW and I did not want to cancel our Marina cruise, but it reached a point where there were too many uncertainties and lack of good communications from O (a complaint also being talked about on the 12/19 Roll Call).  When it comes to SA, it seems like the cruise lines take one step forward and then have to take two steps backwards when the various countries (and airlines) do not cooperate.  While it is not the fault of "O" that several governments have been "difficult" it is the fault of "O" that they chose (and continue to choose) to move forward with the Marina itineraries.  We do hope it works out for O (and the the passengers who continue to stick with their bookings).  I can say, with no hesitation, that we are sleeping a lot better since we cancelled that 12/1 Marina cruise.  

 

There are some unanswered questions about those cruises (12/1 and 12/19).   One wonders what on earth will happen if there is a COVID outbreak on either of those cruises.  At one point the Marina will have 5 straight sea days (in order to make the miles to Chile) and I sure would not want to be the person to get sick and end off being dumped in Chile during Christmas week.  And the small number of flights out of Santiago (coupled with some recent cancellations with no notice) are not a good situation considering those two cruises need to get passengers in and out of Santiago during Xmas week.  And then we have Latam Airlines who was quick to take advantage of the situation by jacking up their prices (by about 50%) within hours.   In some ways it has been a near perfect storm against "O" who we do think was trying very hard to continue these cruises as originally designed.  

 

DW and I are very risk tolerant and have been traveling throughout the Pandemic and will soon take our third cruise in 4 months!  But when so many things start to "go wrong" there is a point when it becomes wise to cut one's losses and toss in the towel.  At some point adventurous travelers learn to rely on their "gut" and with the Marina situation my gut was screaming....cancel cancel cancel.  

 

Hank

I don't disagree with anything you've said in this thread, for the most part. The point I was making was your TA not being involved in original communications with O when you first decided to cancel, and I understand there were issues there with that TA. From your posts that just seemed to add fuel to the fire for you in this situation, but should have been easily understandable.  I guess I just wonder why someone with your cruising and traveling experience would have been using that company in the first place. I'm sure you had your reasons. The important part is that you were made whole but it is unfortunate that it soured you toward Oceania. 

[ORV]

34 minutes ago, Hlitner said:

At some point adventurous travelers learn to rely on their "gut" and with the Marina situation my gut was screaming....cancel cancel cancel.  

To this point, I had a SA cruise booked in early 21, but I cancelled it when the Covid situation first started blowing up. My gut(and the SA government situations) told me that 22 wouldn't be good either. So I might consider SA in 23, but I was going to a primarily Brazil oriented cruise, and who knows what will happen there. I guess it depends on whether their government will charge their leader with "Charlatanism" as they have suggested. 

[Hlitner]

33 minutes ago, ORV said:

I don't disagree with anything you've said in this thread, for the most part. The point I was making was your TA not being involved in original communications with O when you first decided to cancel, and I understand there were issues there with that TA. From your posts that just seemed to add fuel to the fire for you in this situation, but should have been easily understandable.  I guess I just wonder why someone with your cruising and traveling experience would have been using that company in the first place. I'm sure you had your reasons. The important part is that you were made whole but it is unfortunate that it soured you toward Oceania. 

I agree with you assessment of the TA issue.  Having been at this cruise game for over 45 years I do understand the "rules" of the game.  But you might recall we had a situation where the particular cruise agency was completely non-responsive to phone call and e-mails.  It was only after trying multiple times (via e-mail and phone calls) that I was compelled to go directly to "O" and at least get on the record.  This ultimately turned around when I particular agent from that agency did finally respond (after more then a week) and has turned out to be a decent agent who has nearly 2 decades of experience.  Once we did have representation (by the agent) we followed the normal protocols working through that agent.  I have thanked (twice) this particular agent and even promised to buy her dinner if we ever are in her neck of the woods :).  

 

As to the company, I cannot mention or even hint at their name here because of CC rules.  However the particular agency is one of those high volume cruise agencies (which gets special recognition from O) who has had an excellent reputation for at least 2 decades.  At one point we wondered if they had simply gone out of business (many agencies have folded).  Although we do not use this agency for many cruises they have previously been our "go to" agency when we booked Celebrity and seemed like the perfect fit when dealing with 'O" since they enjoy special status (Flatbush Flyer has often suggested folks use these type of agencies).   It turned out that our particular agent (who worked for that agency) is no longer employed by the agency.  This particular agency was apparently (or so they say) completely overwhelmed with cruise issues at a time when they had significantly reduced their staff.  I should add that it was not helpful to this agency (who apparently had a number of clients booked on the Marina) when "O" started sending out mixed messages on the cruises.    What made the situation even worse (for us) was that the once "O" did send us an e-mail they specifically included a time frame for us to respond (4 business days) so patience was not possible.  So now you have the "rest of the story."  :). 

