Is this discrimination

[Ladyshopper23]

I have a hidden disability which means I need to use the accessible toilet. The number of looks I used to get when coming out of them, it was awful.

 

I was almost grateful when I started needing to use a walking stick due to mobility issues (not really, but I'm sure people can relate!). It was suddenly as if it was legitimate for me to use the accessible toilets, as I clearly had a visible issue.

 

Yes there are scammers, but there always will be in every form of life. People who want something for nothing, or to get there first or whatever.

 

When I first started using airport assistance because of my mobility (standing causes me a lot of pain after a short amount of time, and I can't walk huge distances without pain either) I made the mistake a few times of thinking I could manage at the destination airport. In my head I'd think, oh, this seems like a small airport, it won't take long, etc etc. Big mistake. I now always wait for assistance at the other end, even though it usually means you're last off the plane. Sometimes they don't turn up for ages, then you're left feeling really guilty for the crew, as they can't leave until you do. Or for easyJet, when they're carrying on on the next flight, and you can see all the people lining up in the terminal, you feel awful. But I know I can't manage, so I have to wait, whilst feeling terribly guilty.

 

Sometimes you get to board the plane first, sometimes it's last. My only concern is that I tend to have the largest carry on size allowed for the airline, as I have to carry necessary medical equipment. If you're on last then trying to get it put up above you is a complete nightmare!

 

I took a wheelchair on board once (on a Princess cruise), as I was really suffering at the time and wanted to be able to get off at ports and see a bit of the area, but could hardly walk at all. Absolute nightmare, no-body cares when you're waiting at the elevators or anywhere else, they just jump right in ahead of you. I've managed without since, and am fortunate that I can do so. I don't take my health for granted though, and am aware it could get worse in future.

 

 

[Hasha]

Hi there, 

 

I'm wondering if someone here can help me. I've seen it mentioned in a few places on this forum that the evac chairs situation is due to some new maritime law that came into force in April - does anyone know what this law is/can direct me to it? 

Thanks in advance for any and all help! 

[AchileLauro]

46 minutes ago, Hasha said:

Hi there, 

 

I'm wondering if someone here can help me. I've seen it mentioned in a few places on this forum that the evac chairs situation is due to some new maritime law that came into force in April - does anyone know what this law is/can direct me to it? 

Thanks in advance for any and all help! 

I don't know if it is actually any new law, I think that it's more a case of existing laws and requirements simply being more rigidly applied and enforced.

[Hasha]

Thanks so much for your help AchileLauro! I had wondered if it might be more a case of this - I've tried looking round for UK maritime law updates in the past year, but not found any that seemed specifically applicable in this instance. So that would make more sense. 

[LittleTinker]

2 hours ago, Hasha said:

Hi there, 

 

I'm wondering if someone here can help me. I've seen it mentioned in a few places on this forum that the evac chairs situation is due to some new maritime law that came into force in April - does anyone know what this law is/can direct me to it? 

Thanks in advance for any and all help! 

Dont know what law it is, but other cruise lines dont seem to have this issue.
 

[nosapphire]

The attached link may be of interest - just come across it.

https://safety4sea.com/chirp-passengers-with-disabilities-on-cruise-ships/

 

Rather than specific legal criteria about disability, it comes down to each cruise ship (not just the line) being able to comply with evacuation speed. So each ship has to think about how they can and will be able to handle passengers with mobility or other problems in the event of a major emergency.

[ozscotart]

On 5/14/2024 at 8:49 PM, Selbourne said:

You don’t request one. They are allocated by P&O. 

I’m really confused by all this, as a part time wheelchair/mobility scooter user I need one on a holiday of any kind to get around. Do I book a suitable cabin with p&o given all my devices are folding and meet the requirements for non accessible cabins and then notify them or do I get permission for an evac chair which I don’t need normally, I can walk down two flights with my stick and my husband assisting, then book ? Is there an advised procedure for this? No need for this on princess, they all fit (one of them!) in a standard balcony and I only have to fill in the normal mobility form. I understand the need for people with certain disabilities but there are a wide range of disability on a ship, to be defined only by certain equipment: eg not people using crutches? , is rather limited thinking. I’ll ring them and find out if they have a recommended procedure for disabled people booking. But I do appreciate any further experience with this policy. 

