Muster drills to return to pre-Covid style

[Elvis1209]

8 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

I find it interesting that those who have no maritime experience, and no safety training experience, are against returning to the old muster format, while anyone who has had maritime or naval experience understands the lack of training provided by the e-muster, and recommend returning to the old muster.

 

What he said!!!

 

Elvis

 

Chief, you are never going to convince the naysayers of the importance of the drill.  You and I should meet up at the muster station in the event of an emergency.  I have a flask! 

Edited January 28, 2023 by Elvis1209

[bookbabe]

I've always wished that they did at least portions of the muster drill in the waiting area while we are already all captive waiting to board anyway.  They could easily combine things, maybe still have the video to watch pre-cruise, then an overview of the process and life jacket instruction in the waiting area, with your key card not working for your cabin or the beverage package until it's been "activated" by swiping it at your actual muster station.  You could do the info session by boarding groups, which might even help with the queue jumpers as well as killing some time while waiting for the ship to clear for boarding.

 

Even if they just stayed with the pre-cruise video to watch, having key cards not work until swiped at the muster station would help to solve the continuous "please go check in at your muster station" announcements.  Or if their IT isn't up to that, then even a sticker on your card that indicates you've checked in, and no drinks until you do.  Bet a lot more people would make the muster station their first stop once on board... 😉

[RocketMan275]

14 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

How effective are scripted scenarios in reflecting a real emergency response?  Not well, from my experience.  Are you going to discipline crew if they don't act convincingly panicked?  If they just want to horse around and make a joke of it?  If they find their roommate or boy/girlfriend on the other side of the scenario?

 

Even when we would script a crew member to be a "casualty", the response both from casualty and response team were not what you would expect in an emergency. 

 

And, when would this drill using hundreds of crew (to simulate the passenger muster realistically) take place?  What passenger services or areas of the ship would you inhibit to be able to have this drill?

 

Does a real emergency on a ship require 4000 passengers and crew?  If it does, then the realistic way to train is to use 4000 passengers and crew.

And, were the areas away from the muster stations crowded and chaotic?  Were the elevators shut down?  Were the stairwells packed with people?  I fail to see how someone who says they've designed training for the military can think that the e-muster is in any way realistic training.  Did you just design the training, or did you apply it, was it for emergency response, did it get repeated?

Interesting that  you would claim that using scripted scenarios isn't an effective training measure because you cannot control the actors or the crew response.  Yet, you claim that unscripted, random, interactions with passengers is effecitve?  The real passengers maynot be non-compliant consistent with the training desired?  For example, how often does a crew member encounter a panicked passenger in the traditional muster? Or an intoxicated passenger?  A training schedule can be developed that exposes crew members to these scenarios.  Port days when the ship is relatively emply would work well.  You could even centralize this training where a contingent of specially trained personnel spend time on each ship to conduct this training.

I served as a platoon leader, company commander, and brigade staff office responsible for designing, conducting and reviewing training.  One thing I learned is that training that wastes the troops times isn't effective training.  It should be clear from other responses that passengers sense that traditional muster drills are not more effective than the emusters, that traditional musters are a waste of their time.  All the passengers need to know is the muster signal and the location of their muster station which is accomplished by the emuster.

Once again, I'm not against safety training but I believe the training should be conducted in a manner that is effective and does not waste passenger time.  Nor should it treat the passengers are aides in the training of the crew.

[www3traveler]

39 minutes ago, RocketMan275 said:

Interesting that  you would claim that using scripted scenarios isn't an effective training measure because you cannot control the actors or the crew response.  Yet, you claim that unscripted, random, interactions with passengers is effecitve?  The real passengers maynot be non-compliant consistent with the training desired?  For example, how often does a crew member encounter a panicked passenger in the traditional muster? Or an intoxicated passenger?  A training schedule can be developed that exposes crew members to these scenarios.  Port days when the ship is relatively emply would work well.  You could even centralize this training where a contingent of specially trained personnel spend time on each ship to conduct this training.

I served as a platoon leader, company commander, and brigade staff office responsible for designing, conducting and reviewing training.  One thing I learned is that training that wastes the troops times isn't effective training.  It should be clear from other responses that passengers sense that traditional muster drills are not more effective than the emusters, that traditional musters are a waste of their time.  All the passengers need to know is the muster signal and the location of their muster station which is accomplished by the emuster.

