NCL Princess or HAL for Alaska?

[Aquahound]

3 hours ago, tetleytea said:

Princess did that, too.   Their cruise map very clearly showed them sailing inside, and they didn't.

 

Yeah, Princess' new ships are too big to cruise the IP.  If I remember the story correctly, Princess planned those itineraries but were denied by the Canadian pilots.  

[tetleytea]

9 minutes ago, Aquahound said:

 

Yeah, Princess' new ships are too big to cruise the IP.  If I remember the story correctly, Princess planned those itineraries but were denied by the Canadian pilots.  

I just find it hard to believe that Princess never had the chance to inform customers (or even potential customers) that they got denied by Canada.   Something like that, you'll get plenty of advance notice.    It's not like you board the ship and then, afterward, at the last minute you just now find out the ship is too big to sail the Inside.

 

 

[Coral]

1 hour ago, tetleytea said:

I just find it hard to believe that Princess never had the chance to inform customers (or even potential customers) that they got denied by Canada.   Something like that, you'll get plenty of advance notice.    It's not like you board the ship and then, afterward, at the last minute you just now find out the ship is too big to sail the Inside.

 

 

Technically - it is the Royal Class and beyond ships that are too large for that. Princess's maps indicate outside sailing for those ships.

 

Now, when their smaller ships do not do the inside passage - that is another story that is yet to be answered.

Edited July 15, 2023 by Coral

[tetleytea]

Well I certainly hope Princess' maps indicate outside sailing now.  That would be really bad if they didn't.  The Discovery Princess is a royal class, so the OP would not be sailing Inside Passage on that sailing--and Inside Passage is one of the best reasons to choose a Vancouver sailing over Seattle.  

 

I last sailed there in 2022, and our itinerary clearly showed us sailing the Inside Passage.  It was only when we saw open ocean on one side that we were like, "Hey, wait a minute...".   That's when we found out, "Canada won't let us sail the ship inside; it's not our fault."    And Princess just now found that out?   How do you not know how big your ship is before you ever first sail that itinerary?

 

Edited July 15, 2023 by tetleytea

[Coral]

16 minutes ago, tetleytea said:

Well I certainly hope Princess' maps indicate outside sailing now.  That would be really bad if they didn't.  The Discovery Princess is a royal class, so the OP would not be sailing Inside Passage on that sailing--and Inside Passage is one of the best reasons to choose a Vancouver sailing over Seattle.  

 

I last sailed there in 2022, and our itinerary clearly showed us sailing the Inside Passage.  It was only when we saw open ocean on one side that we were like, "Hey, wait a minute...".   That's when we found out, "Canada won't let us sail the ship inside; it's not our fault."    And Princess just now found that out?   How do you not know how big your ship is before you ever first sail that itinerary?

 

I just looked at Discovery and it is marked appropriately:

 

[rwmiller]

Koningsdam is a wonderful ship and HAL is an expert with Alaska as they were the first to go there. Less people mean shorter lines. In addition, HAL is more adult focused so they will take care of you and your parents. 
 

Bob

[Heidi13]

On 7/15/2023 at 12:27 PM, Aquahound said:

 

Yeah, Princess' new ships are too big to cruise the IP.  If I remember the story correctly, Princess planned those itineraries but were denied by the Canadian pilots.  

 

Princess went cheap on the propulsion system on this class. I recall the Alaska Pilots comparing their handling to that of the old twin screw, single rudder ships.

 

From memory, I believe she has 2 fixed props and 2 small spade rudders. Therefore, her slow speed handling is poor, as is her response to the rudders. I believe the Bridge poster puts min speed at 4 kts, but a number of pilots suggest they are sluggish even at 7 kts.

 

They could probably get through Seymour Narrows at slack tide, but then would have issues at Race/Current Passage and Blackfish Sound, in a good current.

 

I can't imagine any pilot wanting to take that class of ship with the size and poor handling through Johnstone Strait.

[Coral]

3 minutes ago, Heidi13 said:

 

Princess went cheap on the propulsion system on this class. I recall the Alaska Pilots comparing their handling to that of the old twin screw, single rudder ships.

 

From memory, I believe she has 2 fixed props and 2 small spade rudders. Therefore, her slow speed handling is poor, as is her response to the rudders. I believe the Bridge poster puts min speed at 4 kts, but a number of pilots suggest they are sluggish even at 7 kts.

