In case anyone wonders what happens if passengers are allowed onboard without the proper visas

[Mary229]

Just now, sfaaa said:

It could be that the TA was a crook or the entire group conspired with TA to enter Europe illegally. Who knows.

I have heard the theory that it was an elaborate scheme to illegal migrate to Europe - there has to be an easier and cheaper way to do that than cruising 

[Essiesmom]

Pure speculation on my part, but I suspect this TA has done this before, perhaps for not so large a group, but the visas were so good they have never been questioned.  Maybe some have been legit.  But I’m betting that somewhere within the group was someone whose visa application would not have been approved.  And just as from the US the manifest is submitted before departure, and further examined while the ship,is sailing.  That’s why in the US the occasional guest is escorted off in handcuffs upon return to port.

   But the scrutiny of the manifest, probably bu Spain or EU officials, picked up this individual who should have been denied.  Which led them to examine the others, and make the grand discovery.  And I’m betting also that MSC was informed midway in the cruise that these people could not be debarked, and were working feverishly for some resolution that would have avoided canceling the Rome departure.  
   And I would also bet that the people left stranded in Civitavecchia could have boarded downline in Messina, where she will be tomorrow.  EM

[Ferry_Watcher]

6 hours ago, MacMadame said:

Why didn't they take her somewhere and have her print the document? Or did it need to come from China with some sort of seal on it?

 

I believe what happened is that the passenger who was removed from the ship was a Chinese national, but was also a US Permanent Resident (Green Card holder).  I am guessing that she was traveling with her US citizen husband.  When the couple looked into the visa requirements for Argentina, they saw that US citizens just need an electronic visa, and they may have assumed (or were told by a TA) that the same applied for a US Permanent Resident (Green Card holder).  However, despite being a US Permanent Resident, Argentina required Chinese passport holders to have an actual visitor visa in their passport (the type that you need to apply for and send in your passport to have the full page visa affixed to a your passport). 

 

So sadly for that passenger, there was no easy fix for this document snafu.

[BruceMuzz]

8 hours ago, ontheweb said:

Actually as we are in the so called information age, it is easier than ever to know the rules.

 

And since San Diego and San Francisco are both in the US, the same federal laws are going to apply. I don't know where you can get they can be different.

The fact that you don’t know why 2 different US Ports enforce US Fede

[BruceMuzz]

9 hours ago, ontheweb said:

Actually as we are in the so called information age, it is easier than ever to know the rules.

 

And since San Diego and San Francisco are both in the US, the same federal laws are going to apply. I don't know where you can get they can 

Edited April 6 by BruceMuzz
Wrong post

[BruceMuzz]

On 4/4/2024 at 6:43 PM, ontheweb said:

I just don't understand why anyone who had the necessary documentation to board would give you a hassle. All it does is delay his boarding and everyone in the line behind him.

It also strokes his sense of entitlement. This is a very strong issue in North America today.

[BruceMuzz]

9 hours ago, Mary229 said:

If there is a wholesale change in Visas the cruise ship will generally skip the port.  We had this happen during 2022 right after the startup after the lockdowns.  Both Gibraltar and Monaco changed the rules so those ports were skipped. Luckily we were able to replace both with other destinations 

Where did you get the idea about what “cruise ships generally do”?

For the 34 ships on 13 different cruise lines, I have had to clear on over 1,500 voyages, during the past 47 years, we have not “generally done that”. 
Which cruise lines have you been working for?

[ontheweb]

11 hours ago, ldubs said:

 

Well, hindsight is always pretty accurate.   In this case, we should keep in mind the passengers paid a TA to among other things, provide a visa.  Most would feel reasonably satisfied they had been diligent in doing that.  How would they know the visa was a fake.  

I agree that that is definitely unfortunate that they used a TA who would resort to providing fake documents. You would hope they could use the legal system of their home country to be compensated and damages for the TA's blatantly illegal actions.

[Mary229]

5 hours ago, BruceMuzz said:

Where did you get the idea about what “cruise ships generally do”?

For the 34 ships on 13 different cruise lines, I have had to clear on over 1,500 voyages, during the past 47 years, we have not “generally done that”. 
Which cruise lines have you been working for?

Perhaps I was not clear. If during the voyage a country changes their entire entry procedure such as for war, embargo, coup or disease ships generally avoid that port.  What other reasons could you think of that would cause a denial of all visas.  
 

