When ‘Free at Sea’ is not Free at At Sea

[Ellaleah]

1 hour ago, BunnyHutt said:

I’m trying to figure out how much you all drink, resulting in a tax bill breaking you after paying several thousands of dollars on a vacation. On a port-intensive cruise like the Med, I’m guessing I’ll be looking at averaging maybe $10/day - or $100, give or take, for my planned trip next year. 

I believe this to be the NCL business model.  Let them think they are getting a rock bottom price with all the add-ons included and they won’t see it coming!

[macattack1111]

I believe these are the facts.....RCI..Celebrity...MSC....Costa  and any other major cruise line are charging VAT and Gratuity for any drink purchased if that said person does not have a drinks package in the  European ports mentioned in earlier threads...but if they do have a drinks package they are not being charged anything extra...as they have payed a all inclusive price precruise or at the beginning of their cruise.

 

NCL on the other hand are charging vat and gratuity not only to passengers who dont have a drinks package but to every passenger who does have a drinks package racking up a possible hefty extra price when they believed that there was nothing else to pay as they had prepayed for a drinks package.

The crux of the matter is no one had been informed of these extra charges when booking the cruise.

and only found out about this once onboard.

I think the top Brass at NCL in Miami  have made a major boo boo and I hope some Lawyer comes along and says what they have done is illegal and thousands of passengers make a claim against them to get their VAT back....Otherwise someone please correct me if Im wrong.

[Alba1]

6 hours ago, Capitan Obvious said:

 

 

 

"Show me, show me, show me...while you may think this is clever, it merely demonstrates the fact that you're either too lazy or simply unable to find information on your own.

 

Here are the very terms and conditions that you claimed to be very familiar with:

 

 

 

Defending the tax? Hardly. I've said nothing in favor or in support of the tax. I'm just pointing out that your alleged anger is misdirected as you somehow seem to believe that NCL is taxing you. 

 

I know that you only recently created this new screen name so you could argue, but is your argument really so weak that you've dropped to the "you must be an employee" diversion? By your logic, can we all assume that the only reason for your posts is that you secretly work for NCL's competition?

🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣 calm down. 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣 you seem more upset about it than me and you were not even on the cruise. 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

 

Again,  fully aware of terms and conditions and a possible 10% tax if in Spanish waters or ports.

We were in France and Italy so we were not near Spanish Waters or Ports.

 

20% tax added on all inclusive  drinks and only told about it once onboard.

Customer Services could not tell us and did not know what it was for or why it was only on the Epic and only started the 25th Sep.

Passengers on the ship prior to the 25th Sep were not charged this tax but had this added tax added on for their second week of their cruise after the 25th and were not notified or given a reason for it.

 

It was our first NCL cruise and we enjoyed the ship, the food and entertainment etc onboard very much Just don't like being ripped off. 🤷‍♂️

 

It's never happened with any other cruise line we have sailed with so it will put us off booking with NCL again for the time being.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Panhandle Couple]

4 hours ago, macattack1111 said:

I believe these are the facts.....RCI..Celebrity...MSC....Costa  and any other major cruise line are charging VAT and Gratuity for any drink purchased if that said person does not have a drinks package in the  European ports mentioned in earlier threads...but if they do have a drinks package they are not being charged anything extra...as they have payed a all inclusive price precruise or at the beginning of their cruise.

 

NCL on the other hand are charging vat and gratuity not only to passengers who dont have a drinks package but to every passenger who does have a drinks package racking up a possible hefty extra price when they believed that there was nothing else to pay as they had prepayed for a drinks package.

The crux of the matter is no one had been informed of these extra charges when booking the cruise.

and only found out about this once onboard.

I think the top Brass at NCL in Miami  have made a major boo boo and I hope some Lawyer comes along and says what they have done is illegal and thousands of passengers make a claim against them to get their VAT back....Otherwise someone please correct me if Im wrong.

