In case anyone wonders what happens if passengers are allowed onboard without the proper visas

[ontheweb]

Visa problems: Cruise ship with 1,500 passengers stuck in Spain's Barcelona | AP News

 

I thought the people doing the checking in for cruises like @Ferry_Watcher were supposed to catch this sort of thing to prevent something like this happening. 

 

There is also a thread in Princess about someone whose MSC cruise was affected by this.

 

 

Edited April 4 by ontheweb
added second link

[Essiesmom]

Two threads on the MSC board.  EM

[Ferry_Watcher]

20 minutes ago, ontheweb said:

I thought the people doing the checking in for cruises like @Ferry_Watcher were supposed to catch this sort of thing to prevent something like this happening. 

 

In Seattle (Pier 91), every passport that is collected because it has a required visa inside, is looked at three different times, by three different people before the ship sails.  First by the counter agent (who collects it); then by an 'experienced' lead/supervisor staffer; then finally by the Ship's Documentation Officer.  All this happens before the collected passports are transferred to the ship.  This is done so if there are any questions/problems, that there is still time to remove a passenger from the ship before it sails.  (Which has happened, although rarely).

[sparks1093]

40 minutes ago, ontheweb said:

Visa problems: Cruise ship with 1,500 passengers stuck in Spain's Barcelona | AP News

 

I thought the people doing the checking in for cruises like @Ferry_Watcher were supposed to catch this sort of thing to prevent something like this happening. 

 

There is also a thread in Princess about someone whose MSC cruise was affected by this.

 

 

All port employees aren't created equal and nor, evidently, are the procedures used in port. I suspect that had the embarkation port been as thorough as outlined by @Ferry_Watcher this wouldn't have happened.

[Ferry_Watcher]

According to someone on the MSC board (who could translate a Spanish News Report), the Bolivians all booked their cruise thru the same travel agency, which also provided the fake visas.

 

 Post # 21 Bolivians had paid 9.000 euro to a travel agent for a cruise and a visa which was fake

[ontheweb]

2 hours ago, Ferry_Watcher said:

 

In Seattle (Pier 91), every passport that is collected because it has a required visa inside, is looked at three different times, by three different people before the ship sails.  First by the counter agent (who collects it); then by an 'experienced' lead/supervisor staffer; then finally by the Ship's Documentation Officer.  All this happens before the collected passports are transferred to the ship.  This is done so if there are any questions/problems, that there is still time to remove a passenger from the ship before it sails.  (Which has happened, although rarely).

 

2 hours ago, sparks1093 said:

All port employees aren't created equal and nor, evidently, are the procedures used in port. I suspect that had the embarkation port been as thorough as outlined by @Ferry_Watcher this wouldn't have happened.

I think we would all agree if the checking at the originating port was more diligent, this would not have happened.

 

And if it true as a previous post said that the travel agency provided falso visas, that is really disturbing! 😒😢

[ontheweb]

2 hours ago, Ferry_Watcher said:

According to someone on the MSC board (who could translate a Spanish News Report), the Bolivians all booked their cruise thru the same travel agency, which also provided the fake visas.

 

 Post # 21 Bolivians had paid 9.000 euro to a travel agent for a cruise and a visa which was fake

What training do you have where you could spot a visa that is not a real visa?

[sparks1093]

2 minutes ago, ontheweb said:

What training do you have where you could spot a visa that is not a real visa?

I was just going to ask the same thing. It might only be something that can be checked by accessing a database and they don't do that at embarkation.

[ontheweb]

5 minutes ago, sparks1093 said:

I was just going to ask the same thing. It might only be something that can be checked by accessing a database and they don't do that at embarkation.

Great minds think alike. 😉😉

[Essiesmom]

If you watch enough ‘To catch a smuggler’ on National Geographic channel, or similar, you will get an idea of what they are looking for in passports and visas.  EM

[Ferry_Watcher]

Honestly, unless something seemed 'off', I don't know how I would recognize a fake visa, especially a well crafted one.  One time I was looking at a Canadian Visa, and something made me pause,  and I brought to to my supervisor who said it was fine.  I think what is was that I was so use to seeing the typical 'visitor' visa, that when I saw a different type (immigrant or employment visa), it just struck me a different, or for me, 'off'.  Anyway, the supervisor said it was fine and I embarked the passenger.

 

It's always good to check.

