Open Letter to Celebrity: I'm Extremely Disappointed with how your staff handled our multiracial family at check in.

[wahooker]

5 minutes ago, soapbxking said:

Kudos for Celebrity taking this issue seriously  This was my area of expertise for almost 28 years(deling with sex offenders and victims of such).  People should stop whining and live within the rules.  yes i understand delays etc, but if proper rules are followed i have no issue.

We followed every rule posted on their website regarding required documentation.   This wasn't a rule, it was made up BS on the spot.

[wrk2cruise]

15 minutes ago, wahooker said:

We followed every rule posted on their website regarding required documentation.   This wasn't a rule, it was made up BS on the spot.

 

Correct.  Whatever triggered the suspicion (right or wrong) all they had to do was exercise a bit of extra scrutiny on the required documents (passports and Xpress Pass).   This could have been done without asking a single question.

[Torfamm]

21 minutes ago, soapbxking said:

Kudos for Celebrity taking this issue seriously  This was my area of expertise for almost 28 years(deling with sex offenders and victims of such).  People should stop whining and live within the rules.  yes i understand delays etc, but if proper rules are followed i have no issue.

There is no requirement to carry adoption papers to travel on a cruise ship with a child who has the same last name as the parents. The problem here is that rules were not followed and neither the staff nor two supervisors seemed to understand the rules.

 

I can remember being stopped at a checkpoint heading back to school in Miami during the Mariel boat lift and having an official ask a friend for his citizenship papers after we’d all been asked where we were born and he answered Cuba. There’s no way any normal person would carry that document with them for a day at the beach or even that a student would have in with them at college. 
 

This situation was just as absurd.

 

 

 

 

[flviking]

As I'm so certain this could only be about protecting children I wonder why we haven't heard about background checks for all passengers to assure there are no sex offenders on board.

 

My sister and BIL adopted three young girls to join their family of four. The bigotry so often directed at them as a multiracial family was amazing and appalling.  She got so tired of it her stock response became "i have five children who have four different fathers who are not all the same race or ethnicity. Do you have anything else to say?"  Every "concerned" bigot then walked away.

 

Hopefully the family can get some legal help to remind Celebrity of these children's civil rights.

[d9704011]

Just now, flviking said:

As I'm so certain this could only be about protecting children I wonder why we haven't heard about background checks for all passengers to assure there are no sex offenders on board.

If cruise lines start down this path, what about....

 

Oh, never mind.

[Itchy&Scratchy]

1 hour ago, CruiseRQA said:

 But was it racially motivated? 

well, let's see. There were other children of the same age, but of the same color as the parents, who were NOT questioned about their origins. Was it racially motivated?

Edited December 31, 2023 by Itchy&Scratchy

[hcat]

15 hours ago, Itchy&Scratchy said:

I don't think he is looking for a free cruise. He wants more training and common sense for the land crew.

sorry.. that idea was in  post 67 ( ?) by

PINBOY.. I should have been clear abt that being his suggestion not the parties who were profiled!

[bEwAbG]

If not overtly racially motivated, it's a textbook example of unconscious bias at the very least.

[grandgeezer]

Think about it, if you wanted to get one person from point A to point B for the purpose of using that person for sex, would you use several other people and do it by using a cruise ship to do it? Think of the cost, depending on the room category, and number of rooms needed, you are probably talking over $10k. How long would it take to get a return on your investment?

Anybody that even had a hand in this should be fired no matter who they worked for.

[Pinboy]

34 minutes ago, Itchy&Scratchy said:

Was it racially motivated?

The answer is YES-- End of story---

All the Agent had to do was ask the youngster " Are these your parents ? ".

Celebrity, for Public Relations purposes should do the Right Thing. ( see Post #67 ).

No " Task forces",---- No " Studies " ---- No " Let us check with the Port Authorities "---- No " We'll get back to you within 6 months " --- None of that crap--

Just do it !!

 

 

 

  

 

 

[CruiseRQA]

1 hour ago, Itchy&Scratchy said:

well, let's see. There were other children of the same age, but of the same color as the parents, who were NOT questioned about their origins. Was it racially motivated?