But other threads have looked at the price on NCL competitors. With the added crew gratuities, NCL is about $26/day.  The other lines charge 65-85/day.  Their "built in price" assumes a LOT of taxes, or simply makes more money.

 

Princess now has 3 level pricing to get the drink package and "premium desserts".  Well over their click bait advertised entry level pricing.

 

Carnival and MSC now charge for extra entrees in the MDR.

 

RCL prices are climbing, their CEO has stated on camera that their intent is to charge as much as they can.  Their own stock reports state that they make 70 extra cents per base dollar.  NCL is at 50 cents.  I'm too lazy to see what CCL is claiming.

[steamboats]

1 hour ago, Panhandle Couple said:

But other threads have looked at the price on NCL competitors. With the added crew gratuities, NCL is about $26/day.  The other lines charge 65-85/day.  Their "built in price" assumes a LOT of taxes, or simply makes more money.

 

The Unlimited Open Bar Package is 109 USD/day (plus 20%), the Premium Plus Beverage Package is 138 USD/day (plus 20%) - if you don´t have Free At Sea (at least those were the last prices I saw).

 

And it´s not about add in any gratuities or VAT it´s simply that the taxable purchase is the purchase of the package and not the order of a single drink (as you can´t tax an amount of 0).

 

steamboats

[Capitan Obvious]

4 hours ago, Alba1 said:

🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣 calm down. 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣 you seem more upset about it than me and you were not even on the cruise. 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

 

Again,  fully aware of terms and conditions and a possible 10% tax if in Spanish waters or ports.

We were in France and Italy so we were not near Spanish Waters or Ports.

 

20% tax added on all inclusive  drinks and only told about it once onboard.

Customer Services could not tell us and did not know what it was for or why it was only on the Epic and only started the 25th Sep.

Passengers on the ship prior to the 25th Sep were not charged this tax but had this added tax added on for their second week of their cruise after the 25th and were not notified or given a reason for it.

 

It was our first NCL cruise and we enjoyed the ship, the food and entertainment etc onboard very much Just don't like being ripped off. 🤷‍♂️

 

It's never happened with any other cruise line we have sailed with so it will put us off booking with NCL again for the time being.

 

Right. You're so eager to argue that your posting before you can even type your reply, and I need to calm down.

 

Physican, heal thyself (but you might want to read the medical thread first).

 

You again attempt to divert/deceive by claiming to be aware of the T&Cs when you are clearly not. You keep mentioning Spanish waters and only being in Frace and Italy. Did you see something in the T&Cs that led you to believe that ONLY Spain could impose a tax? Is it your position that France, Italy, and tbh any other country on the planet does not have the authority to impose and collect a tax?

 

So you weren't told about the tax until you were onboard. So what? It isn't NCL's job to research the tax laws of multiple countries for the purpose of briefing you.

 

You went on a cruise and "enjoyed the ship, the food and entertainment etc onboard very much". Great. Don't be foolish enought to let the fact that a country legally taxed you ruin that. Your anger is misdirected. You should have created an account on France Critic or Italian Critic. In the here and now you're just shooting the messenger...mostly because they didn't up the price so you could be taxed without even being aware. 🙄

[HowardK]

They need to just do all in one pricing and quit with this "free"nonsense. The ship is going to have to stock the alcohol regardless, its a sunken cost.  I am paying to go on a cruise, I don't see why I should have to pay more for someone to serve me a coke vs water vs beer, they are getting salaries.

- and believe me I tip individuals because I think NCL robs them. 

[RocketMan275]

15 minutes ago, HowardK said:

They need to just do all in one pricing and quit with this "free"nonsense. The ship is going to have to stock the alcohol regardless, its a sunken cost.  I am paying to go on a cruise, I don't see why I should have to pay more for someone to serve me a coke vs water vs beer, they are getting salaries.

- and believe me I tip individuals because I think NCL robs them. 

