Cruise Industry Positive Outlook and HAL Ships

[LouChamp]

Aloha. Blessed to cruise since1971 and with HAL since 1976.  I believe economy of scale precludes smaller ships lest they compete with Seabourn. I would love smaller ships but nowadays that is for us to sail on the more upscale lines.  I believe it is the reality.  We have several long cruises with HAL scheduled and I am happy we can travel.

[LAFFNVEGAS]

21 hours ago, EtaC said:

Admittedly pre-covoid but my experience on NS was superior to that on the N. Pearl, an ostensibly larger ship. The bands were fine but they played short sets and they finished around 10 to 11. After that it was pre-recorded 2010 era "dance" music. My wife and I are swing/ballroom/latin  dancers and the only venue with a decent sized floor was the topside forward area that was also used for game shows, bingo often in the evening. In the other areas they played we were squeezed between the band and the tables on a carpet. We also found the dance floors a bit too occupied by those who had clearly been drinking too much. Not agressive, but not aware of their surroundings.

 

By comparison the NS Music Walk acts played until at least 11 or to midnight (again, this may have changed post-covid). When one venue took a break the others began their set so the music was continuous. The dance floor in even the smallest venue was of adequate size and that of BB's was the largest I've seen on a ship. That and the "drunk dancer" factor was minimal.

 

So we'll see how things go on Oosterdam. First post-covid cruise on HAL. No BB's and clearly smaller venues. But to pull this back to the thread topic. I think that the Pinnacle size is the right fit for future HAL ships. I for one would sail on a new ship of similar size and design.

 

Sorry but your comparisons are way off and totally not even comparable with your inaccurate information in regards to comparing NCL Pearl to Holland America Nieuw Statendam.

The NCL Pearl was built in 2006 has 93530 tons and with 1197 cabins. The Holland America Nieuw Statendam  was built in 2018 and is 99.905 tons with 1339 cabins.

I am taking your very first sentence to read that you believe that the Norwegian Pearl was a larger ship????. That is where you are mistaken. To also compare a drastically older ship to one of Holland America's ships is also not a fair comparison. If you were comparing HAL Noordam also built in 2006 with 84k tons then I may be interested in your comparison as long as they were with in the last 12 months. But then again it appears you have not cruise in recent years so any comparisons are really not valid.

Sorry to be the Karen to be jumping all over you but many people on these board are looking for fair comparisons of recent information.

I am a fan of both Holland America and Norwegian but Norwegian tends to get a bad rap here on the HAL board basically from comments as yours that are not relevant or accurate.

I am a firm believer that anyone making comments on their experience that experience needed to be within the last 12 to 18 months.

 

 

 

 

[EtaC]

2 minutes ago, LAFFNVEGAS said:

 

Sorry but your comparisons are way off and totally not even comparable with your inaccurate information in regards to comparing NCL Pearl to Holland America Nieuw Statendam.

The NCL Pearl was built in 2006 has 93530 tons and with 1197 cabins. The Holland America Nieuw Statendam  was built in 2018 and is 99.905 tons with 1339 cabins.

I am taking your very first sentence to read that you believe that the Norwegian Pearl was a larger ship????. That is where you are mistaken. To also compare a drastically older ship to one of Holland America's ships is also not a fair comparison. If you were comparing HAL Noordam also built in 2006 with 84k tons then I may be interested in your comparison as long as they were with in the last 12 months. But then again it appears you have not cruise in recent years so any comparisons are really not valid.

Sorry to be the Karen to be jumping all over you but many people on these board are looking for fair comparisons of recent information.

I am a fan of both Holland America and Norwegian but Norwegian tends to get a bad rap here on the HAL board basically from comments as yours that are not relevant or accurate.

I am a firm believer that anyone making comments on their experience that experience needed to be within the last 12 to 18 months.

 

 

 

 

Fine.We agree to disagree. I had fun on NCL, but the music and dancing on HAL were superior and I don't miss the shows if that's the price to pay for superior music.

[rj59]

The problem with retiring Volendam and/or Zaandam is that it removes several cruise options, such as ones that sail up the Amazon and to Montreal, and it's a more ideal ship for world cruises.  Every line has its own spending patterns and revenue streams, so you can't really compare Carnival and HAL that way. If they go away, there are plenty of smaller-ship options on other lines, and the Vista-class ships only hold 500 more. I was on Zaandam last month, and its small size allowed us to shelter in inside narrow passages going from Ketchikan to Vancouver Island during a severe storm on the open ocean. If they retire Zaandam/Volendam I'd be less likely to book HAL going forward, and beyond that, one of the main reasons I choose HAL is because of the traditional promenade, so if they start replacing all the ships with that feature, the more likely it is I'll go on other lines. 

[cbr663]

An interesting trend noted in the cruise lines annual reports is the large number of first time cruisers now sailing.  Cruise lines are spending heavily on advertising to attract first time cruisers and to also attract new to brand cruisers.  The challenge is can the cruise lines maintain this momentum and can they convert them to repeat cruisers?  Or, is this simply part of the revenge travel trend from the pandemic and these passengers will simply disappear?

[LSegars]

Seems like the future of cruising might be 5000-6000 people sailing around to some private islands and one or two big cities while riding on slides and bumper cars and shopping at the on ship malls. Not what I signed up for.

 

I will not go on cruises shorter than 2 weeks and prefer over one month. I like ships under 2000 but will not sail on anything over 3000. As I look for cruises I am finding very few other than HAL.

Edited July 14 by LSegars

[BermudaBound2014]

19 minutes ago, LSegars said:

Seems like the future of cruising might be 5000-6000 people sailing around to some private islands and one or two big cities while riding on slides and bumper cars and shopping at the on ship malls. Not what I signed up for.