 

On a slightly different note, one day I was checking documents at the terminal entrance, and a older solo man handed me his US passport.  As soon as he put it in my hand, I knew that something was off.  Turns out it was an older (expired) passport and it had fewer pagers than current passports, so when I had my 'something is off' reaction, it was because the passport felt lighter.  He had never renewed his passport, but he was challenging me that even though it was expired, it still proved that he was a citizen.  He got walked over to the document area.  Later, I followed up with the document supervisor about the man, and she said that he had his US birth certificate all along, and he was just being obstinate.  He sailed using his US birth certificate.

[sparks1093]

53 minutes ago, Ferry_Watcher said:

Honestly, unless something seemed 'off', I don't know how I would recognize a fake visa, especially a well crafted one.  One time I was looking at a Canadian Visa, and something made me pause,  and I brought to to my supervisor who said it was fine.  I think what is was that I was so use to seeing the typical 'visitor' visa, that when I saw a different type (immigrant or employment visa), it just struck me a different, or for me, 'off'.  Anyway, the supervisor said it was fine and I embarked the passenger.

 

It's always good to check.

 

On a slightly different note, one day I was checking documents at the terminal entrance, and a older solo man handed me his US passport.  As soon as he put it in my hand, I knew that something was off.  Turns out it was an older (expired) passport and it had fewer pagers than current passports, so when I had my 'something is off' reaction, it was because the passport felt lighter.  He had never renewed his passport, but he was challenging me that even though it was expired, it still proved that he was a citizen.  He got walked over to the document area.  Later, I followed up with the document supervisor about the man, and she said that he had his US birth certificate all along, and he was just being obstinate.  He sailed using his US birth certificate.

To be fair it does say on the State Department website to guard your expired passport since it is still proof of citizenship, at least it used to be there. Does sound like something I would do to test that but I'm glad that I no longer have to 🙂. (I just looked and it appears that this has been removed from the website.)

Edited April 4 by sparks1093

[Ferry_Watcher]

Yes, but if we allowed expired passports to be used as proof of citizenship, why would anyone renew their passport?  You could be using a 40 yr old passport with a photo of your 18 yr old self.  Or, maybe a super old passport that doesn't have the embedded chip that the machines can read.

 

Interestingly, we use to see more folks challenging documents (like trying to use expired passports) pre-pandemic, than we see today.  Not sure if those folks are just not traveling, or got put off traveling because some of the 'health' documents needed to board (2021-22), or whatever reason.  At the pier, we also don't take the time to engage with the debate, as there are about 75 people behind you wanting to get on the cruise ship. Rather than have a typical pier-side agent engage, the challenging passenger is walked over to the documentation area, away from the general embarking area.  Those folks have the time and resources to engage - and have the final word. 

[Mary229]

Not always does the ship get stuck. We had a Chinese national/ US green card on our ship last year.  When they reached Argentina the Argentines would not accept her digital visa, they required a physical paper copy for Chinese nationals.  She was taken off the ship, escorted to the airport and boarded on a flight back to the US. I do not know who covered her expenses.  We know the story as her husband, who stayed onboard, befriended us and told us the entire story.  

[ontheweb]

3 hours ago, Ferry_Watcher said:

Honestly, unless something seemed 'off', I don't know how I would recognize a fake visa, especially a well crafted one.  One time I was looking at a Canadian Visa, and something made me pause,  and I brought to to my supervisor who said it was fine.  I think what is was that I was so use to seeing the typical 'visitor' visa, that when I saw a different type (immigrant or employment visa), it just struck me a different, or for me, 'off'.  Anyway, the supervisor said it was fine and I embarked the passenger.

 

It's always good to check.

 

On a slightly different note, one day I was checking documents at the terminal entrance, and a older solo man handed me his US passport.  As soon as he put it in my hand, I knew that something was off.  Turns out it was an older (expired) passport and it had fewer pagers than current passports, so when I had my 'something is off' reaction, it was because the passport felt lighter.  He had never renewed his passport, but he was challenging me that even though it was expired, it still proved that he was a citizen.  He got walked over to the document area.  Later, I followed up with the document supervisor about the man, and she said that he had his US birth certificate all along, and he was just being obstinate.  He sailed using his US birth certificate.

I just don't understand why anyone who had the necessary documentation to board would give you a hassle. All it does is delay his boarding and everyone in the line behind him.

[CruisingAlong4Now]

The ship has been allowed to sail, albeit without these passengers.  They were "off-loaded" to an in-transit area, still not allowed to enter Spain.