Once again, I'm not against safety training but I believe the training should be conducted in a manner that is effective and does not waste passenger time.  Nor should it treat the passengers are aides in the training of the crew.

Since you feel so strongly about this issue and nothing can be resolved about it on the forum, I would suggest that you write a letter to the International Maritime Organization in London, England.  They would be only people who could make the changes you think need to be made.  I am assuming that they have a website to obtain their exact mailing address.

[sunkey1]

Worked on the ships as staff and have cruised for 40+ years as a passenger. Does anyone seriously think that in the event of an emergency people are going to proceed in an orderly fashion to their designated stations? I couldn't even get people to proceed in an orderly fashion onto tenders half the time...

[chengkp75]

1 hour ago, RocketMan275 said:

The real passengers maynot be non-compliant consistent with the training desired?  For example, how often does a crew member encounter a panicked passenger in the traditional muster? Or an intoxicated passenger?

They would not experience a panicked passenger, but they routinely see intoxicated passengers.  And, what is the major complaint about the traditional muster?  That they take too long because there are absentees.  Don't you think these absentees are recalcitrant, sometimes belligerent?

 

1 hour ago, RocketMan275 said:

Port days when the ship is relatively emply would work well.

So, those who remain onboard during a port day would be the ones inconvenienced?  But, hey, you're not one.  How do you verify that someone staying onboard is not in the shower or doing something in their cabin that is private?

 

1 hour ago, RocketMan275 said:

You could even centralize this training where a contingent of specially trained personnel spend time on each ship to conduct this training.

Does the cruise line absorb the cost of this cadre of personnel?  What do they do when not conducting onboard training?  Again, when does this training take place?

 

1 hour ago, RocketMan275 said:

that traditional musters are a waste of their time.

This is the key argument, that it interferes with their valuable vacation time.

 

1 hour ago, RocketMan275 said:

Nor should it treat the passengers are aides in the training of the crew.

In your training, if you trained one component at one time, and another component at a different time, did they always work well together when either incorporated into a combined training, or in a real situation?  That's what you are suggesting for the muster drill.  And, don't think for a moment that the crew don't know that the passengers feel that they, like you, have no interest in training for saving the passengers' lives.

 

And, who decided that the training was a waste of the troops' time, the troops or the commanders?  Those with experience, or those without?

 

Edited January 28, 2023 by chengkp75

[CJANDH]

The article linked here gives a very clear statement from each of the major cruise lines and the US Coastguard about the efficacy of the E-muster systems that have evolved over time. Royal and Carnival strongly claim that their E-muster is better training than mass mustering, even if it costs more in staffing costs. 

Norwegian and Disney are putting cost savings ahead of customer comfort despite E-mustering being endorsed by their competition and the Coastguard.

 

https://thepointsguy.com/news/cruise-ship-muster-drill-changes-reasons/

[RocketMan275]

25 minutes ago, CJANDH said:

The article linked here gives a very clear statement from each of the major cruise lines and the US Coastguard about the efficacy of the E-muster systems that have evolved over time. Royal and Carnival strongly claim that their E-muster is better training than mass mustering, even if it costs more in staffing costs. 

Norwegian and Disney are putting cost savings ahead of customer comfort despite E-mustering being endorsed by their competition and the Coastguard.

 

https://thepointsguy.com/news/cruise-ship-muster-drill-changes-reasons/

"E-muster requires more staffing resources," Carnival noted in its statement to TPG. "But our experience with the e-muster process has been extremely positive, and we are able to provide our guests with critical safety information in a more individualized manner, including them understanding very specifically where their muster station is and how to get to it."

 

In other words, Carnival sees the e-muster process as, if anything, safer than the old style of in-person mustering.

 

I can't wait for the inevitable "if you like emuster so well, then cruise carnival" comments.

 

"Safer than the old style of in-person mustering".  Imagine that.  More effective in safety training.  TPG is speculating that returning to the old style muster is a cost savings move. 

 

I suspect it has more to do with 'we've always done it that way' instead of real cost savings.  I find it difficult to believe that stationing a couple of crew at each muster station for a few hours, maybe four, is less efficient than disrupting the whole crew for at least an hour or so traditional muster.   

 

"Our implementation [of e-mustering] has also received very positive feedback from the U.S. Coast Guard and other safety experts, as well as generated positive comments for effectiveness from our guests during our post-cruise survey results," Carnival added in its statement to TPG. "We will continue to utilize our e-mustering process while always looking for ways to improve its effectiveness."