[david63]

29 minutes ago, ozscotart said:

Do I book a suitable cabin with p&o given all my devices are folding and meet the requirements for non accessible cabins and then notify them or do I get permission for an evac chair which I don’t need normally

Only P&O can give a definitive answer but based on what information is around at the moment I would certainly be erring on the side of caution. Under the current rules you will definitely need an evac chair.

[ozscotart]

4 minutes ago, david63 said:

Only P&O can give a definitive answer but based on what information is around at the moment I would certainly be erring on the side of caution. Under the current rules you will definitely need an evac chair.

Yes, just had this conversation with my husband, under the circumstances I think we might stick with Princess, we did enjoy our last P&O cruise but it’s too far hard really 

[Selbourne]

1 hour ago, ozscotart said:

I’m really confused by all this, as a part time wheelchair/mobility scooter user I need one on a holiday of any kind to get around. Do I book a suitable cabin with p&o given all my devices are folding and meet the requirements for non accessible cabins and then notify them or do I get permission for an evac chair which I don’t need normally, I can walk down two flights with my stick and my husband assisting, then book ? Is there an advised procedure for this? No need for this on princess, they all fit (one of them!) in a standard balcony and I only have to fill in the normal mobility form. I understand the need for people with certain disabilities but there are a wide range of disability on a ship, to be defined only by certain equipment: eg not people using crutches? , is rather limited thinking. I’ll ring them and find out if they have a recommended procedure for disabled people booking. But I do appreciate any further experience with this policy. 

I corrected that in a subsequent post, as I found a copy of our completed ‘On Board Needs Questionnaire’ (admittedly for Cunard, but I think that they are the same) and noticed that there was a tick box for whether you needed an evacuation chair, which I had ticked. 
 

I suspect that the problems occur when passengers feel that they don’t need assistance when completing the form, but P&O subsequently do. As others have said, it really is essential to get clarity on this from P&O directly, as this is an immensely complicated area and none of us are experts on it. It’s a shame that you are being deterred from booking with P&O because of this issue, but I can’t say that I blame you. People want to look forward to a holiday, not be worried about it, and there’s a lot of confusion about this. 

[terrierjohn]

17 minutes ago, Selbourne said:

I corrected that in a subsequent post, as I found a copy of our completed ‘On Board Needs Questionnaire’ (admittedly for Cunard, but I think that they are the same) and noticed that there was a tick box for whether you needed an evacuation chair, which I had ticked. 
 

I suspect that the problems occur when passengers feel that they don’t need assistance when completing the form, but P&O subsequently do. As others have said, it really is essential to get clarity on this from P&O directly, as this is an immensely complicated area and none of us are experts on it. It’s a shame that you are being deterred from booking with P&O because of this issue, but I can’t say that I blame you. People want to look forward to a holiday, not be worried about it, and there’s a lot of confusion about this. 

I do wish that P&O customer service dept would provide comprehensive and thorough training to all their staff when they bring in any new systems. In fact I would really like them to think through new systems before they implement them, and ensure they have identified all potential issues that might result from the new system implementation. 

Maybe then they would realise how infuriating ill thought out and implemented systems are to their passengers

 

[Cpt Pugwash]

On 7/19/2024 at 6:22 PM, ozscotart said:

It is stated by someone above that you do not request a evacuation chair rather they are allocated by P&O which is 100% wrong.

If you are booking a Accessible Cabin  when one is available you are asked if you will need a evacuation chair and if you do and they do not have any left  i doubt they will let you book that Cabin. I don't have personal experience of being refused but i do have of trying to book Accessible cabins where there is no Evacuation Chairs available and the other way around.so i always looked at another trip. So looking at it sensibly i don't think P&O would be happy to take any Passengers onboard who have stated they would need help in a Evacuation and not be able to supply any thus letting themselves and others be put in danger. 

