Looking for honest answers (Omicron-related question)

[ldubs]

20 hours ago, slidergirl said:

Rule #1:  People lie

 

You see it at embarkation with the health form - you feel flu-y and maybe a fever but you want to go on the cruise so you lie about how you feel.

 

You see onboard when someone comes down with noro - you don't report it because you want to be able to eat and stuff when you feel better.  

 

Learned at the ski resort, checking lift tickets:  always ask the child, not the parent, how old she is.  The kid won't lie.  But, the parent will say the child is 5 instead of 6 or 7 so they get the free ticket.  

 

Rule #1:   Not all people.  Though, I'm sure in your business you see it all.   

 

I am somewhat saddened that it appears something like 20% of my fellow cruises would put "eating and stuff" ahead of spreading covid on board.  

[ldubs]

5 hours ago, Joebucks said:

 

I'll never forget the initial COVID surge and the panic-buying of food. On the internet, the topic of food is always "feed others". When there was potentially going to be a shortage of food, people would have murdered to get their hands on the last pallet of canned corn.

 

In our area, it was primarily things like flour, rice, sanitizer, and toilet paper.  And after the initial panic, folks that didn't panic had only minor issues getting any of those things.  What I loved was when the big box places and some on-line auctions would not allow people to return or resell those things.  I'm sure some folks have a 5 year supply.  

[slidergirl]

2 hours ago, ldubs said:

 

Rule #1:   Not all people.  Though, I'm sure in your business you see it all.   

 

I am somewhat saddened that it appears something like 20% of my fellow cruises would put "eating and stuff" ahead of spreading covid on board.  

Notice I didn't say "all people."  But, let me tell you, for awhile, there wasn't a week that went by at work where someone didn't try to lie.  Fortunately, where I'm at now, it's not as often.  But, when someone tries, it's usually a whopper 😉

 

The percentage that thinks "eating and stuff" is more important than trying to not spread COVID is not all together surprising.  It probably is based on where the respondent lives and their COVID behavior was/is.   I would get people from certain states where they didn't care about procedures to try to keep COVID at bay - they'd gripe at me (and lie) about masks.  Would fully expect the same on a ship.  

[slidergirl]

2 hours ago, ldubs said:

 

In our area, it was primarily things like flour, rice, sanitizer, and toilet paper.  And after the initial panic, folks that didn't panic had only minor issues getting any of those things.  What I loved was when the big box places and some on-line auctions would not allow people to return or resell those things.  I'm sure some folks have a 5 year supply.  

We had the usual stuff in the panic-buy.  I wasn't too worried about TP - I "acquired" some from my condos - we had 2 huge boxes.  If I couldn't find any at the store, I'd grab a roll.   No sanitizer?  Soap & water and my big bottle of Pine Sol kept me going.   

[Joebucks]

17 hours ago, ldubs said:

I think perhaps people are missing the point.  It isn't if one can take care of themselves like you did with the fractured ribs.  The issue is spreading it to others and potentially causing an outbreak on board.  

 

I think it's pretty safe to say there have been plenty of people onboard who have lied. There's a good chance nearly every cruise ship has sick people on it at the moment. Where are all of these "outbreaks?" Or is it just drawing up more hypotheticals to shame people into COVID submission? 

 

If I had to guess, the average person with sniffles isn't overly thrilled to have themselves locked in a room on vacation while believing they are not going to kill everyone one board. Is it selfish? Probably. Let's be real though how people act when backed into a corner

[ldubs]

2 hours ago, Joebucks said:

 

 

I think it's pretty safe to say there have been plenty of people onboard who have lied. There's a good chance nearly every cruise ship has sick people on it at the moment. Where are all of these "outbreaks?"

 

 

Sadly, I agree with you.  According to this thread 20% to 30% feel lying and potentially exposing others is OK.  I'm guessing the vaccine requirement has a lot to do with controlling outbreaks.    

 

You know, I think there could be a point made that covid is becoming endemic and should be treated like the flu.   Some countries already do that.  But that is a decision to be made by public health.  Not by individuals.   Even with that, those same "everyone does it" people would be  OK exposing everyone to NORO because it is their vacation and they need to enjoy it.  

 

2 hours ago, Joebucks said:

Or is it just drawing up more hypotheticals to shame people into COVID submission? 

 

I don't know what is meant by hypotheticals or shaming people.   I assume by covid submission you mean following the guidelines when covid+.   

 

2 hours ago, Joebucks said:

 

If I had to guess, the average person with sniffles isn't overly thrilled to have themselves locked in a room on vacation while believing they are not going to kill everyone one board. Is it selfish? Probably. Let's be real though how people act when backed into a corner

 

Let's not be overly dramatic.  No one claims everyone on board is going to be killed and the average person with sniffles is not locked down in a room.  We are talking about infectious covid+.   No one wants to be quarantined, but that is what we signed up for.  People can come up with all the excuses they want, but you will not find one fellow passenger that is going to be OK with someone knowingly exposing them.

