Carnival Horizon - A/C Issues

[ALKID]

6 hours ago, pc_load_letter said:

 

HVAC systems rely on being a closed system. Doors constantly opening can create positive and negative air pressure which adversely effects cooling. Try running your ac with all your doors open and see how well it works. 

No, they are trying to save money or there is a problem.  If it was because of the doors, all the cruise ships would be like that, and they definitely are not!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[AmazedByCruising]

59 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

This is the system that does the "AC" on the ship, they circulate 50*F fresh water around the ship to cool the air, not refrigerant like in your home. 

 

Hi Chief,

 

A related question, why cool the water on the ship when there's water at 39*F available 200 meters below the ship? (according to Google). Why not just throw out a hose and pump cold water up, and exchange the heat with the water in the "AC", instead of using (I guess) much more fuel to cool warm water down to 50*F?

 

[d9704011]

9 minutes ago, AmazedByCruising said:

 

Hi Chief,

 

A related question, why cool the water on the ship when there's water at 39*F available 200 meters below the ship? (according to Google). Why not just throw out a hose and pump cold water up, and exchange the heat with the water in the "AC", instead of using (I guess) much more fuel to cool warm water down to 50*F?

 

With the ship moving at 18 knots or so and the diameter of hose required to suck up enough cold water they'd have to weigh the end down with one of the ship's anchors and that produces too much drag.

[AmazedByCruising]

Just now, d9704011 said:

With the ship moving at 18 knots or so and the diameter of hose required to suck up enough cold water they'd have to weigh the end down with one of the ship's anchors and that produces too much drag.

 

Not sure if the extra fuel for the drag is more than what it costs to cool water from let's say 70*F down to 50*F. 

 

I think it would depend on the itinerary. You don't need to suck up cold water all the time, but at the times you can, because the ship isn't moving and the sea is deep enough, why not? 

 

A possible good time to harvest cheap cold water is when the ship uses tenders anyway at a private island. 

[Colorado Beach Bum]

3 hours ago, gazingm42 said:

Does anyone know if a note has been dropped to John Heald to look into this?

We put this complaint in our post cruise survey. 

[BlerkOne]

3 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

This problem has nothing to do with the design of the HVAC system, nothing to do with doors being opened, nor with any "reported" cut back in AC "to save fuel". 

 

I don't know that it does, but it certainly could.

 

On embarkation day the doors are wide open for hours while people are boarding. I've noticed on several cruises the lobby is warmer than it should be and for a deck or two. The next day temps are back to normal.

 

 

[Illbcruzn4life]

5 minutes ago, BlerkOne said:

I don't know that it does, but it certainly could.

 

On embarkation day the doors are wide open for hours while people are boarding. I've noticed on several cruises the lobby is warmer than it should be and for a deck or two. The next day temps are back to normal.

 

 

That has been my experience as well on embarkation days as well but as you said the next day it’s back to normal unlike what is happening on the Horizon.

 

[Tnlynch81]

5 hours ago, gazingm42 said:

Does anyone know if a note has been dropped to John Heald to look into this?

The AC issue on the Horizon has been going on a LONG time. I was on her in June 2019 and I remember sweating like a pig in the MDR. I have seen several comments to John Heald and he always has denied any issues in his responses.

[BlerkOne]

19 minutes ago, Tnlynch81 said:

The AC issue on the Horizon has been going on a LONG time. I was on her in June 2019 and I remember sweating like a pig in the MDR. I have seen several comments to John Heald and he always has denied any issues in his responses.

WE were on Horizon in July of last year and there were no such problems.

[Tnlynch81]

9 minutes ago, BlerkOne said:

WE were on Horizon in July of last year and there were no such problems.

I think there is too much smoke regarding the Horizon AC issue for their not to be a fire. In all fairness I have only been on her one time.

Edited August 4, 2022 by Tnlynch81

[BlerkOne]

23 minutes ago, Tnlynch81 said:

I think there is too much smoke regarding the Horizon AC issue for their not to be a fire. In all fairness I have only been on her one time.

There may be something going on now, but I am unaware of a history of issues. I do know some people will say public areas are always warm and others say they are cold. There isn't one temperature that will please everyone 

[Illbcruzn4life]

i was on her in April.     No issues then that I noticed.

[chengkp75]

9 hours ago, AmazedByCruising said:

 

Hi Chief,

 

A related question, why cool the water on the ship when there's water at 39*F available 200 meters below the ship? (according to Google). Why not just throw out a hose and pump cold water up, and exchange the heat with the water in the "AC", instead of using (I guess) much more fuel to cool warm water down to 50*F?

 

My God, you come up with some ideas.