 

One other minor thing.  Based on some very good counsel we were advised that we had to reach out directly to O to preserve some legal rights in case there was no reasonable resolution to the problem.   Fortunately we did not need to elevate the issue beyond the normal dealings between cruiser/cruise line/cruise agency.  All is well that ends well although our goal had always been to take that cruise from Miami to Lima!  It was simply not meant to be.

 

Hank

[Paulchili]

11 hours ago, Hlitner said:

As we posted, we did ask our cruise agent to formally request a complete refund and did write an e-mail (forwarded to O) setting forth several reasons.  This was elevated to a higher level at O and they took about 2 days to approve our request.  The funds have all been credited back to our credit card.  So at this point we came out of this Marina mess absolutely whole.  Delta Airlines was very nice and gave us back our miles (and taxes) for our booked flight from Lima to BWI.  And we changed our flight to Florida (where we were going to join the Marina) to one day earlier so that we could get to our Princess ship (replaces the Marina cruise).  

 

 

 

Hank

I find it interesting that your complaint abour Oceania;s treatment of you was posted by you voluntarily while the positive outcome (full refund) took someone's prodding. I would have shouted that great outcome here instantly without being asked.

Also, Delta has no possible way not to refund your miles and taxes if you cancel ahead of your flight - no favor from them. The question is whether they charged you for the redeposit of those miles.

PS Glad that you were able to get a full refund. I know the elation as we were able to get 4 full refunds vs FCC early on in COVID

Edited November 19, 2021 by Paulchili

[Hlitner]

38 minutes ago, Paulchili said:

I find it interesting that your complaint abour Oceania;s treatment of you was posted by you voluntarily while the positive outcome (full refund) took someone's prodding. I would have shouted that great outcome here instantly without being asked.

Also, Delta has no possible way not to refund your miles and taxes if you cancel ahead of your flight - no favor from them. The question is whether they charged you for the redeposit of those miles.

PS Glad that you were able to get a full refund. I know the elation as we were able to get 4 full refunds vs FCC early on in COVID

I did not see any reason to "gloat" about my deal with O.  But I did think it reasonable to answer the question.  And furthermore, the money was not actually refunded until yesterday and we were not aware of that fact until this morning.  Our cruise agent advised us that it could take up to 60 days to see any refund and we thought it wise to wait until the money was actually refunded until we disclosed the resolution of the matter.  We thought it appropriate to post our original issue as a head's up to others booked on the Marina.  

 

As to Delta (bless their heart) they did not charge me anything for the redeposit of the miles.  They also surprised me when they indicated that they would refund the related taxes we had paid (about $51 per ticket) and that money was credited back to my credit card within 3 days.  There were no redeposit fees.   I have absolutely nothing but praise for Delta (in this matter).  Once I explained the situation involved a cruise line they quickly elevated the issue and it was resolved within a few minutes (once I was off of hold).  I will take a little credit because we always realized there was some risk doing our own air on this cruise so intentionally used miles because of the liberal policy on refunding miles.  If we had paid cash Delta would have given us a voucher which would have likely end dated a year from the booking date.  But with miles there is no expiration date.  

 

We are on record (early in the pandemic) as suggesting that folks should take refunds (if available) as FCCs always come with various restrictions.  FCCs are also worthless in the event that a cruise line were to eventually file for bankruptcy.   And with all our travel planning we actually did have one bankruptcy which was with Flybe Airlines (an English regional airline) on a flight from Southampton to Paris (after a cruise).  In that particular case we had to file for a "charge back" with our credit card company which was quickly granted.

 

We have been around long enough to have been involved in two cruise line bankruptcies (Regency and Renaissance) so do understand that it can happen.  Keep in mind that once you accept a FCC you have effectively given up some important rights such as seeking a credit card charge back or filing a trip insurance claim.  A FCC is only as good as the future of the cruise line and takes away one's ability to shop around among other cruise/travel providers.  Accepting a FCC equal to what one pays is simply trading in cash for a voucher.  While cash is truly fungible, a FCC (or voucher) is very restrictive.  We may book another O cruise but it will be because we truly want to book a future cruise...not because we must use a FCC.