 

I am not sure exactly what point you are arguing.  That there are dishonest people?  Sure we all agree.  That you should be able to hide the fact you are covid positive and will expose others?  I hope not.     

 

[slidergirl]

3 hours ago, Joebucks said:

 

I think it's pretty safe to say there have been plenty of people onboard who have lied. There's a good chance nearly every cruise ship has sick people on it at the moment. Where are all of these "outbreaks?" Or is it just drawing up more hypotheticals to shame people into COVID submission? 

 

If I had to guess, the average person with sniffles isn't overly thrilled to have themselves locked in a room on vacation while believing they are not going to kill everyone one board. Is it selfish? Probably. Let's be real though how people act when backed into a corner

The "outbreaks" are on the European river cruises right now.  A couple of our CCers have talked about it, and 2 tested positive "with only sniffles.  They are currently quarantining in a hotel in Amsterdam. 

[Ride-The-Waves]

Just returned state-side from a trans-Atlantic.  In theory, since everyone had to have a negative test on embarkation, COVID came on board at a port stop.  Two days prior to arriving in Southampton, the ship offered COVID testing to those flying home to the US day of arrival.  Ninety-four people tested positive.  Likely most were aware they had some form of COVID prior to the test.  Not everyone returning to the US tested on board; some waited to be tested at the airport and thus not included in the 94.  Interestingly, up until the testing the wearing masks was optional and many did not.  Immediately following on board testing the ship protocol became "mask required" in all venues, inside and out.  My wife and I did not test on board as the UK stopped requiring a negative test for entry/overnight stay.  We did test negative 5 days later for our return flight across the Pond.  Say even 500 people tested onboard, that is about a 20 percent positive rate for COVID.  Again, in theory starting from 0 on embarkation.  Not good.  And, consistent with the theme of this thread, that is a relatively high number testing positive who were only discovered by ship's testing, not self testing and not voluntarily seeking testing at ship's medical.  Argh!

[jcl410]

On the QM2 from Southampton to New York in Feb., every one had to  test negative prior to boarding... Every one also had tests on day 4 and 7.... On each day, there were multiple announcements for people to go back to their cabins and THEN call the purser's office.

 

My assumption is that those folks had an infection prior to boarding, but the vital load was too low to be detected by the PCR test at the pier.

 

Aloha,

 

John

 

 

[CruisinShips]

14 hours ago, Ride-The-Waves said:

Just returned state-side from a trans-Atlantic.  In theory, since everyone had to have a negative test on embarkation, COVID came on board at a port stop.  Two days prior to arriving in Southampton, the ship offered COVID testing to those flying home to the US day of arrival.  Ninety-four people tested positive.  Likely most were aware they had some form of COVID prior to the test.  Not everyone returning to the US tested on board; some waited to be tested at the airport and thus not included in the 94.  Interestingly, up until the testing the wearing masks was optional and many did not.  Immediately following on board testing the ship protocol became "mask required" in all venues, inside and out.  My wife and I did not test on board as the UK stopped requiring a negative test for entry/overnight stay.  We did test negative 5 days later for our return flight across the Pond.  Say even 500 people tested onboard, that is about a 20 percent positive rate for COVID.  Again, in theory starting from 0 on embarkation.  Not good.  And, consistent with the theme of this thread, that is a relatively high number testing positive who were only discovered by ship's testing, not self testing and not voluntarily seeking testing at ship's medical.  Argh!

The thing is MANY people, mainly vaxxed and boosted, can and do test positive with zero symptoms.  Further, I think it's become clear that anyone who chooses to cruise is doing so with the full knowledge and understanding they they are exposing themselves to a greater chance of testing positive for Covid than they would on other types of vacations.   I know everyone points to mask wearing and quarantining as the answer to their risk fears, but masks aren't foolproof, and people are regularly asymptomatic.  

 

I dined in a restaurant Saturday night and watched a woman wear her mask at her table the entire time she was there, until her food came.  Then she took it off.  If she was exposed to someone with covid, she wouldn't be protected at that point.

 

Point is, we know the risks...and if you are that worried at this point as a boosted individual about getting Omicron, then find another way to vacation IMO.

[sparks1093]

21 hours ago, CruisinShips said:

The thing is MANY people, mainly vaxxed and boosted, can and do test positive with zero symptoms.  Further, I think it's become clear that anyone who chooses to cruise is doing so with the full knowledge and understanding they they are exposing themselves to a greater chance of testing positive for Covid than they would on other types of vacations.   I know everyone points to mask wearing and quarantining as the answer to their risk fears, but masks aren't foolproof, and people are regularly asymptomatic.  

 

I dined in a restaurant Saturday night and watched a woman wear her mask at her table the entire time she was there, until her food came.  Then she took it off.  If she was exposed to someone with covid, she wouldn't be protected at that point.