Keep in mind that the goal is to protect minors from sexually trafficking.   If the workers were racist wouldn't they have tried to protect the white kids and not the child of color?   We don't know what the workers were trained to look for.   I don't think any of us are experts on this.   Maybe it is known that children of color accompanied by white adults are 10x more likely to be trafficked?  In that case it would be appropriate to be more judicious in that scenario.

 

Again the port employees certainly seemed to have been poor trained, ignorant, incompetent, rude and any other derogatory adjective you want to use.   But it isn't necessarily racially motivated. 

 

Some years ago my pregnant wife and I were flying to look for a new house as I had been transferred.   At the gate, my wife was asked for a doctor's letter stating that is was okay for her to fly.   Nowhere in any policy of the airline was this needed and I knew this because I had specifically called the airline twice to inquire about it.   (called a second time to be sure).   We both as white as you can get, but is we were of color should I assume the gate agent was racist?   After some calls and checking we were finally allowed on the plane.   Don't assume racism when the actual cause is the list of things I said above (stupid, incompetent, poorly trained ...)

[Torfamm]

2 hours ago, wahooker said:

We followed every rule posted on their website regarding required documentation.   This wasn't a rule, it was made up BS on the spot.

This is the simplest issue for Celebrity to address. No such requirement to present adoption papers when traveling  on a Celebrity cruise with a child who shares your last name exists. There is no excuse for telling you they were needed.

What constitutes a red flag for trafficking is much more complex and involves the port authority and all cruise lines operating out of the port.

 

[gordiej]

Not sure I understand how having the passport negates a potential trafficking situation. Is it merely that the last name matches the parent? I suppose it would have to be a pretty big coincidence otherwise, but not impossible. The passport only establishes identity and citizenship, not any sort of familial relationship.

 

I also agree with others that a (presumably) round-trip cruise is NOT how you go about trafficking. 

 

Nonetheless, it sounds like there was racial profiling and it was handled poorly. While heavy-handed, I don't think it's inherently wrong, if handled sensitively and probably in concert with behavioral profiling. 

 

Maybe also worth mentioning that just because OP met X's requirement for same last names doesn't necessarily give them a free pass onto the ship. 

[wahooker]

3 minutes ago, gordiej said:

Not sure I understand how having the passport negates a potential trafficking situation. Is it merely that the last name matches the parent? I suppose it would have to be a pretty big coincidence otherwise, but not impossible. The passport only establishes identity and citizenship, not any sort of familial relationship.

 

I also agree with others that a (presumably) round-trip cruise is NOT how you go about trafficking. 

 

Nonetheless, it sounds like there was racial profiling and it was handled poorly. While heavy-handed, I don't think it's inherently wrong, if handled sensitively and probably in concert with behavioral profiling. 

 

Maybe also worth mentioning that just because OP met X's requirement for same last names doesn't necessarily give them a free pass onto the ship. 

Then what does?  If following all the currently listed rules as written doesn't qualify us to board the ship then what does?

 

I'm all for measures to prevent trafficking. Arbitrarily singling out one kid among hundreds of families and demanding paperwork that is not mentioned anywhere is not the way to handle it.

[Itchy&Scratchy]

52 minutes ago, CruiseRQA said:

Maybe it is known that children of color accompanied by white adults are 10x more likely to be trafficked?

and how would the original adoption papers prove that the child of color is not being trafficked?

[Itchy&Scratchy]

12 minutes ago, gordiej said:

Not sure I understand how having the passport negates a potential trafficking situation. Is it merely that the last name matches the parent? I suppose it would have to be a pretty big coincidence otherwise, but not impossible. The passport only establishes identity and citizenship, not any sort of familial relationship.

a US citizen minor's passport can only be obtained with permission from and personal appearance by both parents. Their IDs are checked by the passport acceptance agent and copies are made and sent in with the application. The child's birth certificate is also checked and a copy is sent with the application. It proves both citizenship and familial relationship.  If one of the parents is not available personally, additional hoops have to be jumped through to prove that they agree to the passport issuance of a child.

 

P.S. We've just got a US passport for our kid for the 3rd time.

Edited December 31, 2023 by Itchy&Scratchy

[gordiej]

6 minutes ago, wahooker said:

Then what does?  If following all the currently listed rules as written doesn't qualify us to board the ship then what does?