 

Hank

[Flatbush Flyer]

6 hours ago, Hlitner said:

Look folks, I do understand that Flatbush Flyer is true "cheerleader" for O....

Hate to burst your bubble.... but, 

I am not a “cheerleader” for any product or service. I do however passionately share (and throughly research/explain) my preferences when I know it will help folks make an informed decision.

“Cheerleaders” want their “team” to win (regardless of the team’s skill). I could care less who wins the “better cruise line” trophy. However, I do care a lot about consumers and the reality that, among O’s  passenger demographic, there is a critical mass of individuals who no longer need to cruise on lines other than O (perhaps only because they’ve never found their ideal “mix” elsewhere). 

[Homerody]

5 hours ago, Flatbush Flyer said:

Hate to burst your bubble.... but, 

I am not a “cheerleader” for any product or service. I do however passionately share (and throughly research/explain) my preferences when I know it will help folks make an informed decision.

“Cheerleaders” want their “team” to win (regardless of the team’s skill). I could care less who wins the “better cruise line” trophy. However, I do care a lot about consumers and the reality that, among O’s  passenger demographic, there is a critical mass of individuals who no longer need to cruise on lines other than O (perhaps only because they’ve never found their ideal “mix” elsewhere). 

I'm ummm, er.... "diving" back into this fray.   Au contraire mon frère.

 

When semantics and definitions are used to defend one's position others may (appropriately?) conclude that said individual doth protest too much.

 

Having said that, however, I come to CC or any specialized board (frequent flier, travel etc...) to share information and experience.  Admittedly, I am not a super cruiser like most on CC so I often am here to get more information, and offer what limited information I have about cruising.

 

As an O newbie, I came here to ask questions about O.  Information from well informed and experienced O cruisers has been invaluable.  Does this type of information come from an O detractor, most likely not.  Or a casual O cruiser?   Naaaah....,   Does the information come with a dose of positive spin, humor, snark, and my favorite - why didn't you read 20,000 related posts from 2015 you dumba**?  Sure it does.  And most of the time, the information is well worth the side stuff.

 

I also keep in mind that,  on O or another line,  the perks and "privileges" that come with mega status  in turn feed the positive image and opinion one has of O. But that mega cruiser has the ins and outs that may help me with my first booking and O experience overall.

 

Conversely, the ones that do not have a positive experience, the cruise line free agents/agnostics, and yes even the detractors and just plain contrarians (plenty of those here) offer well reasoned points to ponder and throw into the mix.

 

The discussion in this thread has been an instructive experience both on the macro and micro levels of O opinions and O pandemic cruising in general.

 

As cruise line free agent myself, this has been invaluable insight.

[Guppy99]

9 hours ago, Hlitner said:

I did not see any reason to "gloat" about my deal with O.  But I did think it reasonable to answer the question.  And furthermore, the money was not actually refunded until yesterday and we were not aware of that fact until this morning.  Our cruise agent advised us that it could take up to 60 days to see any refund and we thought it wise to wait until the money was actually refunded until we disclosed the resolution of the matter.  We thought it appropriate to post our original issue as a head's up to others booked on the Marina.  

 

As to Delta (bless their heart) they did not charge me anything for the redeposit of the miles.  They also surprised me when they indicated that they would refund the related taxes we had paid (about $51 per ticket) and that money was credited back to my credit card within 3 days.  There were no redeposit fees.   I have absolutely nothing but praise for Delta (in this matter).  Once I explained the situation involved a cruise line they quickly elevated the issue and it was resolved within a few minutes (once I was off of hold).  I will take a little credit because we always realized there was some risk doing our own air on this cruise so intentionally used miles because of the liberal policy on refunding miles.  If we had paid cash Delta would have given us a voucher which would have likely end dated a year from the booking date.  But with miles there is no expiration date.  

 

We are on record (early in the pandemic) as suggesting that folks should take refunds (if available) as FCCs always come with various restrictions.  FCCs are also worthless in the event that a cruise line were to eventually file for bankruptcy.   And with all our travel planning we actually did have one bankruptcy which was with Flybe Airlines (an English regional airline) on a flight from Southampton to Paris (after a cruise).  In that particular case we had to file for a "charge back" with our credit card company which was quickly granted.

