Neptune GI Outbreak

[Meander Ingwa]

if you are given Fluroquinolone class antibiotics ( end with floxacin) be very careful.  A small number of people with potentially have tendon pathology, including tears and ruptures after  / while using them.  

 

I wish I had treated my "tourista" in Papua New Guinea a bit more conservatively .  1/2 year off my sport due to partially torn tendons in my arm

[jasardeax]

In India our guide and several travelers used PERENTEROL

They said it was very effective. 

We purchased some, but fortunately, didn’t need to use it. 

[Twitchly]

39 minutes ago, Meander Ingwa said:

I think it is notable that the crew had a lower incidence of illness, despite their closer quarters and contact with each other and with passenger personal areas , like bathrooms and beds.  I suspect the work staff are well versed in personal sanitation and safety and know it is a vital part of their job.

That may not be the reason for the low statistic. It’s possible the ship’s crew is underreporting illness. In the article quoted in the first post in this thread, it says:

——

Recent federal studies show that sick employees were behind a majority of food contamination and foodborne illness outbreaks in the U.S. The CDC found that among outbreaks where a contributing factor was identified, 41% were caused by food contamination from ill or infectious employees.

“If a food worker stays on the job while sick and does not wash his or her hands carefully after using the toilet, the food worker can spread germs by touching food,” according to the CDC’s website. Norovirus is the leading cause of foodborne illness in the United States.

[…]

In the cruise line context, many waiters and food handlers, who are paid almost exclusively by tips, are often reluctant to go to the ship infirmary when they are ill. No cruise line, to our knowledge, provides paid sick leave to their crew members. Unfortunately, there’s an incentive to work while sick on a cruise ship in order to be paid. 

——

 

[Twitchly]

14 minutes ago, jasardeax said:

In India our guide and several travelers used PERENTEROL

They said it was very effective. 

We purchased some, but fortunately, didn’t need to use it. 

I believe that is a probiotic made from yeast. 

[CDNPolar]

5 minutes ago, Twitchly said:

That may not be the reason for the low statistic. It’s possible the ship’s crew is underreporting illness. In the article quoted in the first post in this thread, it says:

——

Recent federal studies show that sick employees were behind a majority of food contamination and foodborne illness outbreaks in the U.S. The CDC found that among outbreaks where a contributing factor was identified, 41% were caused by food contamination from ill or infectious employees.

“If a food worker stays on the job while sick and does not wash his or her hands carefully after using the toilet, the food worker can spread germs by touching food,” according to the CDC’s website. Norovirus is the leading cause of foodborne illness in the United States.

[…]

In the cruise line context, many waiters and food handlers, who are paid almost exclusively by tips, are often reluctant to go to the ship infirmary when they are ill. No cruise line, to our knowledge, provides paid sick leave to their crew members. Unfortunately, there’s an incentive to work while sick on a cruise ship in order to be paid. 

——

 

 

Let's not underestimate how many cruise. ship guests do not wash their hands leaving the bathroom and are responsible for spreading this.  Let't not assume that this is the staff.

 

All you have to do is google statistics for the number of average people that don't wash their hands.

 

I have been in a Viking ship public bathroom many times that someone leaves without washing their hands.... now I have the virus on my fingers after washing my hands because I touched the handle to get out.

Edited June 21, 2023 by CDNPolar

[Twitchly]

1 minute ago, CDNPolar said:

 

Let's not underestimate how many cruise. ship guests do not wash their hands leaving the bathroom and are responsible for spreading this.  Let't not assume that this is the staff.

not to worry. I’m not assuming anything. Just pointing out that statistics don’t always tell the whole story.

[Jim Avery]

There is obviously more to this than just not washing hands.  Years ago you never heard of this.  Yes, I know there was a point in time no one reported but my point is it keeps getting worse.  Are people really doing number 2 and not washing hands then smearing stuff all over?  We have traveled the world for many years and our very first noro was last month on the Nieuw Amsterdam in Alaska.  It aint fun but I think the cramming together of more and more people is the issue.  Every where you go is overcrowded and every ship, plane, train are jammed to capacity.  Too many people is the core issue for most problems on this planet.  6 billion more people than when I was a kid.  There has to be some limits or nature will do it for us.  

[sugarside]

Apparently the US mainland has had a record number of cases already this year with hospitals especially being affected.

