Rogue Wave Hits Viking Ship

[janetcbl]

1 hour ago, Heidi13 said:

 

The marine industry has implemented changes to safety standards from the learnings of numerous incidents. The learnings are included in SOLAS, Classification Society rules, etc which govern to design.

 

Therefore, if any changes are warranted, it will apply to all future vessels and based on any grandfathering, to existing vessels probably at the next, or future special survey.

Thank you for your information. You seem to be one of the few people who knows what he is talking about and I appreciate your insights.

[Heartgrove]

The circumstatnces of the accident are just that - accidental, and I will probably be beaten up with my response. But I think that it is interesting comparing simple design differences between two companies on their take for expedition-type ships: Hurtigruten vs. Viking Ocean. On paper Hurtigruten has more experience with this type of cruising having sailed the Fram in expedition cruising since 2006.

 

The Hurtigruten ships (Roald Amundsen and Fridtjof Nansen) have the same Polar classification, PC6,  as the Viking ships. But are shorter in length (459' vs. 665') than their Viking counterparts. They both have the same published beam width of 77'. The two classes each have their own engineering designs to meet their company's marketing goals. 

 

Both have windows in the hull (as opposed to portholes on the Viking expedition ships which are used on Deck 1 and Deck A except where the two restaurants are located amidships having windows) but differ in their execution. Hurtigruten uses a smaller fixed pane for those lower openings on Deck 4 and Deck 5 where Viking has a larger pair of glass panes with one that is movable on Deck 1. A smaller fixed window would be inherently stronger.

 

I haven't sailed in the Antarctic region but have sailed in the Great Lakes when in the Coast Guard. The Great Lakes can be as rough if not rougher due to the shallower water causing more frequent but as tall swells. It is estimated that there have been 6,000 to 10,000 ships sunk in the Great Lakes. After this incident, I question sailing with Viking on the Great Lakes.

[Twitchly]

Heh. Never underestimate the Great Lakes.

 

[LindaS272]

“Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald.”

[Heidi13]

44 minutes ago, Heartgrove said:

The circumstatnces of the accident are just that - accidental, and I will probably be beaten up with my response. But I think that it is interesting comparing simple design differences between two companies on their take for expedition-type ships: Hurtigruten vs. Viking Ocean. On paper Hurtigruten has more experience with this type of cruising having sailed the Fram in expedition cruising since 2006.

 

The Hurtigruten ships (Roald Amundsen and Fridtjof Nansen) have the same Polar classification, PC6,  as the Viking ships. But are shorter in length (459' vs. 665') than their Viking counterparts. They both have the same published beam width of 77'. The two classes each have their own engineering designs to meet their company's marketing goals. 

 

Both have windows in the hull (as opposed to portholes on the Viking expedition ships which are used on Deck 1 and Deck A except where the two restaurants are located amidships having windows) but differ in their execution. Hurtigruten uses a smaller fixed pane for those lower openings on Deck 4 and Deck 5 where Viking has a larger pair of glass panes with one that is movable on Deck 1. A smaller fixed window would be inherently stronger.

 

I haven't sailed in the Antarctic region but have sailed in the Great Lakes when in the Coast Guard. The Great Lakes can be as rough if not rougher due to the shallower water causing more frequent but as tall swells. It is estimated that there have been 6,000 to 10,000 ships sunk in the Great Lakes. After this incident, I question sailing with Viking on the Great Lakes.

 

Just to clarify regarding the Deck numbers as by indicating Dk 4 & 5 on the Hurtigruten ships, some could assume those are higher decks than the Viking ships.

 

When comparing facilities on ships, by deck number, you first need to identify the owner's deck numbering convention. Most ships start with Deck 1 at the E/R plates or tank top, which is the lowest point. The decks are then numbered consecutively up from the tank top.

 

On most ships, the Uppermost Continuous Deck (UCD) is around Deck 4. Below the UCD are hydraulic water-tight doors, which are not acceptable for passenger spaces, as you must be trained to be in spaces with these doors. Therefore, all pax spaces are on or above the UCD.

