Tipping now more important than ever

[ilikeanswers]

8 hours ago, ldubs said:

As I said, I was sure this UK Blogger's comments would called bad info.  It is very convenient to disbelieve anything that does not support one's anti-tipping fervor.  

 

It is not convenient (I wouldn't call it fervour either, you did ask the question I merely answered it😝) except for the fact I happen to live in the country you were asking about😂. I have also had experiences that made me question what I read online like in Mexico I read articles saying the baseline tip was 20% but at one of our AirBnB apartments the owner left an essay about tipping saying that the baseline was really 10%. It also explained why over tipping was becoming a problem for the area and ask us to please respect the local customs. My extra comment about two types of information wasn't a pro or anti tipping comment just advice about how bad information is promulgated. 

 

8 hours ago, ldubs said:

Why not answer my first question.  Why, when service was good,  would you withhold the tip?   Have you ever withheld a gratuity on a cruise ship due to a service problem?  Did someone tackle you on the gangway?  Was your photo posted on some anti-tipping wall of shame?      The worst that might happen is someone will ask why you withdrew the gratuity. That would be perfectly acceptable, except  to those who pulled the tip for no good reason.    And of course, if someone were to proudly brag to their fellow passengers about how they don't tip, then yeah, people will likely consider it a low class move.  

 

If you know anything about shame then you understand that it does not need literal consequences, but the implied threat, it is why advertisers use it so often to manipulate us into needing things we don't need😂. I can't personally answer your first question because I don't live in your country so I conform since I am just a tourist in your country. You asked a question about perception, the difference between mandatory fees and the current DSC and that is my perception, based of talking to people, experiences, things I have read and heard and this thread isn't exactly recalibrating my perceptions either😂. I never claimed I have the "right" answer but that is how to me the tip system seems to work and why I personally would prefer a mandatory fee. 

 

5 hours ago, Toofarfromthesea said:

No, it is NOT promoted as voluntary.  Many new cruisers don't even know they can be removed. I've never seen any promotional material from a cruiselines trumpeting, "Andvremember, gratuities are voluntary!" But I think the cruiselines are pretty clear that they are expected to be paid unless the service was substandard, not removed because "I don't tip".  And if you really believe you are justified there should be no social stigma. 

 

It's like the old story.  "Mommy, Joey said I am ugly", "Are you ugly?", "No", "Then why do you care what Joey says?" 

 

It is even moreso in the tipping case, since you don't even really know Joey, or expect to see him again.  If you don't tip in a restaurant and an ill-mannered waiter calls you cheap that is not social stigma.  Unless in your heart you know he is right.  Same with cruise tips, except there the tip withholding is done without the affected employees even knowing it.  So where does this social stigma come from?  A message board?  Or maybe from your own head because you know you've done the wrong thing to someone who rightfully deserved better from you.

 

I'd bet a thousand pounds that you've never walked down the street in London and heard a little girl say, "Mummy, Mummy, isn't that the chap who removed the tips on his cruise?"

 

And yet you felt the need to rant about non tippers😂

 

5 hours ago, Toofarfromthesea said:

But counting up the number of countries you've been in to use in an inconsequential argument on the internet is a little . . . . strange.

 

Someone brought up the topic I just wanted to point out that some of us see it as a way to record our memories. I'm not sure why that would be considered strange. Maybe you misread something? 

 

3 hours ago, slidergirl said:

Sounds like a good reason to not do tours.  Like some others, I have not been asked nor pressured for a tip anywhere I've traveled.  

 

I wouldn't want to put people off tours. I just wanted to point out it is good to do your due diligence before handing over money just because someone asks. Unfortunately scamming tourists is still something that happens. 

Edited March 6, 2022 by ilikeanswers

[ontheweb]

5 hours ago, Mike981 said:

 

You reminded me of one of my moms favorite jokes.

"Mommy, mommy I'm getting dizzy! Shut up or I'll nail your other foot to the floor."

 

Yah, I come from strange stock.

 

Now back to your regularly scheduled program...

Well, that was completely different. Ok, I'll admit I just watched the memorial concert for George Harrison on my local PBS, and it included Monty Python. They very well could have acted out your post.'

 

And talk about asking for $ and trying to make people feel guilty, just watch one of these PBS special ask people for contributions shows. They make anyone who pressured you for a tip look like a bunch of pikers.

[ontheweb]

2 hours ago, Hlitner said:

We have a very similar philosophy.  We only do cruise line excursions if there is no reasonable way we can achieve our goals on our own or possibly with a very small group private tour.  I used to joke that "tour" is a 4 letter word I avoid.   To DW and I, being stuck on a typical bus-load cruise excursion (or any bus excursion) is a fate best left to our enemies 🙂   

All rules have an exception. The Bob Marley tour bus we took out of Ochos Rios was a truly wonderful experience. In addition to the great music, we saw a part of the country that the average cruiser never sees. 