 

They could probably get through Seymour Narrows at slack tide, but then would have issues at Race/Current Passage and Blackfish Sound, in a good current.

 

I can't imagine any pilot wanting to take that class of ship with the size and poor handling through Johnstone Strait.

Question - is there a time frame where ships need to enter and exit the inside passage area East of Vancouver Island.

 

A friend was on NCL Spirit and was told their Southbound cruise would not do the inside passage (they found out months earlier) due to the time constraints necessary to travel in this area. Something about 7.5 hours.....? Any insight on this.

[Heidi13]

22 hours ago, tetleytea said:

Well I certainly hope Princess' maps indicate outside sailing now.  That would be really bad if they didn't.  The Discovery Princess is a royal class, so the OP would not be sailing Inside Passage on that sailing--and Inside Passage is one of the best reasons to choose a Vancouver sailing over Seattle.  

 

I last sailed there in 2022, and our itinerary clearly showed us sailing the Inside Passage.  It was only when we saw open ocean on one side that we were like, "Hey, wait a minute...".   That's when we found out, "Canada won't let us sail the ship inside; it's not our fault."    And Princess just now found that out?   How do you not know how big your ship is before you ever first sail that itinerary?

 

 

It wasn't Canada, it was the BC Coast Pilots and the primary reason is the ship's poor handling characteristics. The ship does not have Azipods, or my preference of CP Props and large High-Lift (Becker type) rudders.

[Heidi13]

Just now, Coral said:

Question - is there a time frame where ships need to enter and exit the inside passage area East of Vancouver Island.

 

A friend was on NCL Spirit and was told their Southbound cruise would not do the inside passage (they found out months earlier) due to the time constraints necessary to travel in this area. Something about 7.5 hours.....? Any insight on this.

 

The only time restraint I know of is the slack water restriction for cruise ships at seymour Narrows. Seymour is about 100 n/mls from Vancouver and the current can be over 16 kts. The pilots will use +/- 1 hr from HWS or LWS. Departing Vancouver they set a speed for Seymour Narrows and once clear, set a new speed for the destination.

 

Coming southbound, there are 2 options I have used for entering Johnstone Strait. Back in my cruise ship days we always used Blackfish Sound, which can have a good current running (not as bad as Seymour) and it has a couple of turns. I have also come through Alert Bay, but recall one day getting caught in the tide and struggling to stay off the beach, probably why most pilots use Blackfish.

 

Even in my cruise ship days, our speed upon departure southbound was set for Seymour, so we went through Blackfish at any state of tide. Therefore, I have never seen or experienced any time restrictions coming southbound.

 

When departing Vancouver, not sailing the inside Passage will take longer, as from Vancouver to Brotchie Ledge, where you drop the pilot just off Victoria, is about 100 miles and the ship still has to transit Juan de Fuca before heading up the Pacific.

 

I'll suggest the alleged time constraints was nothing more than a convenient excuse. 

[Coral]

33 minutes ago, Heidi13 said:

 

The only time restraint I know of is the slack water restriction for cruise ships at seymour Narrows. Seymour is about 100 n/mls from Vancouver and the current can be over 16 kts. The pilots will use +/- 1 hr from HWS or LWS. Departing Vancouver they set a speed for Seymour Narrows and once clear, set a new speed for the destination.

 

Coming southbound, there are 2 options I have used for entering Johnstone Strait. Back in my cruise ship days we always used Blackfish Sound, which can have a good current running (not as bad as Seymour) and it has a couple of turns. I have also come through Alert Bay, but recall one day getting caught in the tide and struggling to stay off the beach, probably why most pilots use Blackfish.

 

Even in my cruise ship days, our speed upon departure southbound was set for Seymour, so we went through Blackfish at any state of tide. Therefore, I have never seen or experienced any time restrictions coming southbound.

 

When departing Vancouver, not sailing the inside Passage will take longer, as from Vancouver to Brotchie Ledge, where you drop the pilot just off Victoria, is about 100 miles and the ship still has to transit Juan de Fuca before heading up the Pacific.

 

I'll suggest the alleged time constraints was nothing more than a convenient excuse. 