 

1.  The chilled water does not reach 70*F when it returns to the chiller.  It is about 55*F, which is the beauty of a closed system, you can move enough water that the delta temperature never gets too high.  Remember, the air supplied (either through the fresh air coolers, or the cabin coolers, is not 70*F, it is colder than that, in order to cool the room down, so if the supplied air is not 70*, the chilled water isn't.

 

2.  Where is this 200 meter hose stored when the ship is in less than 200 meters of water? Is it rolled up on a drum?  Where is this drum?  Under the ship?  In a tunnel in the bottom of the ship?  How much drag is that?  Or is it brought back into the ship to a reel through some sort of seal, that is capable of sealing around the hose, but is also capable of passing the required flanges (because a bolted flange would be the only safe method of joining hose of that size, and that length, under that stress)?

 

3.  When the ship is in shallow water, and there is no cold water to pump up, how does the AC work?

 

4.  The refrigeration cycle uses evaporation and condensing of a refrigerant to cool the chilled water, and since there is always some "latent heat of evaporation" when a substance changes from liquid to gas (evaporation) (latent heat of evaporation is the amount of heat needed to change an amount of refrigerant (or water) from liquid to vapor without changing its temperature), the heat that is absorbed from the chilled water by a ton of refrigerant flashing from liquid to gas is far more than what a simple water/water heat exchange by one ton of cold sea water could do.

 

5.  What size hose were you envisioning?  Cause it would need to be a 16" diameter hose, at a minimum, and 200 meters long?  Your talking about 7-8 tons of just the hose, plus the water inside it, since you're dragging that along with you, which would be around another 25 tons.

 

While geothermal heating and cooling is efficient on land (it ain't moving), it is again a closed system, unlike your idea of an open system taking cold water and discharging it after it has cooled the chill water.  Any closed system is more efficient than an open system.

[tattoos]

We sailed on the Horizon in May 2022 and had the same experience.  We went to JiJi's for lunch one day and the wait line flowed down the hall and into the elevator area and it was hot.  By the time we were seated for lunch, sweat was pouring down my face.  We thought it might have been a fluke so went the next day for lunch at Cucina del Capitano which is across the hall from JiJi's and it was hot in there also.

 

If we walked through the Lido Marketplace area from the mid-ship doors near Blue Iguana to the aft pool area, you could feel the temperature change halfway to the aft buffet area and it was hot back there.  Also the Ocean Plaza area was uncomfortably warm and so was the Havana Bar area.  The casino was always very warm and I kept moving from machine to machine until I found a cooler area.

 

Our stateroom was always cold and would become our refuge on this cruise.  I spent more time in my room when showering or changing clothes than on any other cruise I have been on.  We're sailing on the Horizon again in November and don't really expect the problem to be fixed by then.  It seems like an ongoing problem if people are still experiencing the warm temperatures in the interior venues.

[vwrestler171]

17 hours ago, gazingm42 said:

Does anyone know if a note has been dropped to John Heald to look into this?

Not enough people are, because he keep's saying that there is no issues.

[activeac1968]

9 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

My God, you come up with some ideas.

 

1.  The chilled water does not reach 70*F when it returns to the chiller.  It is about 55*F, which is the beauty of a closed system, you can move enough water that the delta temperature never gets too high.  Remember, the air supplied (either through the fresh air coolers, or the cabin coolers, is not 70*F, it is colder than that, in order to cool the room down, so if the supplied air is not 70*, the chilled water isn't.

 

2.  Where is this 200 meter hose stored when the ship is in less than 200 meters of water? Is it rolled up on a drum?  Where is this drum?  Under the ship?  In a tunnel in the bottom of the ship?  How much drag is that?  Or is it brought back into the ship to a reel through some sort of seal, that is capable of sealing around the hose, but is also capable of passing the required flanges (because a bolted flange would be the only safe method of joining hose of that size, and that length, under that stress)?

 

3.  When the ship is in shallow water, and there is no cold water to pump up, how does the AC work?

 

4.  The refrigeration cycle uses evaporation and condensing of a refrigerant to cool the chilled water, and since there is always some "latent heat of evaporation" when a substance changes from liquid to gas (evaporation) (latent heat of evaporation is the amount of heat needed to change an amount of refrigerant (or water) from liquid to vapor without changing its temperature), the heat that is absorbed from the chilled water by a ton of refrigerant flashing from liquid to gas is far more than what a simple water/water heat exchange by one ton of cold sea water could do.

 

5.  What size hose were you envisioning?  Cause it would need to be a 16" diameter hose, at a minimum, and 200 meters long?  Your talking about 7-8 tons of just the hose, plus the water inside it, since you're dragging that along with you, which would be around another 25 tons.