That is what I generally understand as a “wholesale change” , perhaps that is too colloquial a term.  This would be in the case that it was affecting a vast percentage of crew and passengers.  For heaven’s sake if the crew or the captain are going to be denied entry into a country do you think they are going to continue to dock because it is on their itinerary.  One does not need to be a geophysicist 🙋‍♀️ to understand how to pump gasoline. 

[ldubs]

21 hours ago, Mike981 said:

 

*Sidebar*

 

My wife and I have an in-home daycare in the USA.

 

This conversation reminds me, every year parents forgetting their children in their vehicle as they go to work for the day. When they go back out to their car to go home, their child has passed.

 

So-so very sad.

 

Parents forget/chose not to tell us almost everyday in our daycare if they are coming or not. Our state was trying/thinking of mandating that if a parent does not show up or contact you, the daycare providers will be mandated to follow up with the parents until they get an answer on why they did not show up and that the child is safe. 

 

It is a nice thought on paper and sounds good for people who do not do daycare, but I am sure you can see how wrong this is. Move the blame from the parent to the provider who is most likely taking care of 6-12 other children.  

 

Seems less about blame than about the child's welfare.  Parent does something dumb or is incapacitated so doesn't show or make contact.  What else is there to do other than attempt contact?   Seems preferable to caring for the child with no idea of what is happening.   Maybe there should be a law that parents provide alternative contacts who will take charge of the child if they are unavailable.   

 

Do you get a lot of late shows when the clocks are moved forward one hour?  When I was coaching kid's sports, on "spring forward" day I was advised by the more experienced coaches to remind parents to reset their clocks.  Otherwise it was likely at least one would be an hour late to pick their kid up after practice.    

[Mike981]

2 hours ago, ldubs said:

 

Seems less about blame than about the child's welfare.  Parent does something dumb or is incapacitated so doesn't show or make contact.  What else is there to do other than attempt contact?   Seems preferable to caring for the child with no idea of what is happening.   Maybe there should be a law that parents provide alternative contacts who will take charge of the child if they are unavailable.   

 

Do you get a lot of late shows when the clocks are moved forward one hour?  When I was coaching kid's sports, on "spring forward" day I was advised by the more experienced coaches to remind parents to reset their clocks.  Otherwise it was likely at least one would be an hour late to pick their kid up after practice.    

 

There just isn't any way to do it without taking away from the other children. If anything, there needs to be another level of support that the provider can contact and then that agency/person can attempt to contact the parent.

 

Parents do have to give us alternative contacts, but guess what? They don't always work, and the parents don't always answer their phones either. A lot of times parents won't answer our call  because they think their child is sick and they don't want to leave work to come and get them. Especially if they have drugged and dropped their child, where they load up their child up on medicine and don't tell us, BECAUSE they know they should keep their child home and not infect everyone else. We have a 24 hour wait period if your child has had a fever or thrown up. Parents will lie. And we have had the actual child tell us the parents said not to tell us they were sick. But I digress...

 

I know this is uncomfortable for some to hear, but this is VERY common with parents and it extends to school age children that get dropped off by the school bus at our daycare. It is scary when the bus goes by our house and the child does not get off. We will do everything we can to find out what happened and 99% of the time when we can get a hold of the parent they will laugh and say, "oh yea I picked them up." 

 

Oh I could go on and on and...

 

 

As for the time change, no somehow the parents still drop their child off at the proper time.

[ldubs]

19 hours ago, Mike981 said:

 

There just isn't any way to do it without taking away from the other children. If anything, there needs to be another level of support that the provider can contact and then that agency/person can attempt to contact the parent.

 

Parents do have to give us alternative contacts, but guess what? They don't always work, and the parents don't always answer their phones either. A lot of times parents won't answer our call  because they think their child is sick and they don't want to leave work to come and get them. Especially if they have drugged and dropped their child, where they load up their child up on medicine and don't tell us, BECAUSE they know they should keep their child home and not infect everyone else. We have a 24 hour wait period if your child has had a fever or thrown up. Parents will lie. And we have had the actual child tell us the parents said not to tell us they were sick. But I digress...

 

I know this is uncomfortable for some to hear, but this is VERY common with parents and it extends to school age children that get dropped off by the school bus at our daycare. It is scary when the bus goes by our house and the child does not get off. We will do everything we can to find out what happened and 99% of the time when we can get a hold of the parent they will laugh and say, "oh yea I picked them up." 

 

Oh I could go on and on and...

 

 

As for the time change, no somehow the parents still drop their child off at the proper time.

 

Thanks, kind of an eye opener and at the same time not surprised.