I appreciate your explanation! Thanks for sharing your knowledge on these boards. Extremely helpful. 🙂 

[GTJ]

2 hours ago, Heidi13 said:

Princess went cheap on the propulsion system on this class. I recall the Alaska Pilots comparing their handling to that of the old twin screw, single rudder ships.

Do the various brands have the autonomy to specify their own vessels, or is Carnival treating the Princess brand differently than its other brands when acquiring new vessels? Ordinarily I would expect some centralization and standardization among the brands.

[Heidi13]

57 minutes ago, GTJ said:

Do the various brands have the autonomy to specify their own vessels, or is Carnival treating the Princess brand differently than its other brands when acquiring new vessels? Ordinarily I would expect some centralization and standardization among the brands.

 

I've been retired for over 10 yrs and everyone I worked with, or knew has also retired, so I don't have any current contacts.

 

However, a number of years ago, I attended a meeting with a Carnival Corp Senior VP and s/he mentioned that each brand considers the other Carnival brands as their primary competition. Each of the brands at that time, also determined their own operational standards, with Princess/Cunard/P&O developing exceptional Bridge Team Command & Control (BTCC) procedures. Other brands, including Costa, didn't use them.

 

After the Costa Concordia, they did standardise some operations with all brands having to use the BTCC.

 

With respect to Engineering, I believe they do have a Corporate Engineering group, but each brand probably has latitude in developing new tonnage for their pax mix. The low speed handling issues are most likely that they went cheap on propulsion - fixed pitch props & under sized spade rudders.

[donaldsc]

I have not read many of the responses so someone may have already made this point but if the cruise does not do Glacier Bay do not take it.  There are other cruises that say that they will take you to glaciers but they often do not get in because of sea conditions or other issues.  You will always get into Glacier Bay.   Also if you feel that your dad can handle a one way cruise take one that ends in Whittier.  The Prince William Sound entry into Whittier is spectacular.

 

DON

[Winderdawg]

On 7/14/2023 at 9:42 AM, quack2 said:

Avoid NCL in/out of Vancouver.  Notwithstanding their cruise map that shows otherwise, NCL avoids the east side of Vancouver Island.

That isn't always the case.  We were on the NCL Jewel 7/3/23 sailing and we sailed through the Seymour Narrows.

[Winderdawg]

On 7/16/2023 at 6:17 PM, Coral said:

Question - is there a time frame where ships need to enter and exit the inside passage area East of Vancouver Island.

 

A friend was on NCL Spirit and was told their Southbound cruise would not do the inside passage (they found out months earlier) due to the time constraints necessary to travel in this area. Something about 7.5 hours.....? Any insight on this.

Edit: I see someone already answered your question.

 

It has to do with flow through the narrows.  If the flow is not going in your direction, they will not allow you to enter.  We only found this out because there was a medical debarkation on our southbound trip and we missed the original window for us to enter the Seymour Narrows.  The ship waited for our next window and were about 5 hours late arriving in Vancouver.

Edited July 18, 2023 by Winderdawg
add more context

[Heidi13]

5 hours ago, Winderdawg said:

Edit: I see someone already answered your question.

 

It has to do with flow through the narrows.  If the flow is not going in your direction, they will not allow you to enter.  We only found this out because there was a medical debarkation on our southbound trip and we missed the original window for us to enter the Seymour Narrows.  The ship waited for our next window and were about 5 hours late arriving in Vancouver.

 

Sorry, but that isn't even close to being factual.

 

When navigating narrow channels, especially with big turns, going with the current is more challenging, as the ship is less manoeuvrable, than steaming against the current. With hundreds of transits through Seymour, in all tidal conditions, my most challenging was southbound at full speed (20 kts) with a 16.5 kt flood. Since the flood flows south and the ebb north, we were running with the current.

 

The Seymour standard for the BC Coast Pilots when I was working was transit at LWS/HWS +/- 1 hr. If you miss that window the ship waits until 1 hr before the next slack water, regardless if it is flooding or ebbing.

 

There is nobody that will prohibit the ship from entering Seymour. The decision is taken onboard during discussions with the BC Coast Pilot and the vessel's Master. The BC Coast Pilot has metrics they use and the Master has to comply with the company Safety Management System.