[LindaS272]

1 minute ago, sugarside said:

Apparently the US mainland has had a record number of cases already this year with hospitals especially being affected.

Gee—can you cite your sources? I read three major U.S. national papers and the major metropolitan paper where I live and have not seen anything about this. If it’s “apparent”, as you say, where is it being reported?

[millybess]

1 hour ago, CDNPolar said:

I have been in a Viking ship public bathroom many times that someone leaves without washing their hands.... now I have the virus on my fingers after washing my hands because I touched the handle to get out.

Which is why they have a paper towel dispenser near the door with a sign to use the paper towel to open the door and then toss the paper towel into the garbage.  It's very handy and easy.  I use it all the time and wish more peeps used it. 

[Cienfuegos]

2 hours ago, millybess said:

Which is why they have a paper towel dispenser near the door with a sign to use the paper towel to open the door and then toss the paper towel into the garbage.  It's very handy and easy.  I use it all the time and wish more peeps used it. 

Yes.

 

On my Trade Routes cruise in 2018, Viking placed waitstaff squarely in the entryways to the World Buffet. Specifically to direct everyone to the adjacent washing stations.  About half the guests ignored them and pushed past.

 

Back in the old days, buffet service didn't allow self-service. You pointed, they plated the food.

[fudgbug]

4 hours ago, CDNPolar said:

 

Let's not underestimate how many cruise. ship guests do not wash their hands leaving the bathroom and are responsible for spreading this.  Let't not assume that this is the staff.

 

All you have to do is google statistics for the number of average people that don't wash their hands.

 

I have been in a Viking ship public bathroom many times that someone leaves without washing their hands.... n

"now I have the virus on my fingers after washing my hands because I touched the handle to get out."  Use a tissue or paper towel on the door handles. 🙂

[Clay Clayton]

23 hours ago, Mich3554 said:

Everyone on the Neptune was VERY careful not to call it norovirus, but a gastrointestinal illness.  
It did make the last week or so on the ship difficult.  The poor waitstaff had to do everything, and they were run off their feet.  We ordered room service this morning before disembarking.  According to another world cruiser who was behind me in line in immigrations this morning, she said it was crazy on steroids up there.  We made a good decision.

Looks like CDC decided it was noro. 
https://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/cruises/2023/06/20/viking-cruise-passengers-outbreak/70337797007/

[CDNPolar]

15 minutes ago, fudgbug said:

"now I have the virus on my fingers after washing my hands because I touched the handle to get out."  Use a tissue or paper towel on the door handles. 🙂

Yes.  I do that but many don’t.  
 

The fact is that three years of Covid taught us nothing.  We are not considerate of ourselves and others.  

[Heidi13]

4 hours ago, Twitchly said:

 

In the cruise line context, many waiters and food handlers, who are paid almost exclusively by tips, are often reluctant to go to the ship infirmary when they are ill. No cruise line, to our knowledge, provides paid sick leave to their crew members. Unfortunately, there’s an incentive to work while sick on a cruise ship in order to be paid. 

——

 

 

That is not my experience. All crew members receive free medical care, including treatments, tests and medications when they are signed on the ship. When I worked on the ship, we were not ex-paid for any days we were sick onboard. How tips are affected, when crew are sick, is not something I know and may vary with cruise line and individual contracts.

 

When I worked for P&O, if we were sick while on leave, we called the office and they added the days to our leave. I believe when our son was on a UK contract he had a similar benefit.

 

Sick crew members not reporting to the Medical Centre are also liable to incur disciplinary actions. 

 

Another factor that reduces crew infections is certain groups of officers/crew go into almost isolation where they have minimal contact with the hotel staff and zero with pax.

[stephenandrew]

4 hours ago, Twitchly said:

That may not be the reason for the low statistic. It’s possible the ship’s crew is underreporting illness. In the article quoted in the first post in this thread, it says:

——

Recent federal studies show that sick employees were behind a majority of food contamination and foodborne illness outbreaks in the U.S. The CDC found that among outbreaks where a contributing factor was identified, 41% were caused by food contamination from ill or infectious employees.

“If a food worker stays on the job while sick and does not wash his or her hands carefully after using the toilet, the food worker can spread germs by touching food,” according to the CDC’s website. Norovirus is the leading cause of foodborne illness in the United States.