 

Point is, we know the risks...and if you are that worried at this point as a boosted individual about getting Omicron, then find another way to vacation IMO.

I don't think that the chance is really any greater, and one could say that until now it has actually been safer since everyone who is boarding needs to be fully vaccinated and have a negative test. In any event since I am fully vaccinated I have gone about my life as I did pre-COVID. I did end up getting it, but it was mild and recovery was quick. (I didn't get it on either of the two cruises that I've taken.) 

[CruisinShips]

5 hours ago, sparks1093 said:

I don't think that the chance is really any greater, and one could say that until now it has actually been safer since everyone who is boarding needs to be fully vaccinated and have a negative test. In any event since I am fully vaccinated I have gone about my life as I did pre-COVID. I did end up getting it, but it was mild and recovery was quick. (I didn't get it on either of the two cruises that I've taken.) 

I love cruising as much as anyone, and I will continue to cruise, but norovirus and covid have shown us that cruising is a relatively risky means of travel from a transmissible virus standpoint.  The weakness in the whole thing has seemed to be about the ports. 

 

That said, my point was simply that depending on others to wear masks in many situations has proven over time to be more of a performative thing that provides us with a sense of safety that may be exaggerated.  Wherever we go,  we see the crappy cloth masks, the loose fitting masks, the masks under the nose, and the removal to eat and drink.   How safe can that really be?

Edited April 19, 2022 by CruisinShips

[6rugrats]

I have worked as a contact tracer for almost two years now.  I wish I had a dollar for every time someone who tested positive with a PCR test told me, "but it was only allergies" or, "I just had a sinus infection, it can't be COVID."  The only thing I can tell you for sure is that people lie and the number of cases is currently vastly undercounted because people are testing themselves at home and not notifying their local department of health.  Are they isolating as required and notifying their contacts? I'd like to think so, but suspect many are not.   It has been a great job but sometimes tremendously discouraging.  There are wonderful people, but an awful lot of "it's all about me" out there.  I know two people who died from COVID because they refused to mask and get vaccinated.  Do I think people would test that have symptoms?  Not everyone.

[sfaaa]

5 hours ago, CruisinShips said:

  we see the crappy cloth masks, the loose fitting masks, the masks under the nose, and the removal to eat and drink.   How safe can that really be?

Relatively safe if you are wearing N95 to protect yourself.

[Nebr.cruiser]

18 hours ago, 6rugrats said:

I have worked as a contact tracer for almost two years now.  I wish I had a dollar for every time someone who tested positive with a PCR test told me, "but it was only allergies" or, "I just had a sinus infection, it can't be COVID."  The only thing I can tell you for sure is that people lie and the number of cases is currently vastly undercounted because people are testing themselves at home and not notifying their local department of health.  Are they isolating as required and notifying their contacts? I'd like to think so, but suspect many are not.   It has been a great job but sometimes tremendously discouraging.  There are wonderful people, but an awful lot of "it's all about me" out there.  I know two people who died from COVID because they refused to mask and get vaccinated.  Do I think people would test that have symptoms?  Not everyone.

I understand that your work must have been very eye-opening and agonizing at the same time.  People are often liable to downplay, or outright lie about conditions, or sometimes manage to fool themselves.

 

But, I am one of those people who truly suffer, daily really, from allergies and sinus problems, including several sinus infections a year.  I am not exaggerating when I say that I might have to test, if not daily, at least weekly, if I went by the symptoms commonly listed.

 

So I really don't know what I could do when questioned about symptoms.  I had Covid two years ago:  exactly like sinus infection (and not a really bad one) except for a slight fever the first two days.  I'm vaccinated and boosted.

 

I have had 4 plus years of allergy shots, sinus surgery and take three allergy meds per day, plus some OTC meds as needed.  Usually my symptoms are there, but manageable; at other times they get out of control.  So either I ignore my daily symptoms or, I guess, never go anywhere.

Edited April 20, 2022 by Nebr.cruiser

[ldubs]

On 4/20/2022 at 7:02 AM, Nebr.cruiser said:

I understand that your work must have been very eye-opening and agonizing at the same time.  People are often liable to downplay, or outright lie about conditions, or sometimes manage to fool themselves.

 

But, I am one of those people who truly suffer, daily really, from allergies and sinus problems, including several sinus infections a year.  I am not exaggerating when I say that I might have to test, if not daily, at least weekly, if I went by the symptoms commonly listed.

 

So I really don't know what I could do when questioned about symptoms.  I had Covid two years ago:  exactly like sinus infection (and not a really bad one) except for a slight fever the first two days.  I'm vaccinated and boosted.

 

I have had 4 plus years of allergy shots, sinus surgery and take three allergy meds per day, plus some OTC meds as needed.  Usually my symptoms are there, but manageable; at other times they get out of control.  So either I ignore my daily symptoms or, I guess, never go anywhere.

 

Maybe just do home tests on a weekly basis.  That is what we do and we don't have allergies or sinus problems.