[Panhandle Couple]

On 7/14/2023 at 2:02 AM, justletmecruiseok said:

Thank you all @Coral @TPgal @Heidi13 @GTJ @quack2 @Oakman58 @tetleytea @Aquahound for such thoughtful feedback! Here's what I've learned from your comments and additional research:

 

• For Alaska, port times/itinerary matter more than ship amenities
• Vancouver departures tend to have better itineraries and longer port times than Seattle
• I should think more critically about what dad's experience will be like with a disability (e.g. I thought he'd love an aft view, but it didn't occur to me that an aft cabin would make getting around more onerous on a daily basis)

 

Some additional info/ answers to your questions:

 

• The core goal for this trip is to spend time together trying something new. As such, dad's needs come before ours. 
• We can only do roundtrip from Seattle or Vancouver. Flying is challenging for dad due to his disability; anything non-direct would be too much for him. Unfortunately, there are no direct flights from dad's city to the Alaska ports one-way itineraries arrive to/ depart from.
• Due to work, we're limited to weekend departures

 

So given all this, I no longer think NCL is a great fit. When I looked at the docks in detail, I realized we'd have to take shuttles in all the ports: Skagway (in order to pass the rock slide area), Ketchikan (Ward Cove is 5 miles away), and Juneau (the tram, as AJ dock is a mile away). The thought of trying to help dad onto a shuttle while thousands of others do the same sounds stressful (please correct me if I'm blowing this out of proportion). Additionally, NCL's short/awkward port times would limit some of our port activities, which should theoretically be among the trip's highlights. And there is no inside passage.

 

All of which is to say, I went back to the drawing board and after comparing many lines, itineraries, port times, docks etc, I found two that might fit better:

 

1. Discovery Princess - RT from Seattle visiting Juneau (1-10), Skagway (7-830), Glacier Bay (6-3), Ketchikan (7-1) and Victoria (7-midnight, meaning we could squeeze the garden in)
2. HAL Koningsdam - RT from Vancouver visiting the same ports (minus Victoria) with almost identical port times (except Ketchikan is 11am-7pm)

 

Main differences are:

 

• Departure city - Seattle is a shorter travel day since it's domestic, it's also more convenient as we have friends there
• Size - K'dam is 2650 guests vs 3660 on Discovery
• Ports - The Ketchikan & Victoria differences above
• Inside passage - K'dam cruises the inside passage both ways, while Discovery takes the ocean one way and the inside passage the other.
• Docks - K'dam docks are almost all closer to the center of town than Discovery. Discovery also has a shuttle in Skagway

 

Between the two itineraries, I think K'dam may be the better fit. It's smaller, has better port times, closer docks (I don't think any would require a shuttle), and it spends more time in the Inside Passage. Of course, Discovery's Seattle departure would be logistically easier for dad that K'dam's Vancover, but it seems like the benefits of K'dam would be greater. What do you all think? Also, what other smaller ships might I consider? (new to cruising, so just don't know!)

 

Again, a massive thank you to you all for helping me problem solve this!

Well, my advise is don't over think this.

This will be your FIRST cruise and first Alaska cruise.  Chances are it won't be "perfect".  Alaska weather even in the summer can be cooler, rainier and foggier.  Your "perfect port times" maybe in a bank of fog, or in very high winds.  Or drizzling rain.  Or all 3, with sudden clearing and sunlight for 3 hours.

Your "close dock" in Ketchikan could still be almost a mile away from where you want to go. With 3 other ships worth of people in the way.  Many tours are now also leaving from Ward Cove.  NCL have also added double decker buses to town, meaning less waiting on either end.

 

In Juneau, the main attraction is Mendenhall Glacier, a 12 mile drive from the dock area, which will always require a paid excursion and shuttle.   All excursions should have a limited mobility option.  There might also be local excursions that will accommodate you.  The Roberts Tramway does give great views, but all areas outside the immediate building on top are hiking trails, not good for limited mobility.

 

 

But my main opinion (and I sailed the Bliss (2019), sister to Encore, and Princess Discovery last year, both later in the season than June, is the ship layout.

 

Encore has the Observation lounge and deck 8 for outdoor viewing and relaxing.  Neither of the other 2 ships has that, and you can't change their configuration.  For nice weather, deck 8 (which also has outdoor bars and wind blocks) and for not so good weather, the observation lounge.  Both are great for people with mobility problems.   I would book a deck 15 forward room with short access to OL, (and elevators) which also has continental breakfast, and daytime snacks.  Buffet is 1 deck above, and also has good views from the windows there.