[…]

In the cruise line context, many waiters and food handlers, who are paid almost exclusively by tips, are often reluctant to go to the ship infirmary when they are ill. No cruise line, to our knowledge, provides paid sick leave to their crew members. Unfortunately, there’s an incentive to work while sick on a cruise ship in order to be paid. 

——

I think this is an insightful observation.  If a business has a policy that financially punishes employees who are sick, all other thing being equal, sick employees will continue to work.  I’m pretty conservative by nature, but I’m a big time believer in requiring any employer to provide paid time off for sick employees, because I don’t want sick restaurant kitchen staff making my lunch.

 

[JollyJacqTar]

15 hours ago, CDNPolar said:

 

Let's not underestimate how many cruise. ship guests do not wash their hands leaving the bathroom and are responsible for spreading this.  Let't not assume that this is the staff.

 

All you have to do is google statistics for the number of average people that don't wash their hands.

 

I have been in a Viking ship public bathroom many times that someone leaves without washing their hands.... now I have the virus on my fingers after washing my hands because I touched the handle to get out.

Our last cruise was during the time when there was still daily testing and a great emphasis on hand washing and general hygiene to prevent Covid infection and we both saw a disturbing number of people not washing their hands after using the public loos. I despair! 

[CDNPolar]

15 hours ago, Jim Avery said:

There is obviously more to this than just not washing hands.  Years ago you never heard of this.  Yes, I know there was a point in time no one reported but my point is it keeps getting worse.  Are people really doing number 2 and not washing hands then smearing stuff all over?  We have traveled the world for many years and our very first noro was last month on the Nieuw Amsterdam in Alaska.  It aint fun but I think the cramming together of more and more people is the issue.  Every where you go is overcrowded and every ship, plane, train are jammed to capacity.  Too many people is the core issue for most problems on this planet.  6 billion more people than when I was a kid.  There has to be some limits or nature will do it for us.  

 

Jim - with all due respect, this is information directly from the CDC site.

 

Unless Viking and other cruise ships have infected tap water used for washing food and our drinking water, then the virus is being passed by individuals on the ship and the transmission method is very clear...  This could be passengers and crew.

 

As long as I can remember there have been 'gastric' outbreaks on cruise ships but you will also find that cruise ships are not the primary venue where this virus is spread.

 

Personally, for me, the only way to protect myself and my husband is to wash hands, and then wash hands again after serving ourselves at a buffet before eating... and to continue the practices that we learned during Covid which is hands and fingers never go to mouth, nose, eyes, unless washed first.  This to me is a key part of avoiding this and we are now not as diligent in defending ourselves against a virus like this because we have let down our guard.

 

Many of us traveled on cruise ships during Covid where awareness was high and there was no norovirus, but all of a sudden now, it is picking up again?  Why?  My personal opinion is that our defenses are down and we are not taking care of ourselves and others anymore...

 

https://www.cdc.gov/norovirus/about/transmission.html

 

You can get norovirus by:

• Having direct contact with someone with norovirus, such as by caring for them, sharing food or eating utensils with them, or eating food handled by them.
• Eating food or drinking liquids that are contaminated with norovirus.
• Touching surfaces or objects contaminated with norovirus and then putting your unwashed fingers in your mouth.

You are most contagious:

• When you have symptoms of norovirus illness, especially vomiting.
• During the first few days after you feel better.

However, studies have shown that you can still spread norovirus for two weeks or more after you feel better.

 

Norovirus spreads through contaminated food

This can happen when:

• A person with norovirus touches food with their bare hands.
• Food is placed on a counter or surface that has poop or vomit particles on it.
• Tiny drops of vomit from a person with norovirus spray through the air and land on the food.
• Food is grown with contaminated water, such as oysters, or fruit and vegetables are watered with contaminated water in the field.

For more information about norovirus and food, see Common Settings of Norovirus Outbreaks.

Norovirus spreads through contaminated water

Recreational or drinking water can get contaminated with norovirus:

• At the source such as when a septic tank leaks into a well.
• When a person with norovirus vomits or poops in the water.
• When water isn’t treated properly, such as with not enough chlorine.

For more information, see Healthy Water.

Norovirus spreads through sick people and contaminated surfaces

This can happen when:

• A person with norovirus touches surfaces with their bare hands.
• Food, water, or objects that are contaminated with norovirus are placed on surfaces.
• Tiny drops of vomit from a person with norovirus spray through the air, landing on surfaces or entering another person’s mouth.
• A person with norovirus has diarrhea that splatters onto surfaces.