 

We have been around long enough to have been involved in two cruise line bankruptcies (Regency and Renaissance) so do understand that it can happen.  Keep in mind that once you accept a FCC you have effectively given up some important rights such as seeking a credit card charge back or filing a trip insurance claim.  A FCC is only as good as the future of the cruise line and takes away one's ability to shop around among other cruise/travel providers.  Accepting a FCC equal to what one pays is simply trading in cash for a voucher.  While cash is truly fungible, a FCC (or voucher) is very restrictive.  We may book another O cruise but it will be because we truly want to book a future cruise...not because we must use a FCC.

 

Hank

Good for you,, sincerely, that this worked out how you wanted it to.  from a financial perspective it never make sense to accept a dollar or dollar FCC instead of a refund. In essence your giving the cruise line use of your money, instead of yourself, until the new cruise sails. However, in my case, on another line, I received had a choice of a full refund or 125% in FFC. That did make sense as tying up my money for  8 months certainly a better deal.

 

I do think that you were very quick to berate the cruise line, under difficult and unprecedented circumstances before giving them a chance to respond to you.  However, once again, glad it worked out to your satisfaction.

[Hlitner]

20 hours ago, Flatbush Flyer said:

Yes- the cruise industry is one where “you get what you pay for.” Years ago, we cruised on the likes of NCL and RCCL. Each was a “one and done” (terrible food, thundering herds, nickel/diming). No thanks!

I cannot resist commenting :).  We agree with you about RCCL (now using RCI).  Many years ago it was our favorite cruise line (DD was Diamond by age 15) but we outgrew that line which no longer meets our "wants."  That being said we would consider RCI again for a transatlantic cruise (we do many of these to get to an from Europe) if it took us where we wanted to go at the right time.   NCL was my first cruise line (Sunward II back in 1977) but our last cruise with them was when they had the Norway (the old France).  We would consider NCL again (likely for a repositioning cruise) but only in their Haven Suites (a ship within a ship experience).

 

Our current "go to" lines have been HAL and Princess.  In fact when we cancelled the Marina we quickly (within the hour) booked a 20 day on the new Enchanted Princess.  According to that line this will be our 40th cruise with them so I guess we know the line well.  There is no doubt their food is not in the same league as O, but the price is right and unlike the Marina the Enchanted Princess will actually stick to its published itinerary and debarkation port :).   In terms of food Princess does shine with their amazing pizza (we think it is the best at sea) and International Cafe (open 24/7) which is my personal hang-out.  Princess also has decent entertainment.   As to HAL, that line has recently gotten some bad reviews and we are concerned that it may be degrading into something not so good.  Like everything post COVID we will need to wait and see.

 

Hank

 

Hank

 

 

[ak1004]

Hank,

 

I'm glad you got your refund. And I agree with you 100% regarding O air program. It is not defendable. 

 

That said, not every cruise line has a good air program - Crystal air program is equally bad. For us, it's not a deal breaker.

 

I was surprised to read your comments about O prices compared to Seaborn.

 

I checked few Vista sailings for 2023 in Europe, and they are usually around $400-420 per person per night for veranda cabin, not $500+ you mentioned. Here are few examples:

 

https://www.oceaniacruises.com/mediterranean-cruises/lisbon-to-venice-VIS230506/

https://www.oceaniacruises.com/greek-isles-cruises/athens-to-istanbul-VIS230601/

 

Marina and Riviera are around $370-380.

 

At the same time, the cheapest I could find for Seaborn was around $540.

 

Not sure what am I missing and where did you see Seaborn cheaper than O.

[Jancruz]

21 hours ago, Hlitner said:

Look folks, I do understand that Flatbush Flyer is true "cheerleader" for O which is fine.  Just about every cruise line has its cheerleaders.  As one who is a "cheerleader" for the cruise industry (not any particular cruise line) I feel a bond with anyone who enjoys cruising :).   Although DW and I do enjoy really good food (not often found on cruise lines) we cruise for more then the food and have never starved on any line.  We do understand that O does emphasize their cuisine and we will trust O fans that the food on the line is excellent.  But the question for me is at what price point is O a good value when compared to their competition.  And I have a difficult time thinking that O is worth the $500+ per passenger day they are demanding on many of their 2023 cruises.  In economics we have a term called "price elasticity" which when translated to the cruise industry means how much a cruise line can charge before there is price resistance and bookings suffer.  I think that O (and some other lines) are now exploring price elasticity and we shall see if they can hold up those future prices.  If not, there will likely be some decent promotions and last minute discounting.  One "truth" about cruise lines is that they do not want to have empty berths.  An empty berth translates to "opportunity lost revenue" (another economic term) which is money lost forever.  