 

[LittleTinker]

Its complicated.
Sometimes, people might just feel more comfortable using a scooter or wheelchair on some days but wouldnt need an evac chair in cases of emergency.
Cant see the problem with that.

[indiana123]

I walk with two sticks, but usually use my tiny mobility scooter on board or long walks, also it changes day by day,  but I am sure that in  an emergency adrenalin would kick in and  I would hang on the banisters and  possibly be first up the stairs!!! I

[jockosjungle]

Bit of a bump for this, we've just come off Iona. In the end my parents didn't go and as a compromise they moved their cruise to February and put us in their cabin. Without going that much into it, this was acceptable to us as my Mum has took a turn for the worse shortly after my previous messages and was fundamentally not up to going on the cruise.

 

I was therefore in the difficult situation where if I kicked off and complained too much, they might have found her an evac chair which would have left her on a cruise she just isn't really up to (possibly without it being an insurance issue). Therefore I'm vaguely happy with the outcome for us, I understand this was a concession from P&O to move the cruise so late (although not really much of one). the upside is I get an extra cruise and my parents haven't lost out financially

Back on topic, I did the same cruise last year. I cannot comment on whether it is discrimination or not, but anecdotally last year the cruise was full of people in wheelchairs, this year there was very few. I'd suggest that the decrease was about ten times (without being able to offer anything scientific to back this up). There was the odd person in a wheelchair. 

Whether intentional or not, it does seem they've solved the problem of people with disabilities complaining about the lifts. 

On the facebook groups, my situation (basically being allowed to book and then being kicked off the cruise) doesn't seem to be isolated. Not sure if they're putting in procedures moving forward to prevent this (but it does seem they are).

[S1971]

13 minutes ago, jockosjungle said:

Bit of a bump for this, we've just come off Iona. In the end my parents didn't go and as a compromise they moved their cruise to February and put us in their cabin. Without going that much into it, this was acceptable to us as my Mum has took a turn for the worse shortly after my previous messages and was fundamentally not up to going on the cruise.

 

I was therefore in the difficult situation where if I kicked off and complained too much, they might have found her an evac chair which would have left her on a cruise she just isn't really up to (possibly without it being an insurance issue). Therefore I'm vaguely happy with the outcome for us, I understand this was a concession from P&O to move the cruise so late (although not really much of one). the upside is I get an extra cruise and my parents haven't lost out financially

Back on topic, I did the same cruise last year. I cannot comment on whether it is discrimination or not, but anecdotally last year the cruise was full of people in wheelchairs, this year there was very few. I'd suggest that the decrease was about ten times (without being able to offer anything scientific to back this up). There was the odd person in a wheelchair. 

Whether intentional or not, it does seem they've solved the problem of people with disabilities complaining about the lifts. 

On the facebook groups, my situation (basically being allowed to book and then being kicked off the cruise) doesn't seem to be isolated. Not sure if they're putting in procedures moving forward to prevent this (but it does seem they are).

 

Glad things worked out in the end and wishing your mum a speedy recovery, hopefully going forward an enjoyable February cruise is something you all to look forward to.

 

Given other mainstream cruiselines haven't taken this to the extreme, I'm still finding it hard to understand why they have.

 

Having just returned from a Marella cruise, there were many with clear mobility issues, with this in mind I did enquire if there was a requirement to disclose mobility issues, from what I could gather it was a simple "let us know so we can ensure your safety in the unlikely event of an emergency" with no mention of evac chairs.

 

 

[annieuk]