Do you have any idea of the consternation all in one pricing would cause?

How many complaints of "I don't drink, why should I have to subsidize someone who does."

[BunnyHutt]

1 hour ago, steamboats said:

 

The Unlimited Open Bar Package is 109 USD/day (plus 20%), the Premium Plus Beverage Package is 138 USD/day (plus 20%) - if you don´t have Free At Sea (at least those were the last prices I saw).

 

And it´s not about add in any gratuities or VAT it´s simply that the taxable purchase is the purchase of the package and not the order of a single drink (as you can´t tax an amount of 0).

 

steamboats

The same methodology is used when ships are in taxable US ports. Tax is calculated, and charged, based upon the menu price of the drink as it is being consumed. Granted, I’ve only been on this particular board a year or so, but I don’t see anyone up in arms about that?

Again, how much are you all drinking that a 20% drink tax is breaking you financially? 🤯 I’m coming out ahead being charged tax per drink versus if I were taxed on the price of the package. Especially given the fact that Mediterranean cruises are so port-intensive. 

 

[steamboats]

@BunnyHutt actually in Europe you are taxed in the price of the package too. So when I book a cruise with the Free At Sea package I already pay VAT for both (I might not see it as the VAT has to be included in the price tag).

 

It's not about that we all her broke paying this extra VAT but especially we Europeans are Not used to pay taxes added to the price tag. Plus we so book a package to have all included and not to worry about any extra cost coming as a surprise.

 

Plus the other thing is whether this practice is correct (as no other US cruise line is doing this in Europeans waters).

 

steamboats 

[ontheweb]

9 minutes ago, steamboats said:

@BunnyHutt actually in Europe you are taxed in the price of the package too. So when I book a cruise with the Free At Sea package I already pay VAT for both (I might not see it as the VAT has to be included in the price tag).

 

It's not about that we all her broke paying this extra VAT but especially we Europeans are Not used to pay taxes added to the price tag. Plus we so book a package to have all included and not to worry about any extra cost coming as a surprise.

 

Plus the other thing is whether this practice is correct (as no other US cruise line is doing this in Europeans waters).

 

steamboats 

That does seem to be a cultural difference that is at least partially fueling this discussion. In Europe, generally when you see a price it includes the VAT tax. In the US, at least here in NY State, when you see a price it does not include any applicable sales tax. One is used to paying more at the register than was the merchandise price.

[schmoopie17]

41 minutes ago, BunnyHutt said:

Again, how much are you all drinking that a 20% drink tax is breaking you financially? 

 

So...on our upcoming 12 day Med cruise, Mrs. Schmoopie and I figure a total of 10 drinks between the two of us per day. That's 120 drinks at, say, an average price of $13 per drink...for a total of $1560. At 20%, the tax comes to $312. I agree that if you're shelling out thousands for a cruise, $312 may not seem like a whole lot to some people. And no, it will not break us financially.

 

However, what you're missing is the principal. Prior to September 25th, that charge would not be that amount. When we booked the cruise (many moons ago) we didn't budget for an additional $312 to be added to our onboard account. We typically get off the ship with a zero balance in our account, or very close to it.

 

While you and others consider $312 to be a drop in the bucket after paying big prices to cruise...I'll tell you what. Send me a check for $312 and let's see how miniscule that amount is to you then. After all, it won't break you financially.

Deal?

 

 

Edited October 7, 2023 by schmoopie17

[Capitan Obvious]

All of this angst toward NCL, other posters on Cruise Critic, or both, all over something that is being imposed by the government. Yet no angst being directed to the taxing authority. Why? People too afraid to question the government? Easier to just grab your pitchfork and blame someone else instead?