 

Viking uses a different numbering standard, with the UCD, being Deck A and Deck 1 is the lowest deck for passengers. On Viking, Deck A is the location of the Medical Centre and is the crew deck with the bow to stern M1/I95. This is consistent on Ocean & Expedition ships

 

Therefore, Deck 4 and 5 on Hurtigruten could be about the same height above the water line as Deck 1 and 2 on Viking.

 

With respect to windows v's portholes, this is the ship owner providing what the average passenger is looking for on a cruise. Seen numerous complaints from pax on older ships with portholes. Will this incident change pax expectations - possibly, but the sad fact it only lasts for a brief period. A classic example is the Costa Concordia, with most pax taking the Muster Drill seriously after the incident, but memories have faded and most are again complaining about the Musters.

[Heidi13]

1 hour ago, janetcbl said:

Thank you for your information. You seem to be one of the few people who knows what he is talking about and I appreciate your insights.

 

Thanks, may I suggest that the Chief has also provide excellent information, as he is also a very experienced professional mariner.

[longterm]

1 hour ago, Mittens101 said:

Back from a cruise two weeks ago. We both came home with Covid. Hadn’t gotten it since the beginning. Go on one cruise and got the beast. That in itself is making me question cruising. 

Not just cruising. We took 2 Viking cruises early this year (Caribbean and from Rome to Athens), and didn't get Covid; then in May, we did a Rick Steves tour from Paris to Nice, and out of 25 people, 8 of us made it to Nice without having either gotten Covid or rooming with someone who did. And this was with masking on the bus every day and in most of the sites.

How does this have any relevance to the rogue wave event? When you leave your door, to go to the grocery, go on a cruise, go on a tour, you never know what you might encounter. Is the reward worth the risk? 

For us, it's been worth it, even with the calamities on our France trip.
 

Edited December 3, 2022 by longterm

[Heartgrove]

1 hour ago, Heidi13 said:

 

Just to clarify regarding the Deck numbers as by indicating Dk 4 & 5 on the Hurtigruten ships, some could assume those are higher decks than the Viking ships.

 

When comparing facilities on ships, by deck number, you first need to identify the owner's deck numbering convention. Most ships start with Deck 1 at the E/R plates or tank top, which is the lowest point. The decks are then numbered consecutively up from the tank top.

 

On most ships, the Uppermost Continuous Deck (UCD) is around Deck 4. Below the UCD are hydraulic water-tight doors, which are not acceptable for passenger spaces, as you must be trained to be in spaces with these doors. Therefore, all pax spaces are on or above the UCD.

 

Viking uses a different numbering standard, with the UCD, being Deck A and Deck 1 is the lowest deck for passengers. On Viking, Deck A is the location of the Medical Centre and is the crew deck with the bow to stern M1/I95. This is consistent on Ocean & Expedition ships

 

Therefore, Deck 4 and 5 on Hurtigruten could be about the same height above the water line as Deck 1 and 2 on Viking.

 

With respect to windows v's portholes, this is the ship owner providing what the average passenger is looking for on a cruise. Seen numerous complaints from pax on older ships with portholes. Will this incident change pax expectations - possibly, but the sad fact it only lasts for a brief period. A classic example is the Costa Concordia, with most pax taking the Muster Drill seriously after the incident, but memories have faded and most are again complaining about the Musters.

 

Short of having design plans, I was accessing the published deck plans of the two companies. As you pointed out they each have their own method as to numbering decks. From photographs, it appears that both classes of ships have passenger accessible decks give or take the same distance from the water. The restaurant windows do appear to be fixed as opposed to being movable like the staterooms.

 

Having a movable window that low seems to be submitting to the marketing arm.

 

Side profiles are not to the same scale.