[SelectSys]

2 hours ago, ilikeanswers said:

Mexico I read articles saying the baseline tip was 20% but at one of our AirBnB apartments the owner left an essay about tipping saying that the baseline was really 10%.

Correct - the baseline tip in restaurants is about 10% with 15% being really good.  However, smaller tips are given in other locations - gas station attendants, restroom attendants, parking lot attendants, baggers at grocery stores, etc.  I never feel bad about giving tips as the level of informal employment is so high.  At times your tip represents their total salary

[ilikeanswers]

3 hours ago, wowzz said:

Absolutely, especially as just spending 6 hours in a country counts as a tick on the list !

 

If you were trying to get into the Travelers Century Club they would count it 😂. Personally despite what my map says I would only count countries I have at least travelled around and spent at least three days (with the exception of micro countries). On top of that if you really wanted to get technical my count is probably over inflated as they count territories like Puerto Rico and Taiwan as countries😳. In the end it is very subjective😜. 

[ldubs]

4 hours ago, ilikeanswers said:

 

It is not convenient (I wouldn't call it fervour either, you did ask the question I merely answered it😝) except for the fact I happen to live in the country you were asking about😂. I have also had experiences that made me question what I read online like in Mexico I read articles saying the baseline tip was 20% but at one of our AirBnB apartments the owner left an essay about tipping saying that the baseline was really 10%. It also explained why over tipping was becoming a problem for the area and ask us to please respect the local customs. My extra comment about two types of information wasn't a pro or anti tipping comment just advice about how bad information is promulgated. 

 

I did ask a question, which you didn't answer.  It had nothing to do with your country.   Not sure of your seriousness with the emojis.   I agree about bad info on the internet, including forums.  

 

4 hours ago, ilikeanswers said:

 

If you know anything about shame then you understand that it does not need literal consequences, but the implied threat, it is why advertisers use it so often to manipulate us into needing things we don't need😂.

I can't personally answer your first question because I don't live in your country so I conform since I am just a tourist in your country. You asked a question about perception, the difference between mandatory fees and the current DSC and that is my perception, based of talking to people, experiences, things I have read and heard and this thread isn't exactly recalibrating my perceptions either😂. I never claimed I have the "right" answer but that is how to me the tip system seems to work and why I personally would prefer a mandatory fee. 

 

 

Have you ever had poor service but gave the gratuity anyway because you felt shamed?   If I found something that emotionally distressing I would avoid it.   

Edited March 6, 2022 by ldubs

[ilikeanswers]

3 hours ago, ldubs said:

I did ask a question, which you didn't answer.

 

I thought the question was if on P&O tipping 20% was the norm? I did answer that it is not. I am sorry if I missed another question. Sometimes when I get on here there is thirty new posts 😂 so I might miss some. If you would like to tell me what the question was I can see if I know the answer. As for my emojis I just don't want people taking it all too seriously. Some of the posts have gotten incredibly intense and I just want to remind people not take everything personally and that this is just a discussion🤗

 

3 hours ago, ldubs said:

Have you ever had poor service but gave the gratuity anyway because you felt shamed?   If I found something that emotionally distressing I would avoid it.   

 

The only time I received extremely poor service was in a non tipping country and I made a direct complaint to the manager. But I have discussed tips with people and many have told me they would still leave the baseline tip or reduce by only 5% because they don't want to give the impression they are a non tipper. Also I have been told as a foreigner I should never leave nothing because it will just be assumed I am not tipping due to being non American and it leaves a bad impression for other tourists😂 by a person who told me they use to work in the restaurant business. Love to know if anyone can verify if I was getting the truth there or not😬. 

Edited March 6, 2022 by ilikeanswers

[ldubs]

4 minutes ago, ilikeanswers said:

 

I thought the question was if on P&O tipping 20% was the norm? 

 

Not from me. 

 

 

4 minutes ago, ilikeanswers said:

 

The only time I received extremely poor service was in a non tipping country and I made a direct complaint to the manager. But I have discussed tips with people and many have told me they would still leave the baseline tip or reduce by only 5% because they don't want to give the impression they are a non tipper.

 

I wouldn't hesitate to adjust a tip accordingly, including zero for extremely poor service.  It is a very simple judgement call.   I don't care about someone's (whoever that might be) impression.    And of course, extremely poor service should always be shared with a mgr.  

[Peter Lanky]

3 hours ago, ldubs said:

Have you ever had poor service but gave the gratuity anyway because you felt shamed?   If I found something that emotionally distressing I would avoid it.   