[sparks1093]

2 hours ago, Ferry_Watcher said:

Yes, but if we allowed expired passports to be used as proof of citizenship, why would anyone renew their passport?  You could be using a 40 yr old passport with a photo of your 18 yr old self.  Or, maybe a super old passport that doesn't have the embedded chip that the machines can read.

 

Interestingly, we use to see more folks challenging documents (like trying to use expired passports) pre-pandemic, than we see today.  Not sure if those folks are just not traveling, or got put off traveling because some of the 'health' documents needed to board (2021-22), or whatever reason.  At the pier, we also don't take the time to engage with the debate, as there are about 75 people behind you wanting to get on the cruise ship. Rather than have a typical pier-side agent engage, the challenging passenger is walked over to the documentation area, away from the general embarking area.  Those folks have the time and resources to engage - and have the final word. 

Oh I absolutely get it. They probably removed that statement from the website because of that.

[ldubs]

3 hours ago, Mary229 said:

Not always does the ship get stuck. We had a Chinese national/ US green card on our ship last year.  When they reached Argentina the Argentines would not accept her digital visa, they required a physical paper copy for Chinese nationals.  She was taken off the ship, escorted to the airport and boarded on a flight back to the US. I do not know who covered her expenses.  We know the story as her husband, who stayed onboard, befriended us and told us the entire story.  

 

Yikes!  If I were the husband who stayed on board, I would be afraid to ever go home.  

[Mary229]

30 minutes ago, CHPURSER said:

It is so easy to say that someone should have known better and checked more closely.

The people saying those things do not realize or understand that visa and passport rules can change from hour to hour and port to port - even in the same country.

A foreign flag ship calling at San Diego port has a completely different set of immigration rules than the same ship calling at the port of San Francisco. But not always. It depends on which Regional US Immigration Commander is in charge of those ports on that particular day.

If there is a wholesale change in Visas the cruise ship will generally skip the port.  We had this happen during 2022 right after the startup after the lockdowns.  Both Gibraltar and Monaco changed the rules so those ports were skipped. Luckily we were able to replace both with other destinations 

[Mike981]

 

*Sidebar*

 

My wife and I have an in-home daycare in the USA.

 

This conversation reminds me, every year parents forgetting their children in their vehicle as they go to work for the day. When they go back out to their car to go home, their child has passed.

 

So-so very sad.

 

Parents forget/chose not to tell us almost everyday in our daycare if they are coming or not. Our state was trying/thinking of mandating that if a parent does not show up or contact you, the daycare providers will be mandated to follow up with the parents until they get an answer on why they did not show up and that the child is safe. 

 

It is a nice thought on paper and sounds good for people who do not do daycare, but I am sure you can see how wrong this is. Move the blame from the parent to the provider who is most likely taking care of 6-12 other children.  

[ontheweb]

1 hour ago, CHPURSER said:

It is so easy to say that someone should have known better and checked more closely.

The people saying those things do not realize or understand that visa and passport rules can change from hour to hour and port to port - even in the same country.

A foreign flag ship calling at San Diego port has a completely different set of immigration rules than the same ship calling at the port of San Francisco. But not always. It depends on which Regional US Immigration Commander is in charge of those ports on that particular day.

Actually as we are in the so called information age, it is easier than ever to know the rules.

 

And since San Diego and San Francisco are both in the US, the same federal laws are going to apply. I don't know where you can get they can be different.

[MacMadame]

On 4/4/2024 at 11:00 AM, Mary229 said:

Not always does the ship get stuck. We had a Chinese national/ US green card on our ship last year.  When they reached Argentina the Argentines would not accept her digital visa, they required a physical paper copy for Chinese nationals.  She was taken off the ship, escorted to the airport and boarded on a flight back to the US. 

Why didn't they take her somewhere and have her print the document? Or did it need to come from China with some sort of seal on it?

[Mary229]

30 minutes ago, MacMadame said:

Why didn't they take her somewhere and have her print the document? Or did it need to come from China with some sort of seal on it?

It had to come from the Chinese embassy - official papers. 

[ldubs]

On 4/4/2024 at 7:22 AM, ontheweb said:

 

I think we would all agree if the checking at the originating port was more diligent, this would not have happened.

 

And if it true as a previous post said that the travel agency provided falso visas, that is really disturbing! 😒😢

 

Well, hindsight is always pretty accurate.   In this case, we should keep in mind the passengers paid a TA to among other things, provide a visa.  Most would feel reasonably satisfied they had been diligent in doing that.  How would they know the visa was a fake.  

[sfaaa]

It could be that the TA was a crook or the entire group conspired with TA to enter Europe illegally. Who knows.