 

While geothermal heating and cooling is efficient on land (it ain't moving), it is again a closed system, unlike your idea of an open system taking cold water and discharging it after it has cooled the chill water.  Any closed system is more efficient than an open system.

You are just THE BEST!

[Indytraveler83]

Not to discount anyone's experiences, but I feel like this comes up a lot with various ships.  A couple of thoughts:

 

1) How the temperature feels can be relative.  If an area is 75 degrees, and you just came in front sitting in the sun, it may feel downright cold.  On the other hand, if you just came back from a nap in your interior cabin with the AC on full blast, it might feel rather muggy.  

 

2) Heat outside, doors and windows can play a huge role in things as previously mentioned.  If a line of people move through a doorway, and hot air blasts in, it's going to take time before that area cools.  If this happens a lot in a high traffic area, they may struggle to cool it.  While Horizon's sister ships are similar, they all have their own floorplan tweaks.  There may be a door that's always opening on Horizon, that isn't on Vista.

 

3) If there is a problem, it may not be the AC.  A failing window seal, or even an automated door that's getting stuck open or leaking excessive air can cause issues.  A large window that doesn't properly reduce the sun's heat can also cause part of the ship to bake.  

 

4) Where is the Horizon when this happens?  She's been running a Southern Caribbean route that can be absolutely scorching in the summer.  Little things or open doors may play a much bigger factor there then on ships further north.

 

Again, not trying to discount anyone's experiences here.  But it's entirely possible that the AC is functioning perfect and other factors, possibly not fully in Carnival's control could be at play.  

[BlerkOne]

12 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

My God, you come up with some ideas.

 

1.  The chilled water does not reach 70*F when it returns to the chiller.  It is about 55*F, which is the beauty of a closed system, you can move enough water that the delta temperature never gets too high.  Remember, the air supplied (either through the fresh air coolers, or the cabin coolers, is not 70*F, it is colder than that, in order to cool the room down, so if the supplied air is not 70*, the chilled water isn't.

 

2.  Where is this 200 meter hose stored when the ship is in less than 200 meters of water? Is it rolled up on a drum?  Where is this drum?  Under the ship?  In a tunnel in the bottom of the ship?  How much drag is that?  Or is it brought back into the ship to a reel through some sort of seal, that is capable of sealing around the hose, but is also capable of passing the required flanges (because a bolted flange would be the only safe method of joining hose of that size, and that length, under that stress)?

 

3.  When the ship is in shallow water, and there is no cold water to pump up, how does the AC work?

 

4.  The refrigeration cycle uses evaporation and condensing of a refrigerant to cool the chilled water, and since there is always some "latent heat of evaporation" when a substance changes from liquid to gas (evaporation) (latent heat of evaporation is the amount of heat needed to change an amount of refrigerant (or water) from liquid to vapor without changing its temperature), the heat that is absorbed from the chilled water by a ton of refrigerant flashing from liquid to gas is far more than what a simple water/water heat exchange by one ton of cold sea water could do.

 

5.  What size hose were you envisioning?  Cause it would need to be a 16" diameter hose, at a minimum, and 200 meters long?  Your talking about 7-8 tons of just the hose, plus the water inside it, since you're dragging that along with you, which would be around another 25 tons.

 

While geothermal heating and cooling is efficient on land (it ain't moving), it is again a closed system, unlike your idea of an open system taking cold water and discharging it after it has cooled the chill water.  Any closed system is more efficient than an open system.

What would the pressure drop be in that 200 meter 16" hose be and how much marine life could it suck up?

[AmazedByCruising]

12 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

My God, you come up with some ideas.

 

I know 🙂 But now we all know more, thank you again! And yes, dumb idea.

[Colorado Beach Bum]

3 hours ago, Indytraveler83 said:

Not to discount anyone's experiences, but I feel like this comes up a lot with various ships.  A couple of thoughts:

 

1) How the temperature feels can be relative.  If an area is 75 degrees, and you just came in front sitting in the sun, it may feel downright cold.  On the other hand, if you just came back from a nap in your interior cabin with the AC on full blast, it might feel rather muggy.  

 

2) Heat outside, doors and windows can play a huge role in things as previously mentioned.  If a line of people move through a doorway, and hot air blasts in, it's going to take time before that area cools.  If this happens a lot in a high traffic area, they may struggle to cool it.  While Horizon's sister ships are similar, they all have their own floorplan tweaks.  There may be a door that's always opening on Horizon, that isn't on Vista.