Nothing, really. Have you read the cruise ticket contract and conduct policy? 

 

6 minutes ago, wahooker said:

 

I'm all for measures to prevent trafficking. Arbitrarily singling out one kid among hundreds of families and demanding paperwork that is not mentioned anywhere is not the way to handle it.

Yes, I agree that it sounds like it was handled poorly.

[gordiej]

1 minute ago, Itchy&Scratchy said:

a US citizen minor's passport can only be obtained with permission from and personal appearance by both parents. Their IDs are checked by the passport acceptance agent and copies are made and sent in with the application. The child's birth certificate is also checked and a copy is sent with the application. It proves both citizenship and familial relationship.  If one of the parents is not available personally, additional hoops have to be jumped through to prove that they agree to the passport issuance of a child.

Does the passport list the names of the parents? I'm assuming it does not, but will admit I haven't seen a minor's passport in many many years. 

[Itchy&Scratchy]

59 minutes ago, CruiseRQA said:

Some years ago my pregnant wife and I were flying to look for a new house as I had been transferred.   At the gate, my wife was asked for a doctor's letter stating that is was okay for her to fly.   Nowhere in any policy of the airline was this needed and I knew this because I had specifically called the airline twice to inquire about it.   (called a second time to be sure).   We both as white as you can get, but is we were of color should I assume the gate agent was racist?   After some calls and checking we were finally allowed on the plane.   Don't assume racism when the actual cause is the list of things I said above (stupid, incompetent, poorly trained ...)

your example has nothing to do with the original post. And, yes, airlines as well as cruise lines have had rules in regards to pregnancy terms for years and years. Has nothing to do with race or racism.

 

Racially motivated and racist are different things.

[prmssk]

2 minutes ago, gordiej said:

Does the passport list the names of the parents? I'm assuming it does not, but will admit I haven't seen a minor's passport in many many years. 

It does not which is why Celebrity's clear policy says that if last names don't match, additional documentation is required.  In this case, last names matched.

[Itchy&Scratchy]

2 minutes ago, gordiej said:

Does the passport list the names of the parents? I'm assuming it does not, but will admit I haven't seen a minor's passport in many many years. 

no, but in order to get a US passport for a minor, BOTH parents have to produce a whole bunch of documentation, including docs with prove familial relationship. A US birth certificate provides both citizenship and familial relationship proof.

[gordiej]

2 minutes ago, Itchy&Scratchy said:

no, but in order to get a US passport for a minor, BOTH parents have to produce a whole bunch of documentation, including docs with prove familial relationship. A US birth certificate provides both citizenship and familial relationship proof.

Okay, then right - the passport only proves the familial relationship to the GOVERNMENT that issued the passport. It doesn't prove it to the cruise line. But yes, they have set the policy that if the last names match no further documentation should be required. 

[Itchy&Scratchy]

27 minutes ago, gordiej said:

Maybe also worth mentioning that just because OP met X's requirement for same last names doesn't necessarily give them a free pass onto the ship. 

I am sure their pass onto the ship was far from free. 🙂

 

OP met ALL the documentation requirements, not just the last name match one.

Edited December 31, 2023 by Itchy&Scratchy

[gordiej]

7 minutes ago, prmssk said:

It does not which is why Celebrity's clear policy says that if last names don't match, additional documentation is required.  In this case, last names matched.

Sure, but the other point I was making is that just because the last names DO match doesn't necessarily mean there couldn't be another reason to deny/delay boarding. (And to be clear, I'm not claiming that was the case, obviously OP believes there was no other reason.)

[At Sea At Peace]

32 minutes ago, wahooker said:

I'm all for measures to prevent trafficking. Arbitrarily singling out one kid among hundreds of families and demanding paperwork that is not mentioned anywhere is not the way to handle it.

 

1.  Well, then let's hear WHY you believe your one kid, among hundreds of families, were singled out and by whom is the "they?"

 

They (identify who/whom) singled your kid and your family out because ~

 

______________________________________________________________

 

______________________________________________________________

 

______________________________________________________________

 

2.  What do want?  An apology, a free cruise, both or both with money?

 

______________________________________________________________

 

______________________________________________________________

 

______________________________________________________________

 

Edited December 31, 2023 by At Sea At Peace