 

 MS Roald Amundsen

 

MS Viking Polaris

 

 

 

Edited December 3, 2022 by Heartgrove

[Sunflower & The Scientist]

3 hours ago, Heartgrove said:

I haven't sailed in the Antarctic region but have sailed in the Great Lakes when in the Coast Guard. The Great Lakes can be as rough if not rougher due to the shallower water causing more frequent but as tall swells. It is estimated that there have been 6,000 to 10,000 ships sunk in the Great Lakes. After this incident, I question sailing with Viking on the Great Lakes.

Would the Great Lakes rough waters occur in the summer months, or only in the winter? 

[chengkp75]

1 minute ago, Sunflower & The Scientist said:

Would the Great Lakes rough waters occur in the summer months, or only in the winter? 

Storms can happen at any time.

[duquephart]

16 minutes ago, Sunflower & The Scientist said:

Would the Great Lakes rough waters occur in the summer months, or only in the winter? 

When the winds of November -------------------

[Heidi13]

49 minutes ago, Sunflower & The Scientist said:

Would the Great Lakes rough waters occur in the summer months, or only in the winter? 

 

On the West Coast, I have experienced 55 kt storms in the summer, only difference the wind is predominantly NW'ly, whereas in winter the winds are mostly SE'ly. Also experienced a 70 kt storm in the Tasman Sea in summer. So, as the Chief noted, storms can happen any time.

[Heartgrove]

55 minutes ago, Sunflower & The Scientist said:

Would the Great Lakes rough waters occur in the summer months, or only in the winter? 

 

They can happen at anytime. Lake Michigan also has the possibility of a seiche occuring. It is similar to a tsunami but without the earthquake. Storm conditions drive the water to the eastern Michigan shore and then roll back doubling or tripling in height.

 

In June 1954 one occured in Chicago when a ten foot wave drowned seven people onshore. A summer storm had passed through a few hours earlier but the weather had become very pleasant. Little did anyone realize that the rogue seiche wave was then returning from the Michigan side of Lake Michigan. I remember that there was another one in the early to mid-60's but the authorities cleared the beaches so no loss of life.

 

One of my duty stations in the USCG was as a boat engineer at lifeboat station on Lake Michigan. Storms would come up and numerous times we would get a call for a "flare sighting" indicating a boat in distress. Out we would go in our 44-foot lifeboat at 12 knots. These were built to operate in 50 knot winds with 30 foot seas and remain unsunkable We would need to buckle on (no seats) by the coxswain. It would roll so much that the 12' VHF radio antennas would dip in the water with each roll.

Edited December 3, 2022 by Heartgrove

[tgh]

design based on event probability in order to economically stay viable

 

Of course "mere" engineering is not the only input ; insurers and users(sales) all have to be considered.
My comment about reclassification is probably unlikely as this would require a scapegoat and perhaps a brawl.
Reduced operational weather envelopes are the more likely solution ; allowing the ships to continue their agenda with the only visible element to passengers being a tendency for this operator to truncate or redirect cruises to avoid weather. Other more robust craft may continue business as usual….

[SantaFe1]

1 hour ago, duquephart said:

When the winds of November -------------------

I love this song.  But I believe it’s “gales”…

 

The legend lives on from the Chippewa on down
Of the big lake they called Gitche Gumee
The lake, it is said, never gives up her dead
When the skies of November turn gloomy
With a load of iron ore twenty-six thousand tons more
Than the Edmund Fitzgerald weighed empty
That good ship and true was a bone to be chewed
When the gales of November came early

 

But I digress, sorry.

[CurlerRob]

6 hours ago, Sunflower & The Scientist said:

Would the Great Lakes rough waters occur in the summer months, or only in the winter? 

As others have said, it can be any time, but from a practical standpoint, in a cold winter, the lakes can see extensive freezing - which negates most ship traffic. 
 

I have experienced storm force winds (50+ knots) on the lakes twice, both times in July. In general, the Great Lakes don’t develop the same wave height as the ocean, but their relative shallowness causes a much shorter wave period, which is a significant problem in it’s own right. 🍺🥌

 

[LHT28]

6 hours ago, duquephart said:

When the winds of November -------------------

or July

[Sunflower & The Scientist]

Thanks for all you input on the Great Lakes in July...I had no idea! I spent my life on the beaches of the Pacific, the Great Lakes are a mystery to me. We were on one Great Lakes in July this year, and are planning for another one in July 2024. Now I'm freaking out just a little because I don't want to become one of those that the Gitche Gumee never returns. One thing is for sure, you won't find me out there in November cause I'm not about being out there when the gales of November come slashin.............