 

IOW, the return isn't being driven by safety experts or by the Coast Guard.

 

Time to rest my case.

Until it's time to submit my post cruise survey.   

You can bet I will have some things to say. 

Edited January 28, 2023 by RocketMan275

[Ken the cruiser]

We’re currently on the Dawn and the “old time” muster drill consisted of going to your predefined collection point, which in our case it was the Venetian MDR. They then scanned our room cards and we went to find a seat. Then came a 10-15 minute safety briefing over the loud speaker which included a live demonstration of using the life preserver. That was it. However, there was no queuing up outside on the promenade deck at your defined muster station like in the past. It was very painless and the safety briefing was actually quite informative, unlike when we went to checkin online during the “eMuster” days and then quickly going to our onboard muster station to briefly check in and head on our way.

[wcook]

3 hours ago, CJANDH said:

 

https://thepointsguy.com/news/cruise-ship-muster-drill-changes-reasons/

Seriously folks, read the article. 

[chengkp75]

10 hours ago, wcook said:

Seriously folks, read the article. 

Interesting that the author did not reach out to the USCG for clarification or attribution of the comments about "positive feedback".  Were the comments about the effectiveness of the training, or the compliance with the drill?  And, ultimately, the USCG is not who will determine whether the e-muster stays, it is the IMO.

[chengkp75]

10 hours ago, Ken the cruiser said:

your predefined collection point

Which is your muster station, and at which you would remain until the Captain decides it is necessary to get into the boats.

 

10 hours ago, Ken the cruiser said:

However, there was no queuing up outside on the promenade deck at your defined muster station like in the past.

If I remember correctly from my cruise on the Dawn in 2006, most of the muster stations were indoor stations.  It is very expensive for a ship to change muster locations, and these locations must be approved by the classification societies as meeting the safety requirements of a safe muster location.  I have never heard of a ship changing muster locations from the time it was built until it is scrapped.  If you are directed to the dining room on the evacuation plan, then that is your "defined muster station".

[ontheweb]

12 hours ago, wcook said:

Seriously folks, read the article. 

I read it, and I had the same thought as cheng that they quoted Carnival as to what the Coast Guard has said as opposed to checking it out with the Coast Guard. The article also seemed to imply that there was a lot of cost cutting by NCL without mentioning at all that cost cutting was industry wide.

 

And of course the passenger surveys said they liked it as it was so much easier for the passengers and they were in general not considering whether it would be less safe if there was a real emergency.

[RocketMan275]

11 minutes ago, ontheweb said:

I read it, and I had the same thought as cheng that they quoted Carnival as to what the Coast Guard has said as opposed to checking it out with the Coast Guard. The article also seemed to imply that there was a lot of cost cutting by NCL without mentioning at all that cost cutting was industry wide.

 

And of course the passenger surveys said they liked it as it was so much easier for the passengers and they were in general not considering whether it would be less safe if there was a real emergency.

So, you  think Carnival was misrepresenting what the Coast Guard said.

 

Carnival did not choose to cut costs where it impacted passenger safety like NCL did.

 

"In other words, Carnival sees the e-muster process as, if anything, safer than the old style of in-person mustering."

[ontheweb]

5 minutes ago, RocketMan275 said:

So, you  think Carnival was misrepresenting what the Coast Guard said.

 

Carnival did not choose to cut costs where it impacted passenger safety like NCL did.

 

"In other words, Carnival sees the e-muster process as, if anything, safer than the old style of in-person mustering."

I think Carnival sees the e-muster as more satisfying to its customers. As for safer, that is just their assumption, or maybe wishful thinking.

[RocketMan275]

Just now, ontheweb said:

I think Carnival sees the e-muster as more satisfying to its customers. As for safer, that is just their assumption, or maybe wishful thinking.

If that's correct, then the belief of yourself and others that the traditional muster is safer is also an "assumption or maybe wishful thinking."    I believe there are some who measure the effectiveness of training by the degree to which it is uncomfortable, ie, training cannot be effective unless it imposes discomfort.

[ontheweb]

2 minutes ago, RocketMan275 said:

If that's correct, then the belief of yourself and others that the traditional muster is safer is also an "assumption or maybe wishful thinking."    I believe there are some who measure the effectiveness of training by the degree to which it is uncomfortable, ie, training cannot be effective unless it imposes discomfort.

I will go by what experienced Mariners who have had experience with the traditional muster drill say. No one has as of yet had to deal with a real emergency situation with the new e-muster and can actually somehow say it is safer. 