From my point of view, I've been in numerous situations at home in the UK where I have declined to pay any 'tip' when in a group not because of bad service, but simply because I don't do tipping. Usually the others in the group, who are often people I know a little but not well, who will question this, and I will explain my reasons, which are usually accepted because the others can't find a good enough reason to reject them. Occasionally I will encounter a 'champion of the underdog' who will give a lecture similar to the ones us non tippers are getting here, but I can live with this.

 

If it is added automatically to the bill when out with a group, I just have to put up with it, but it doesn't mean I like it, but we can't avoid every situation we don't like, or we would never venture out of our homes. However I can recall one occasion where we had bad service, with a waitress literally chucking the menu at us when we asked for it. We (two of us) told her to remove the service charge and explained why, to which she responded that we were the first customers to do this, because 'everybody pays it', and she would be it trouble. We suggested she improved her manner in future.

 

If I am perusing restaurants in the street when dining as a couple, we check the menu in the window and if there is a mandatory service charge we simply move on to one where there isn't.

[Peter Lanky]

9 hours ago, wowzz said:

You are just trying to ignore the experience of everyone here. 

You are so anxious to believe you are right,  you just ignore the real world experiences of everyone else. 

My previous comment for the sake of context:

"Just because you have not been personally pressured does not mean that others have not been. We can't avoid every kind of travel just in case some completely unreasonable consequence arises that we hadn't factored in turns up."

 

On the contrary, it would appear that people are trying to ignore my experiences. I am in no way suggesting that people who say they have had no problems are lying. The inference from some is that they have had no problems, therefore that must be true for everyone. I am not ignoring the other people, but they are clearly dismissing my experiences, so your criticism above is misplaced.

[Peter Lanky]

10 hours ago, wowzz said:

Just a bit of background information. 

In the UK ,back in the day, certain individuals, almost entirely men, would congregate on railway platforms,  and record engine numbers in notebooks.  Why ? Who knows? 

These individuals would always wear anoraks, well before they became accepted (blame Oasis), hence the derogatory term  "anorak" or adjective "anoraky".

Your post is helpful in explaining the term to somebody who may not be aware of it. But why suggest that it is somewhat unnatural rather like keeping a count of countries visited?

 

These 'anoraks', are (they still exist) probably sitting happily drinking tea from their flask and keeping their HB pencils sharp and discussing with their mates, "There is a group of people called 'tippers' who like to give their money away to complete strangers. Why? Who knows?" 

[ilikeanswers]

On 3/4/2022 at 3:57 PM, ldubs said:

I read that with P&O's fixed seating option it is common for folks to leave a tip because the same MDR staff have served them throughout the cruise.   But it is not to be considered obligatory or expected.   

 

1 hour ago, ldubs said:

Not from me. 

 

I went back through the conversation and checked and you are right you didn't ask but I thought I should correct you as the information wasn't quite accurate. Sorry about that for some reason I remembered it was a question😂. So what question did you ask? 

[ilikeanswers]

1 hour ago, ldubs said:

I wouldn't hesitate to adjust a tip accordingly, including zero for extremely poor service.  It is a very simple judgement call.   I don't care about someone's (whoever that might be) impression.    And of course, extremely poor service should always be shared with a mgr.  

 

That is good for you but there does seem to be a good cohort of people who don't feel the same confidence you do. All the more reason in my opinion to just make it a mandatory fee rather than relying on people's emotions. If people choose to tip more than you will still have the performance indicator without asking people to put themselves out there in terms of removing tips. 

Edited March 6, 2022 by ilikeanswers

[iancal]

We have never had bad service on a cruise.   Sometimes slow but this was attributable to cruise line staffing cuts not the server.

 

We have had bad service in a land based restaurant.  We did not tip, nor do we for bad service as distinct from poorly prepared are poor quality food.    

 

But....we tend to vote with our feet and with our wallets.

 

 

Edited March 6, 2022 by iancal

[ldubs]

5 hours ago, ilikeanswers said:

 

That is good for you but there does seem to be a good cohort of people who don't feel the same confidence you do. All the more reason in my opinion to just make it a mandatory fee rather than relying on people's emotions. If people choose to tip more than you will still have the performance indicator without asking people to put themselves out there in terms of removing tips. 

 

I am speaking for the customs in my country.  Like any country there will be outliers and even bad apples if you will.  You conveniently decide to pick and choose what you want to believe.  But it is just a little presumptuous to tell me I am not representative of my country's customs.   

[ldubs]

5 hours ago, ilikeanswers said:

 

 

I went back through the conversation and checked and you are right you didn't ask but I thought I should correct you as the information wasn't quite accurate. Sorry about that for some reason I remembered it was a question😂. So what question did you ask? 