 

Discovery Princess doesn't have either of these, and main viewing areas are the top deck, subject to wind and rain.  If you RT from Seattle, day 6 on the way back WILL be very windy and rough.  An indoor day for most.  We also thought the buffet area seating on DP was too small and clogged the main walkways to/from the aft elevators.  Not good for wheelchairs.   The aft MDR is hard to get to, and Princess doesn't do freestyle dining, meaning early or late reservations needed for the entire cruise which may or may not fit your port plans.  Overall, the DP is focused inside the ship, while Encore can be both inside and outside.  The balcony's on DP are also very narrow, the tightest we have seen, I doubt a wheelchair can be used there.

 

Since you are looking at June 2024, realize daylight is long.  In Juneau on 15 June, sunrise is 3:51 AM, and sunset is 10:05 PM.  Leaving dock at 11 PM is not that restricting.  Juneau really only has 3 or 4 blocks on the main street as the tourist area.  The pickup area to shuttle to the NCL ship is at the end of that area, across the street.  There is a restriction on the number of ships in port at one time, which is why NCL splits its dock time between 2 ships.  At least 1 cruise line (last year) still tenders there. 

 

Skagway is a long story, but a short version.  A large landslide into the railroad dock area in 2022 caused a major disruption to all the large ships going there. Many were diverted to ISP and Sitka.

In 2023, the work around is to bus people from the aft dock section past the landslide area into town, roughly 300 yards or so.  The forward dock section uses tenders to get people into another dock.  No one knows what will be the scheme for 2024, even the town, as they are seeking state and federal money to help with the situation in the off season.  I don't know if Alaska has even worked out the port schedules for 2024 yet.  What you see on line (for all cruise lines) may just be an extension of today's plan, or wishful guessing.  Unless you are booking a smaller ship (that uses the 2 smaller docks on the other side of the port) you are not getting any guarantee of a simple walk on- walk off there. 

 

As for pricing, you will have to use Princess Plus to get the equivalent of NCL free at sea package.

 

[disneyochem]

I have cruised in Alaska on all three—Princess, NCL, HAL.  Earlier posters have given you some great advice and information about the differences between these cruise lines.  I personally will never cruise on NCL again (five total Alaskan cruises with them) but my needs/interests are different from yours!

 

We also really enjoy aft balconies but we’ve become fans of midship cabins!  Hubby tweaked his knee golfing prior to our cruises this summer.  In the past, we had no problem walking the length of the ship from the aft section.  This year, hubby struggled with the distance!  So much so that we changed cabins on the next cruise (it was a B2B) to midship.   It was much easier on those 60-year old knees!

 

What nobody has discussed yet (and deserves to be a part of the decision-making process) is the onboard Alaskan themed activities.  On Princess and Holland America, you know you are cruising in Alaska!  There are enrichment talks (wildlife, culture, geology), naturalists on board, totem carving (Princess), live animals on certain ports (sled dog puppies, raptors), special drinks featuring Alaskan spirits, Alaskan beer tastings, Alaskan food in the MDR (the Alaska trout on the Majestic last month was fantastic!), films highlighting Alaska, Alaskan trivia and many arts/crafts.  On an NCL ship, you would not even know you were in Alaska unless you looked outside!  (And yes, I have recent experience—this summer).  I really feel that these onboard activities enhance the whole Alaskan experience—you are in Alaska for the entire cruise!

[HelCat]

I am in a somewhat similar situation. I want to do Alaska next June and I have narrowed it down to NCL Encore and Discovery Princess. I they have the same itineraries. My husband and I are in our late 40’s. But we are traveling with two people in their 20’s. I think they would enjoy NCL more since there are more things to do on board. Princess tends to have an older crowd so they will probably be bored. 
 

However, the ward cove situation with NCL really annoys me. It’s about 15-20 minutes by shuttle each way so less time in Ketchikan and that doesn’t include how long you will have to wait to get on the shuttle. Princess is right there in town which will be much easier for your father.

 

Also, in Juneau, NCL docks at the last pier which I think is a 15 minute walk. Im not sure if there is a shuttle. Princess again is right in town. 
 

I don’t know about the dock situation in Skagway.