I have just booked a cruise on Arcadia next year and I will need to use a mobility scooter in order to embark and disembark the ship.  I will need, on occasion, to use it round the ship. If for example, in an evening I want to go for a drink before dinner, go to the restaurant and then go to the theatre for the show, which is at the other end of the ship from the restaurant, I would find it difficult to walk that distance.  I can walk a certain amount but can't stand for a long period.  However, I do not need an accessible cabin, nor do I need to use the scooter in the cabin.  According to P&O's new rules I do need an accessible cabin.  I am fortunate in being able to book a suite or mini suite and have been able to book a suitable suite and can take the scooter with me.  I had hoped to book an aft suite which in the past I had with my husband, prior to the need for a scooter.  However, the aft suites on Arcadia are apparently not suitable for taking a mobility scooter. I don't know about suites on the other ships. My scooter is an Efoldi Lite which is one of the lightest scooters available and folds down like a suitcase on wheels.  So I could easily have taken it into the aft suite but rules are rules so that was not allowed.  Had I not been able to book a suite or mini suite I would have taken up an accessible cabin that I don't need.  I chose this cruise on Arcadia really because there were still Evacuation Chairs available.  I had a list of nine cruises I was interested in but there were only two cruises with chairs available.  I will admit I was limiting  the ships to Aurora or Arcadia so probably other ships still had availability.  In the past I have had a scooter in an aft suite on Ventura and only last year in a mini suite on Aurora without any need for an evacuation chair but since then rules have changed.  So in the future I'm assuming things won't be as easy and in order to get the cruise I want I assume I would need to book early, as indeed I used to do when sailing with my husband.  I will have to look at other cruise lines in future but at the moment I'm very pleased to have a cruise booked once again.  Prior to 2020 I had completed over 30 cruises with P&O.  I will look at Saga but they have similar rules as far as accessible cabins if a passenger needs to use a scooter round the ship, if they only need it ashore then it's not a problem as they will store the scooter and it will only be given back when the passenger is going ashore.  Things are certainly changing as for those of us who find as we get older we need some assistance.  

[daiB]

27 minutes ago, annieuk said:

I have just booked a cruise on Arcadia next year and I will need to use a mobility scooter in order to embark and disembark the ship.  I will need, on occasion, to use it round the ship. If for example, in an evening I want to go for a drink before dinner, go to the restaurant and then go to the theatre for the show, which is at the other end of the ship from the restaurant, I would find it difficult to walk that distance.  I can walk a certain amount but can't stand for a long period.  However, I do not need an accessible cabin, nor do I need to use the scooter in the cabin.  According to P&O's new rules I do need an accessible cabin.  I am fortunate in being able to book a suite or mini suite and have been able to book a suitable suite and can take the scooter with me.  I had hoped to book an aft suite which in the past I had with my husband, prior to the need for a scooter.  However, the aft suites on Arcadia are apparently not suitable for taking a mobility scooter. I don't know about suites on the other ships. My scooter is an Efoldi Lite which is one of the lightest scooters available and folds down like a suitcase on wheels.  So I could easily have taken it into the aft suite but rules are rules so that was not allowed.  Had I not been able to book a suite or mini suite I would have taken up an accessible cabin that I don't need.  I chose this cruise on Arcadia really because there were still Evacuation Chairs available.  I had a list of nine cruises I was interested in but there were only two cruises with chairs available.  I will admit I was limiting  the ships to Aurora or Arcadia so probably other ships still had availability.  In the past I have had a scooter in an aft suite on Ventura and only last year in a mini suite on Aurora without any need for an evacuation chair but since then rules have changed.  So in the future I'm assuming things won't be as easy and in order to get the cruise I want I assume I would need to book early, as indeed I used to do when sailing with my husband.  I will have to look at other cruise lines in future but at the moment I'm very pleased to have a cruise booked once again.  Prior to 2020 I had completed over 30 cruises with P&O.  I will look at Saga but they have similar rules as far as accessible cabins if a passenger needs to use a scooter round the ship, if they only need it ashore then it's not a problem as they will store the scooter and it will only be given back when the passenger is going ashore.  Things are certainly changing as for those of us who find as we get older we need some assistance.  

Have you looked at the suites or mini-suites on B deck on the sides of the ship. They are all big enough for scooters. I have used them a number of times. The stern suites have a sharp turn going into the cabin making it difficult.