 

3) If there is a problem, it may not be the AC.  A failing window seal, or even an automated door that's getting stuck open or leaking excessive air can cause issues.  A large window that doesn't properly reduce the sun's heat can also cause part of the ship to bake.  

 

4) Where is the Horizon when this happens?  She's been running a Southern Caribbean route that can be absolutely scorching in the summer.  Little things or open doors may play a much bigger factor there then on ships further north.

 

Again, not trying to discount anyone's experiences here.  But it's entirely possible that the AC is functioning perfect and other factors, possibly not fully in Carnival's control could be at play.  

And not to discount your possible reasons but this ship is HOT. We’ve been on 30+ cruises and have never experienced the temperature issues that this ship has. 

[tattoos]

I'm with you, Colorado Beach Bum, I am Diamond on Carnival and have sailed on almost every ship in the fleet numerous times and have never experienced air conditioning problems like I did on the Horizon.  I have had staterooms where maintaining a cold temperature was not possible but never in the interior common areas of the ship.  It seemed that the mid-ship and aft sections were the warmest areas.  Our family members had staterooms in the forward section of the ship on different floors and they said that their staterooms were nice and cold.

[AmazedByCruising]

On 8/4/2022 at 12:27 PM, chengkp75 said:

While geothermal heating and cooling is efficient on land (it ain't moving), it is again a closed system, unlike your idea of an open system taking cold water and discharging it after it has cooled the chill water.  Any closed system is more efficient than an open system.

 

Sorry to return to the subject. Changed the idea a bit: comparable to ships taking in electricity and water from shore in some ports, could it be possible to transfer "coldness" to the ship which was generated on land? For instance, Half Moon Cay or Miami could have a system using deep sea water that is much more efficient than burning fuel. Instead of water or electricity, the ship gets a liquid refrigerant and the gas version is returned to the cooling station. 

 

Burning so much fuel to keep a gigantic ship nice and cool seems such a waste when there's cold water nearby. 

[ALKID]

2 minutes ago, AmazedByCruising said:

 

Sorry to return to the subject. Changed the idea a bit: comparable to ships taking in electricity and water from shore in some ports, could it be possible to transfer "coldness" to the ship which was generated on land? For instance, Half Moon Cay or Miami could have a system using deep sea water that is much more efficient than burning fuel. Instead of water or electricity, the ship gets a liquid refrigerant and the gas version is returned to the cooling station. 

 

Burning so much fuel to keep a gigantic ship nice and cool seems such a waste when there's cold water nearby. 

Perhaps because the dollar tree of the sea cant even get the existing system working properly.

[BlerkOne]

18 minutes ago, AmazedByCruising said:

 

Sorry to return to the subject. Changed the idea a bit: comparable to ships taking in electricity and water from shore in some ports, could it be possible to transfer "coldness" to the ship which was generated on land? For instance, Half Moon Cay or Miami could have a system using deep sea water that is much more efficient than burning fuel. Instead of water or electricity, the ship gets a liquid refrigerant and the gas version is returned to the cooling station. 

 

Burning so much fuel to keep a gigantic ship nice and cool seems such a waste when there's cold water nearby. 

If they would just keep some of the hot air off of the ship the temps would drop.

[chengkp75]

13 minutes ago, AmazedByCruising said:

For instance, Half Moon Cay or Miami could have a system using deep sea water that is much more efficient than burning fuel. Instead of water or electricity, the ship gets a liquid refrigerant and the gas version is returned to the cooling station. 

So, where does Miami get the power to run the pumps that pump the geothermal water around the system (and that is not deep sea water, but water circulated to the deep ground, which is cooler), if there is no fuel burned?  Where is the liquid refrigerant stored?  How much is needed to keep the ship cool if you are not recirculating the refrigerant, but only using it once?  Even better, where is the gaseous refrigerant stored?  That would likely take the entire volume of the ship.  How long would it take to pump this refrigerant on and off the ship.  Then the liquid refrigerant needs to be compressed, so that it can absorb more heat when it flashes to gas, and where does this power come from?  You are merely taking a refrigerant system that is self-contained on the ship, that uses sea water to condense the refrigerant, with one that is split between the ship and shore that uses geothermal cooling to condense the refrigerant, with all the attendant losses in efficiency in storing cooling agent and pumping from ship to shore and back.  Geothermal heating/cooling (which I think is not common in Europe), uses water that is pumped down a hole in the ground, where it is cooled off by the earth (to about 50*F at 20 feet down or more), and then pumped to the cooling/heating coil for the house to directly cool the air, without any refrigeration system (and its attendant compressor, etc).   That is what is efficient, is simply using the earth to cool/heat the water, over a refrigeration system, and this would not be possible on a ship.