 

So I think in my case the ship experience would be better on NCL but the port experience would be better on Princess. If I were going with my parents who are in their 70’s (my dad has bad knees so he can’t walk too far), I would pick Princess since the ports are more convenient. 
 

As for me, maybe I’ll let the younger ones decide.

[Heidi13]

1 hour ago, HelCat said:

I am in a somewhat similar situation. I want to do Alaska next June and I have narrowed it down to NCL Encore and Discovery Princess. I they have the same itineraries. My husband and I are in our late 40’s. But we are traveling with two people in their 20’s. I think they would enjoy NCL more since there are more things to do on board. Princess tends to have an older crowd so they will probably be bored. 

 

In the 1970/80's, when I worked for Princess, I'll agree the pax were definitely an older crowd, but on our last 1/2 dozen Princess cruises to Alaska, that was not our experience. 

[Panhandle Couple]

2 hours ago, HelCat said:

I am in a somewhat similar situation. I want to do Alaska next June and I have narrowed it down to NCL Encore and Discovery Princess. I they have the same itineraries. My husband and I are in our late 40’s. But we are traveling with two people in their 20’s. I think they would enjoy NCL more since there are more things to do on board. Princess tends to have an older crowd so they will probably be bored. 
 

However, the ward cove situation with NCL really annoys me. It’s about 15-20 minutes by shuttle each way so less time in Ketchikan and that doesn’t include how long you will have to wait to get on the shuttle. Princess is right there in town which will be much easier for your father.

 

Also, in Juneau, NCL docks at the last pier which I think is a 15 minute walk. Im not sure if there is a shuttle. Princess again is right in town. 
 

I don’t know about the dock situation in Skagway.

 

So I think in my case the ship experience would be better on NCL but the port experience would be better on Princess. If I were going with my parents who are in their 70’s (my dad has bad knees so he can’t walk too far), I would pick Princess since the ports are more convenient. 
 

As for me, maybe I’ll let the younger ones decide.

We were on Discovery Princess last year in late Aug.

At Ketchikan I think we were at berth 3, which is the farthest north of town.

We did a Canoe and Jeep excursion which drove us past Ward Cove and up to a glacial lake.  I don't recall it being 15-20 minutes just to get to Ward Cove. 5-6 miles at 40 mph...only a couple of red lights.  More excursions are picking up in Ward Cove also.

 

I don't know what port times Princess is saying for next year, but here is the port schedule I found.  NCL and Princess look very similar to me for Juneau, Ketchikan and Skagway.

https://claalaska.com/?page_id=1551

 

For Juneau, there is a shuttle to from the tourist area.  NCL dock is actually next to the others, there is a fenced  private property with water access (unfortunately a scrap yard) that will not let anyone cross, causing you to walk or shuttle around it.  Shuttle is every 10 minutes or so after initial  disembarking. 

 

In June it will be schools out, and many families traveling.  I would guess all age groups will be on most ships.

 

[Coral]

10 hours ago, HelCat said:

I am in a somewhat similar situation. I want to do Alaska next June and I have narrowed it down to NCL Encore and Discovery Princess. I they have the same itineraries. My husband and I are in our late 40’s. But we are traveling with two people in their 20’s. I think they would enjoy NCL more since there are more things to do on board. Princess tends to have an older crowd so they will probably be bored. 

I started sailing Princess in my 20's. I was never bored. I do pick itineraries with a lot of port days.

 

Alaska sometimes overall has an older crowd.

 

I have known too many people who have sailed on NCL and will never again. I personally have avoided the line due to friend's bad experiences with the line. Not that any line is perfect.

 

I agree with @disneyochem. Princess (and I am assuming HAL but I haven't sailed them recently) do an excellent job with enrichment speakers (multiple) and Alaska events on the ship. On my RCCL - they did shopping and that was it. My friend who sailed NCL recently said nothing was done. Our speakers were amazing on Princess this last time.

Edited July 20, 2023 by Coral

[HelCat]

@Panhandle Couple How did you like Discovery Princess?  Would you recommend it?  
 

And thanks for the info and the port schedule!

[dave_k58]

On 7/15/2023 at 2:27 PM, Aquahound said:

 

Yeah, Princess' new ships are too big to cruise the IP.  If I remember the story correctly, Princess planned those itineraries but were denied by the Canadian pilots.  

Is the Crown too big for the Inside Passage?