[Jim Avery]

Hi Polar,

Yes, I know the official party line and I am all for hand washing (not the smeary junk in the dispensers) at the sinks with soap and water.  Same when using the public toilets.  It's just good sense.  My point was that we seem to be getting worse.  Generally just sicker population?  The declining manners of the masses? Or is the overcrowding everywhere contributing?  Something is changing and not for the better.  Hand washing is just good hygiene but lack of it is not why we are generally seeing more and more of this type of illness.  Also the head/chest bronchitis that we used to call the "airplane crud" because we used to come down with it after long haul flights.  Doesn't seem to even need a long haul any more.  We love cruising but will limit ourselves to smaller ships with fewer passengers in the future no matter how cheap the alternative....🍹

[stephenandrew]

21 hours ago, Jim Avery said:

There is obviously more to this than just not washing hands.  Years ago you never heard of this.  Yes, I know there was a point in time no one reported but my point is it keeps getting worse.  Are people really doing number 2 and not washing hands then smearing stuff all over?  We have traveled the world for many years and our very first noro was last month on the Nieuw Amsterdam in Alaska.  It aint fun but I think the cramming together of more and more people is the issue.  Every where you go is overcrowded and every ship, plane, train are jammed to capacity.  Too many people is the core issue for most problems on this planet.  6 billion more people than when I was a kid.  There has to be some limits or nature will do it for us.  

Makes sense….more people traveling, cruising, flying now than 20 years ago.  Certainly increases the probability that “patient zero” is somewhere in that group of travelers.  Coupled with the relatively confined spaces of planes, ships, etc. and seems like more travel related illness is inevitable.

[Clay Clayton]

🤔

https://www.vikingcruises.com/oceans/my-trip/current-sailings/index.html

[SJD117]

Business Insider reported a couple of days ago that the Neptune “transformed itself into a cross-continental petri dish.” Ouch!

[chengkp75]

On 6/21/2023 at 5:35 PM, Clay Clayton said:

Looks like CDC decided it was noro. 
https://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/cruises/2023/06/20/viking-cruise-passengers-outbreak/70337797007/

It requires lab testing of fecal samples to determine if it is noro or not.

 

On 6/22/2023 at 5:18 AM, CDNPolar said:

As long as I can remember there have been 'gastric' outbreaks on cruise ships but you will also find that cruise ships are not the primary venue where this virus is spread.

Just like I can't help but notice that Jim Walker's article doesn't have the facts correct, I'll put in my personal experience.  The fact Mr. Walker misrepresented (serious for an officer of the court, but he does it all the time), is that the cruise lines have to report GI illness when it reaches 3% of passengers or crew.  This is not correct.  The cruise ship has to report to the CDC, every voyage, even if there have been no reported cases.  They then have to submit an updated report when the levels reach 2% of pax or crew, and finally when it reaches 3%, they have to report daily.

 

In my time on cruise ships, I don't think I can recall a single cruise that did not have at least one case of GI illness  And that was over a decade ago.  It has been a fact of life on cruise ships for years.  Why the sudden increase this year?  Most likely because everyone is "Covid conditioned" for an aerosol virus, and not one that transmits via contact.  Also likely that the mitigation measures employed to beat Covid, also lowered the immune level of many, so they are more susceptible to noro.

[Meander Ingwa]

On 6/22/2023 at 7:12 AM, Jim Avery said:

 My point was that we seem to be getting worse.  Generally just sicker population?  The declining manners of the masses? Or is the overcrowding everywhere contributing?  Something is changing a

It has always been around.  These days, however, you hear about it widely via social media , often within a day.

 

It never rose to "newsworthy".  These days everyone thinks everything is newsworthy

 

Sickest I have even been was at a meeting.in Vegas.  Wanted to truly die

[MELSMOM47]

On 6/21/2023 at 1:17 PM, CDNPolar said:

 

Let's not underestimate how many cruise. ship guests do not wash their hands leaving the bathroom and are responsible for spreading this.  Let't not assume that this is the staff.

 

All you have to do is google statistics for the number of average people that don't wash their hands.

 

I have been in a Viking ship public bathroom many times that someone leaves without washing their hands.... now I have the virus on my fingers after washing my hands because I touched the handle to get out.

I found it interesting that Viking had signs in the public bathrooms advising passengers to use a paper towel when exiting the restroom. 👍🏻