[deec]

We sail on the Great Lakes all summer in our 40 ft sailboat.  Yes it can get rough and we are prudent about leaving port if there are severe thunderstorms in the forcast  but for the most part it is beautiful weather with just enough breeze to keep the black flies away!!!

[radarcruiser]

So will the ship have to cancel any upcoming cruises to undertake repairs?

[Toofarfromthesea]

On 12/2/2022 at 6:06 PM, donaldsc said:

Rogue waves can occur anywhere.  Check these out -

 

https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2010/03/rogue_waves_kill_two_on_medite.html

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-baoQQAeM3w

https://buffalonews.com/news/cruise-ship-was-hit-by-a-rogue-wave/article_317fef4e-1c00-5057-9815-

https://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/19/nyregion/landfall-in-manhattan-after-a-70foot-wave.html

 

DON

 

All the more reason to build to protect against them?

[chengkp75]

1 hour ago, radarcruiser said:

So will the ship have to cancel any upcoming cruises to undertake repairs?

I believe that the next cruise has already been cancelled.

9 minutes ago, Toofarfromthesea said:

 

All the more reason to build to protect against them?

Again, you cannot make something that never fails.  How many tons of force do you design for?  How much does this affect the vessel's stability, or operational ability?  Do you design ship's balconies so that no one can ever jump over the side?

[RICHARD@SEA]

Don't mess with Mother Nature....

 

back in the 1990's I was a cruise to Bermuda on the Celebrity Zenith that sailed out of NYC.  There was a reported storm  - the idiot of a captain decided to sail anyway - Cunard decided to keep the QE2 in NYC an extra day to avoid the same storm.

Well we went through HELL - I'm talking passengers & furniture being tossed around, the ship went into lock down & we were 24 hours late docking in Hamilton Bermuda.  Many passengers left the ship in Bermuda & flew home.

 

When we disembarked the ship in Bermuda - the front of the hull was dented in several places due to the pounding of waves against it during the storm.  The Zenith was fairly new at the time.....

 

After more than 40+ cruises - it was the worst storm I ever encountered & the last time I was on a Celebrity ship.

 

Rogue waves can occur anytime - its not the Captains or ships fault  - its just Mother Nature!!!

[RICHARD@SEA]

Just now, RICHARD@SEA said:

Don't mess with Mother Nature....

 

back in the 1990's I was a cruise to Bermuda on the Celebrity Zenith that sailed out of NYC.  There was a reported storm  - the idiot of a captain decided to sail anyway - Cunard decided to keep the QE2 in NYC an extra day to avoid the same storm.

Well we went through HELL - I'm talking passengers & furniture being tossed around, the ship went into lock down & we were 24 hours late docking in Hamilton Bermuda.  Many passengers left the ship in Bermuda & flew home.

 

When we disembarked the ship in Bermuda - the front of the hull was dented in several places due to the pounding of waves against it during the storm.  The Zenith was fairly new at the time.....

 

After more than 40+ cruises - it was the worst storm I ever encountered & the last time I was on a Celebrity ship.

 

Rogue waves can occur anytime - its not the Captains or ships fault  - its just Mother Nature!!!

PS -

 

In the case of the Bermuda cruise I was on  - it was the Captains fault...the ship never should of left NYC

[Heidi13]

16 hours ago, RICHARD@SEA said:

PS -

 

In the case of the Bermuda cruise I was on  - it was the Captains fault...the ship never should of left NYC

 

In addition to questioning whether the ship should have sailed, I would also question the actions once the storm hit, since it was probably prudent to "hove to", which is maintaining only sufficient speed for steerage, while riding out the storm.