 

In the past, some decent cruise lines have failed (and even gone into bankruptcy) because they guessed wrong on pricing and marketing.  One notable line, Renaissance, did things their own way (kind of like O does now) and did well until they didn't.  Ironically, several of their ships became the original basis of "O" and Azamara.  DW and I really liked everything about Renaissance but their very insistence of doing things their way contributed to their bankruptcy.   There is a lesson there. 

 

 It remains to be seen if all the cruise lines will be able to ultimately survive the awful financial losses attributed to COVID.  I do think that NCLH is vulnerable because of the huge debt service obligations caused by the COVID shutdown.  We shall see if FDR is able to keep his companies afloat in the next couple of years.  The truth is that the only cruise line on truly solid footing is MSC because they are still privately held and have amazing cash flow due to the family also owning the MSC Container Ship empire (which will likely have record profits this year).   The other major cruise companies (CCL, RCI and NCLH) are now heavily leveraged because of the extra debt taken on to survive COVID. 

 

Hank 

 

 

Ren and O are absolutely nothing alike and do things completely differently....I know as I was aware of all going on at the time of Rens demise..

Jancruz1

 

Edited November 19, 2021 by Jancruz

[Jancruz]

20 hours ago, pinotlover said:

I believe there is truth on both sides of the issue. Glad Hank got his money back and all is well. 
 

One of the interesting comparisons not made so far is the ever growing other Premium cruise line. I should be embarking today on Oceania in Istanbul, but Oceania cancelled for their convenience. I took a cruise on that other  Premium line this summer because Oceania had not yet chosen to resume sailing. 
 

I can tell you their food quality has improved significantly since their Ocean cruises started up a few years back. Significantly! Are they better than Oceania in cuisine? No, not yet.

 

However, to Hank’s point on price elasticity. I have always been straight forward that we sail for the ports and itineraries, the smaller ships, and the food. Breakfast is breakfast, not $1 difference in either line. We are not on the ship if the ship is in port, so no value except for a little ( maybe) on sea days. So Hank’s point ( and from a foodie) how much price difference can you get out of that one meal? $150/ night? Is that prime rib in the PG a $150 better than on that other Premium Line? That’s laughable by nature! 
 

When both have new(er) ships, disregarding the R ships, of the same size, with cabins close in size, with both having excellent service, and the same itineraries; then there is only so much most will pay extra for that prime rib for dinner. That does discount those that will pay the $150/ night for the frozen lobster tails in the Terrace they can get at Kroger for $6.99 each. Most of us can’t eat 20 lobster tails/ day! 😂

That cruise line that was sailing that you went on..is for sale..

Jancruz1

[Hlitner]

6 hours ago, ak1004 said:

Hank,

 

I'm glad you got your refund. And I agree with you 100% regarding O air program. It is not defendable. 

 

That said, not every cruise line has a good air program - Crystal air program is equally bad. For us, it's not a deal breaker.

 

I was surprised to read your comments about O prices compared to Seaborn.

 

I checked few Vista sailings for 2023 in Europe, and they are usually around $400-420 per person per night for veranda cabin, not $500+ you mentioned. Here are few examples:

 

https://www.oceaniacruises.com/mediterranean-cruises/lisbon-to-venice-VIS230506/

https://www.oceaniacruises.com/greek-isles-cruises/athens-to-istanbul-VIS230601/

 

Marina and Riviera are around $370-380.

 

At the same time, the cheapest I could find for Seaborn was around $540.

 

Not sure what am I missing and where did you see Seaborn cheaper than O.

We were specifically looking at a Vista Canada/NE itinerary.  They have an itinerary from NYC to Montreal that would work with our home plans.

 

Hank

[ak1004]

2 hours ago, Hlitner said:

We were specifically looking at a Vista Canada/NE itinerary.  They have an itinerary from NYC to Montreal that would work with our home plans.

 

Hank

 

Okay, I see. I assume you are referring to this one? It is more expensive than most European cruises, but still slightly less than $500.

 

But if you look at similar itinerary on Seabourn, like this one, they start at $675 for OV or $725 for veranda.

 

So when comparing similar itineraries, Seabourn is still 30-40% more expensive.

 

I have yet to find a comparable Seabourn sailing that is not at least 20-30% more expensive than Oceania.