 

People talk about "the principal" while not having enough of one to deal with the proper authority. Didn't budget for the additional amount? Whose fault is that? (Hint: The person who came up with the budget)

[schmoopie17]

29 minutes ago, Capitan Obvious said:

 

People talk about "the principal" while not having enough of one to deal with the proper authority. Didn't budget for the additional amount? Whose fault is that? (Hint: The person who came up with the budget)

 

Excuse me for the finger failure on the spelling of principle, "Capitan". I happen to know the difference between principal and principle. I also happen to know the difference between a charge that was not charged at the time of booking and is suddenly being charged as of September 25th.

 

So...we're supposed to budget for an unknown/unforeseeable charge? Are we psychic? Should we also budget an extra amount for the inevitable eruption of Vesuvius when we're in Naples? If so, how much do you suggest we budget?

 

Edited October 7, 2023 by schmoopie17

[PollyMurg]

Interesting!

I wonder if anyone will make any comment on the spelling mistake made by Captain Hoydal 🤦‍♀️

[schmoopie17]

I always enjoy "dinning" on cruises.

 

What about "Norwegian.Epic"?

 

At least he used "your" and "you're" correctly.

[IAcruising]

8 minutes ago, schmoopie17 said:

At least he used "your" and "you're" correctly.

 

A long, long time ago, it was pointed out to me that I always used "your" instead of "you're". I became so obsessed with it, that I've caught myself ALWAYS using "you're" even when "your" was correct.

 

Sometimes, you just can't win.

 

[Guest]

I usually travel solo.They have good rates sometimes.I dont do the single cabins.Sail away rates . I am not a drinker and get perks with Latitudes Platinum.

[cruiser2015]

5 hours ago, Capitan Obvious said:

 

Right. You're so eager to argue that your posting before you can even type your reply, and I need to calm down.

 

Physican, heal thyself (but you might want to read the medical thread first).

 

You again attempt to divert/deceive by claiming to be aware of the T&Cs when you are clearly not. You keep mentioning Spanish waters and only being in Frace and Italy. Did you see something in the T&Cs that led you to believe that ONLY Spain could impose a tax? Is it your position that France, Italy, and tbh any other country on the planet does not have the authority to impose and collect a tax?

 

So you weren't told about the tax until you were onboard. So what? It isn't NCL's job to research the tax laws of multiple countries for the purpose of briefing you.

 

You went on a cruise and "enjoyed the ship, the food and entertainment etc onboard very much". Great. Don't be foolish enought to let the fact that a country legally taxed you ruin that. Your anger is misdirected. You should have created an account on France Critic or Italian Critic. In the here and now you're just shooting the messenger...mostly because they didn't up the price so you could be taxed without even being aware. 🙄

Sure there's a general warning in the T&C's about taxes.

However, as of 9/25 there was a policy change by the taxing authorities. So:

A. NCL knew about the change

B. NCL had to program their systems to add the new required taxes and to turn them on/off as necessary

C. As this was a new application, there's no reason why NCL could not have sent an email to all booked passengers on the affected cruises notifying them about the change. Passengers are, in fact, reasonably entitled to be told when something different is going into effect, especially when it may result in fees of hundreds of dollars. Regardless of some posts saying "what's a few hundred when you've paid thousands", some folks do operate on a budget.

[SoloAlaska]

28 minutes ago, schmoopie17 said:

I always enjoy "dinning" on cruises.

 

What about "Norwegian.Epic"?

 

At least he used "your" and "you're" correctly.

Congrats on english being your first (and possibly only) language and never making a typo. Oh and don’t forget you’ve never made a mistake with autocorrect and have lots of extra time to proof read everything repeatedly.

 

I rather see a typo than everything be written using AI like so many professionals are now doing.

[RocketMan275]

58 minutes ago, cruiser2015 said:

Sure there's a general warning in the T&C's about taxes.

However, as of 9/25 there was a policy change by the taxing authorities. So:

A. NCL knew about the change

B. NCL had to program their systems to add the new required taxes and to turn them on/off as necessary

C. As this was a new application, there's no reason why NCL could not have sent an email to all booked passengers on the affected cruises notifying them about the change. Passengers are, in fact, reasonably entitled to be told when something different is going into effect, especially when it may result in fees of hundreds of dollars. Regardless of some posts saying "what's a few hundred when you've paid thousands", some folks do operate on a budget.