[Ken the cruiser]

3 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

Which is your muster station, and at which you would remain until the Captain decides it is necessary to get into the boats.

 

If I remember correctly from my cruise on the Dawn in 2006, most of the muster stations were indoor stations.  It is very expensive for a ship to change muster locations, and these locations must be approved by the classification societies as meeting the safety requirements of a safe muster location.  I have never heard of a ship changing muster locations from the time it was built until it is scrapped.  If you are directed to the dining room on the evacuation plan, then that is your "defined muster station".

Without out a doubt, I’m sure you are correct. I was just reflecting back on our days when we cruised on the older HAL ships before the Pinnacle class ships when we had to line up toe-to-heel so to speak at our muster station out on the promenade. 

[RocketMan275]

57 minutes ago, ontheweb said:

I will go by what experienced Mariners who have had experience with the traditional muster drill say. No one has as of yet had to deal with a real emergency situation with the new e-muster and can actually somehow say it is safer. 

Why not go with Carnival cruise line who also has experienced mariners and who feels the emuster is a better safety drill?

[chengkp75]

1 hour ago, RocketMan275 said:

Why not go with Carnival cruise line who also has experienced mariners and who feels the emuster is a better safety drill?

Who at Carnival feels the e-muster is a better safety drill?  The ships' officers or the corporate head office?  I'll bet that there was not a survey of ship's leadership on this.

 

2 hours ago, RocketMan275 said:

So, you  think Carnival was misrepresenting what the Coast Guard said.

I'm saying that the statement says nothing without some context.

 

2 hours ago, RocketMan275 said:

Carnival did not choose to cut costs where it impacted passenger safety like NCL did.

That is the author's contention, not a proven fact.  There can be correlation without causation.  Did Disney have a bunch of cost cutting before they were the first to revert? And, while the e-muster may require crew to deal with the muster for longer periods during the turn-around, it does not require more crew to accomplish.  I question anything that Carnival Corp says about operations, given their proven disregard for environmental issues, why should passenger safety be any more important to them?

[ontheweb]

1 hour ago, RocketMan275 said:

Why not go with Carnival cruise line who also has experienced mariners and who feels the emuster is a better safety drill?

A responsible journalist would have asked NCL for their comments and also followed up with the Coast Guard in order to put the comments by Carnival in context.

[CJANDH]

1 hour ago, ontheweb said:

A responsible journalist would have asked NCL for their comments

If you read the article you will see that the author did contact Norwegian and was given a "we did it because we did" answer.

[ontheweb]

8 hours ago, CJANDH said:

If you read the article you will see that the author did contact Norwegian and was given a "we did it because we did" answer.

Did they contact the Coast Guard?

 

And you make it sound like they did it to save money when they probably did it to make things safer,

[New2cruise2022]

Attitude makes all the difference with muster drills. There are groups of people complaining and annoyed while they wait. There are other groups of people laughing and enjoying being together on a ship. All are annoyed with the inconvenience but some have chosen to begin enjoying their cruise sooner. 
 

Pro Tip — Keep a drink in hand (alcoholic or whatever) so you have something to sip while you wait. 
 

Happy (and safe) cruising!

[nmuller328]

I have no problem going back to the in person drill- as someone who spent 6 hrs outside in a life jacket of the Grandeur of the Seas in  May 2013 - with the lifeboats dropped as close as you could get to abandoning ship while they fought a fire in the back of the boat. I am very happy to do what ever is needed to know where my muster drill is - and help train the staff in managing getting all of the passengers where they need to be to be safe.  Doing drills with just staff isn't realistic- you need to have the real thing- people just being people like so many of you have stated in this thread.  I will say I have comfort in having seen the emergency procedure in action- seeing first hand how they looked for every passenger & knew where they were.  ( we even received confirmation that our family was safe as we were split between 3 muster stations)   So these drills are not just for us- but for the crew- How many crew members change ships, are totally new to cruising- they need the drills as much as we need to know where to go.  How many posters would be the first to complain after the emergency that staff didn't know what they were doing. 

Curious- how do they do emergency drills in school, at your job - is it just a video- or a live drill?  

Re the crowds- it's amazing how we all cry we want to be back to normal- don't need to be 6 ft apart, don't want to wear a mask but are the first to play that card when it's something you really don't want to do.  It's an hour out of your cruise- but it could save your life.  

Safe Cruising