 

Gan Canny

Dai

[annieuk]

Thank you Dai, I was hoping you might see the posting as I remember a lot of your information being very helpful in the past.  I have in fact booked a B deck suite on Arcadia.  May I ask you something else, I've been looking at the Shore Excursions and it seems that although some excursions are marked 'Accessible' they will only allow a wheelchair on board a mini bus or coach.  Each one seems to be saying that scooters are not allowed.  In the past I have taken a scooter on a Shuttle bus, is this not allowed either now?  This is a Northern European and Scandinavian cruise.  If this is the case then I assume that any excursion I book must be a private one, although the website does say that more accessible excursions will be available once on board, although it doesn't make it clear if this includes being able to take a scooter.  My sister-in-law is accompanying me on this cruise and I'm encouraging her to book any excursion that she wishes and not to worry about me.  I just love being on board the ship and this will be wonderful to be back on board after the death of my husband back in 2020.  I hope I can get ashore in some ports even if it means I can't go further afield.  My sister-in-law hasn't been on a cruise before and she's hoping that if she enjoys it, which I'm sure she will, she can encourage her husband to try cruising, although as a dinghy and big boat sailor he has the same thoughts of cruise ships as had my husband, until he tried one and was then hooked.  I can get around without the scooter, I don't need it in the cabin, but I can't walk long distances. I'll be grateful for any advice you can offer.  

[daiB]

On 8/26/2024 at 5:47 PM, annieuk said:

Thank you Dai, I was hoping you might see the posting as I remember a lot of your information being very helpful in the past.  I have in fact booked a B deck suite on Arcadia.  May I ask you something else, I've been looking at the Shore Excursions and it seems that although some excursions are marked 'Accessible' they will only allow a wheelchair on board a mini bus or coach.  Each one seems to be saying that scooters are not allowed.  In the past I have taken a scooter on a Shuttle bus, is this not allowed either now?  This is a Northern European and Scandinavian cruise.  If this is the case then I assume that any excursion I book must be a private one, although the website does say that more accessible excursions will be available once on board, although it doesn't make it clear if this includes being able to take a scooter.  My sister-in-law is accompanying me on this cruise and I'm encouraging her to book any excursion that she wishes and not to worry about me.  I just love being on board the ship and this will be wonderful to be back on board after the death of my husband back in 2020.  I hope I can get ashore in some ports even if it means I can't go further afield.  My sister-in-law hasn't been on a cruise before and she's hoping that if she enjoys it, which I'm sure she will, she can encourage her husband to try cruising, although as a dinghy and big boat sailor he has the same thoughts of cruise ships as had my husband, until he tried one and was then hooked.  I can get around without the scooter, I don't need it in the cabin, but I can't walk long distances. I'll be grateful for any advice you can offer.  

Sorry I missed this, I have found that in Europe there are generally accessible coaches/buses. I have not been on many excursions but they have all accommodated my scooter. However you have to be able to get on the coach yourself. Accessible trips generally do not take scooters but shuttle buses generally do. I have not been stopped. Come back if you want more.

[zap99]

On 7/19/2024 at 7:01 PM, ozscotart said:

Yes, just had this conversation with my husband, under the circumstances I think we might stick with Princess, we did enjoy our last P&O cruise but it’s too far hard really 

As Cruise Lines have until January 2025 to implement SOLAS 13, you may find a lot of changes in the next few months on other cruise lines .

[annieuk]

Thank you Dai for the information about scooters on excursions.  I remember taking a scooter on a shuttle bus while we were in Hamburg.  I'm not sure that it's possible to discover which ports have shuttle buses in advance but at least I know that it may be possible to use one when it's available.  I can get onto a coach without any problem, it's walking for more than short distances I have problems with.  

[daiB]

2 hours ago, annieuk said:

Thank you Dai for the information about scooters on excursions.  I remember taking a scooter on a shuttle bus while we were in Hamburg.  I'm not sure that it's possible to discover which ports have shuttle buses in advance but at least I know that it may be possible to use one when it's available.  I can get onto a coach without any problem, it's walking for more than short distances I have problems with.  

If you let me have the ports you are going to I will try to let you know which have shuttles.

[annieuk]

Thank you Dai, very much.  The ports are:

Skagen,

Bornholm

Klaipeda

Stockholm over night

Visby

Riga,

Warnemunde

Copenhagen.

 

I'd be very grateful for any information.  It will certainly help my sister-in-law and me to plan what we want to do.  I don't want to stop her going on any excursions that she'd like to do.  

 

Annie