 

Correct me?  I would hope you mean you responded with your disagreeing view.     I've asked  few direct questions.  They are still there.  You have no need to respond.        

[ldubs]

6 hours ago, Peter Lanky said:

From my point of view, I've been in numerous situations at home in the UK where I have declined to pay any 'tip' when in a group not because of bad service, but simply because I don't do tipping. Usually the others in the group, who are often people I know a little but not well, who will question this, and I will explain my reasons, which are usually accepted because the others can't find a good enough reason to reject them. Occasionally I will encounter a 'champion of the underdog' who will give a lecture similar to the ones us non tippers are getting here, but I can live with this.

 

 

Based on your previous comments these experiences must happen mostly in London.  

 

If you were in America and did that sitting with a group of Americans, it would be considered bad manners.  But of course that is because the custom here in America is completely different.  Not a lecture at all.  Just telling you what you should expect if you visit here.  It is your decision to follow the cultural norm or not.  

 

 

  

[ldubs]

16 hours ago, wowzz said:

Just a bit of background information. 

In the UK ,back in the day, certain individuals, almost entirely men, would congregate on railway platforms,  and record engine numbers in notebooks.  Why ? Who knows? 

These individuals would always wear anoraks, well before they became accepted (blame Oasis), hence the derogatory term  "anorak" or adjective "anoraky".

 

I used to pick folks up at our local train station almost weekly.  There was a group of guys doing exactly what you are describing -- writing the time, etc in their notebooks.  Maybe retired railroad workers, IDK.  Train buffs for sure.  

[wowzz]

9 minutes ago, ldubs said:

 

Based on your previous comments these experiences must happen mostly in London.  

 

If you were in America and did that sitting with a group of Americans, it would be considered bad manners.  But of course that is because the custom here in America is completely different.  Not a lecture at all.  Just telling you what you should expect if you visit here.  It is your decision to follow the cultural norm or not.  

 

 

  

To be honest, if someone refused to leave a tip when everyone else chips in,  I wouldn't eat out with that person again.

[KBs mum]

1 minute ago, wowzz said:

To be honest, if someone refused to leave a tip when everyone else chips in,  I wouldn't eat out with that person again.

Depends why they didn't want to tip, perhaps they didn't think the service or food warrented it, or they were on a tight budget. Tipping is not compulsory.

In the UK some tip, some don't. It's not unusual for staff and customer to be on similar wages, so tipping or not tipping is equally OK

[ldubs]

6 minutes ago, wowzz said:

To be honest, if someone refused to leave a tip when everyone else chips in,  I wouldn't eat out with that person again.

 

Thanks for sharing that.  I suspected as much, but was being very careful to not impose my customs on what someone does in their own country.  

[ldubs]

2 minutes ago, KBs mum said:

Depends why they didn't want to tip, perhaps they didn't think the service or food warrented it, or they were on a tight budget. Tipping is not compulsory.

In the UK some tip, some don't. It's not unusual for staff and customer to be on similar wages, so tipping or not tipping is equally OK

 

Just to clarify, the poster was clear that the service was good.  If otherwise, that would be a different story , I agree.   

[Peter Lanky]

13 minutes ago, wowzz said:

To be honest, if someone refused to leave a tip when everyone else chips in,  I wouldn't eat out with that person again.

And that just about sums up what the tipping culture is all about. People having the views of others forced upon them, an element of a voluntary act being compulsory, a lack of respect for somebody with a different opinion and trying to shame somebody doing absolutely nothing wrong.

 

Nothing to do with bad service, but I don't wish to perpetuate something i dont agree with. If the others in the group decide to dance naked on the table in appreciation,  I won't be doing that either. 

Edited March 6, 2022 by Peter Lanky

[Peter Lanky]

34 minutes ago, ldubs said:

 

Based on your previous comments these experiences must happen mostly in London.  

 

If you were in America and did that sitting with a group of Americans, it would be considered bad manners.  But of course that is because the custom here in America is completely different.  Not a lecture at all.  Just telling you what you should expect if you visit here.  It is your decision to follow the cultural norm or not.  

 

 

  

As it happens, that event did happen in London the last time I went there 32 years ago.

 

As a matter of interest if I was socialising with a group of Americans on a non tipping cruise and they wanted to tip somebody (effectively twice) and I declined to join in, how are they likely to react? This would be very useful in the future for me.

[wowzz]

22 minutes ago, KBs mum said:

Depends why they didn't want to tip, perhaps they didn't think the service or food warrented it, or they were on a tight budget. Tipping is not compulsory.

In the UK some tip, some don't. It's not unusual for staff and customer to be on similar wages, so tipping or not tipping is equally OK

Didn't want to tip on a point of principle.