All passengers would have found out about the VAT before incurring $100s in fees since they get a receipt with their first drink purchase.   In any event, this change happened after final payment so a cancellation would not be advisable over a few dollars.

[RocketMan275]

3 hours ago, schmoopie17 said:

So...we're supposed to budget for an unknown/unforeseeable charge? Are we psychic? Should we also budget an extra amount for the inevitable eruption of Vesuvius when we're in Naples? If so, how much do you suggest we budget?

All budgets should include a 'management reserve' for unforseen expenses.  

[cruiser2015]

39 minutes ago, RocketMan275 said:

All passengers would have found out about the VAT before incurring $100s in fees since they get a receipt with their first drink purchase.   In any event, this change happened after final payment so a cancellation would not be advisable over a few dollars.

That is completely absurd as any sort of justification.

You indicate that after ordering drink #1, the passenger has been notified. Gee, that's so helpful.

So, if money WAS an issue, they can simply not order any more beverages for the rest of the cruise.

 

Final payment has no relevance, unless you're implying that they should have cancelled the cruise if they were notified. As you say, not an option anyway. But what about the beverage package?  I'll guess that they might have still been able to cancel that FAS feature, if desired, pre-cruise.

 

The main issue here, in my opinion, is not whether the passenger could have cancelled or not.

There was a change by the taxing authorities, NCL clearly knew about it in advance. There's nothing to have prevented them from issuing a notice to those concerned.

 

I agree that NCL is not responsible for the tax and that they do not have to absorb it, regardless of how other lines have handled these taxes.

What baffles me is that I cannot imagine why you stubbornly defend NCL on this. It's a matter of a simple courtesy to their customers.

[RocketMan275]

11 minutes ago, cruiser2015 said:

That is completely absurd as any sort of justification.

You indicate that after ordering drink #1, the passenger has been notified. Gee, that's so helpful.

So, if money WAS an issue, they can simply not order any more beverages for the rest of the cruise.

 

Final payment has no relevance, unless you're implying that they should have cancelled the cruise if they were notified. As you say, not an option anyway. But what about the beverage package?  I'll guess that they might have still been able to cancel that FAS feature, if desired, pre-cruise.

 

The main issue here, in my opinion, is not whether the passenger could have cancelled or not.

There was a change by the taxing authorities, NCL clearly knew about it in advance. There's nothing to have prevented them from issuing a notice to those concerned.

 

I agree that NCL is not responsible for the tax and that they do not have to absorb it, regardless of how other lines have handled these taxes.

What baffles me is that I cannot imagine why you stubbornly defend NCL on this. It's a matter of a simple courtesy to their customers.

I'm not trying to justify anything, just pointing out some facts.

  

Yes, after drink #1, the passenger should have been aware of the VAT.  At that point there was no reason for any passenger to be surprised by VAT charges.  At that point the only options open to the passengers was to pay the tax or to cut back on drinks.  You may not like those options, but those ar all there were.

 

Final payment is relevant since this change happened  too late for anyone to cancel.

 

 

Edited October 7, 2023 by RocketMan275

[Phoenixon]

16 minutes ago, RocketMan275 said:

I'm not trying to justify anything, just pointing out some facts.

  

Yes, after drink #1, the passenger should have been aware of the VAT.  At that point there was no reason for any passenger to be surprised by VAT charges.  At that point the only options open to the passengers was to pay the tax or to cut back on drinks.  You may not like those options, but those ar all there were.

 

Final payment is relevant since this change happened  too late for anyone to cancel.

 

 

 

Do you think there's anything that NCL could improve upon to better communicate these changes to passengers or is letting them find out on their first bill the best they can do?