 

I will not go on cruises shorter than 2 weeks and prefer over one month. I like ships under 2000 but will not sail on anything over 3000. As I look for cruises I am finding very few other than HAL.

 

Not necessarily.

 

The July 2024 orderbook just came out and the only new builds added recently were smaller ships of viking, regent 7 seas, and crystal. 

 

It does seem like there is a dichotomy emerging. The mass market lines are all building larger ships. But, the luxury lines are in the game and placing orders continuously. Those of you who like sailing on smaller ships will have plenty of new builds to choose from, but the ticket price will be higher.

 

Ironically NCL is building the most new ships with RCL behind. CCL is in the distance. As mentioned, CCL's new strategy is to increase passenger capacity in Carnival, P&O, and Aida. I don't foresee a new HAL ship on the horizon as quickly as many here do.

 

 

 

Here's a list of the new builds (I don't believe this list has the recent orders added yet, but you can see the trend). Luxury lines are expanding their fleets with smaller ships and the orderbook for smaller ships is not lacking.

https://cruiseindustrynews.com/cruise-ship-orderbook/

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 14 by BermudaBound2014

[stevenr597]

Is there a future for HAL, definitely if it is done right.  

Several comments about it merging with Princess; but Princess is going in a different direction with their new, large Sphere Class Ships, which is starting to drift from a traditional cruise ship to one that has “more of everything” and will attempt to cater to a younger crowd.

HAL is going in the right direction with their Pinnacle Class Ships which are larger, but not too large.

The Cruise line should concentrate on better food, better entertainment, and better service.  It should also look to travel to cruise stops, even in the Caribbean that the traditional Hyper-Large Ships do not visit. In a way trying to take the best from Oceania and Azamara. 

There are still plenty of individuals who want to cruise without the Zip Lines, Roller Coasters, and Wave Pools increasing common on many of the new larger cruise ships.

Just some thoughts. 

[TRLD]

4 hours ago, BermudaBound2014 said:

 

Not necessarily.

 

The July 2024 orderbook just came out and the only new builds added recently were smaller ships of viking, regent 7 seas, and crystal. 

 

It does seem like there is a dichotomy emerging. The mass market lines are all building larger ships. But, the luxury lines are in the game and placing orders continuously. Those of you who like sailing on smaller ships will have plenty of new builds to choose from, but the ticket price will be higher.

 

Ironically NCL is building the most new ships with RCL behind. CCL is in the distance. As mentioned, CCL's new strategy is to increase passenger capacity in Carnival, P&O, and Aida. I don't foresee a new HAL ship on the horizon as quickly as many here do.

 

 

 

Here's a list of the new builds (I don't believe this list has the recent orders added yet, but you can see the trend). Luxury lines are expanding their fleets with smaller ships and the orderbook for smaller ships is not lacking.

https://cruiseindustrynews.com/cruise-ship-orderbook/

 

 

 

 

 

 

NCL has placed a number of orders several years out, but they appear to be mostly placeholders reserving build spots with the orders having the comments that they will depend upon funding being available.  If those builds will  actually occur or not is a question that even NCL cannot answer at this point.

 

 

[BermudaBound2014]

2 minutes ago, TRLD said:

NCL has placed a number of orders several years out, but they appear to be mostly placeholders reserving build spots with the orders having the comments that they will depend upon funding being available.  If those builds will  actually occur or not is a question that even NCL cannot answer at this point.

 

 

 

They are committed to the four new prima class ships thru 2028.

 

They are also committed to the their two new Oceans vessels (in the 86,000 gT range) to be delivered in 2027 and 2029.

 

And we can't forget their Seven Seas orders which will be delivered in 2026 and 2029 (only 850 passengers).

 

It's the 200,000 GT ship orders in 2030 and beyond that are subject to financing. 

 

Could all those builds fall thru? Most certainly. But as of the latest report to the SEC, they are only waiting on funding for ships scheduled to be build after 2030.

 

Now, whether or not NCL will survive is a whole other topic and not appropriate for the HAL forum. 

 

 

 

[shandryl]

On 7/11/2024 at 9:05 AM, Eric from San Diego said:

Passengers so drunk they can barely stand at the safety drill before leaving port. Casinos so crowded there is an hour wait for a slot machine or a seat at a poker table

Sounds like you have experienced this first hand.  What was the Carnival ship was this/called?  Just curious. 

Edited July 14 by shandryl

[TRLD]

1 hour ago, BermudaBound2014 said:

 

They are committed to the four new prima class ships thru 2028.

 

They are also committed to the their two new Oceans vessels (in the 86,000 gT range) to be delivered in 2027 and 2029.

 

And we can't forget their Seven Seas orders which will be delivered in 2026 and 2029 (only 850 passengers).

 

It's the 200,000 GT ship orders in 2030 and beyond that are subject to financing. 

 

Could all those builds fall thru? Most certainly. But as of the latest report to the SEC, they are only waiting on funding for ships scheduled to be build after 2030.

 

Now, whether or not NCL will survive is a whole other topic and not appropriate for the HAL forum. 

 

 

 

You mean the 10Q that included this paragraph

 

Taking into account the six new ship orders with contracts that became effective subsequent to March 31, 2024 (which includes two ships on order for Oceania Cruises that are expected to be cancelled, and excludes orders for four Norwegian Cruise Line ships, which are not yet effective), our minimum annual payments for ship construction contracts, which include non-cancelable contracts or contracts that are cancelable when a replacement agreement is signed with the same party, are as follows (in thousands):

 

[BermudaBound2014]

1 hour ago, TRLD said:

You mean the 10Q that included this paragraph

 

Taking into account the six new ship orders with contracts that became effective subsequent to March 31, 2024 (which includes two ships on order for Oceania Cruises that are expected to be cancelled, and excludes orders for four Norwegian Cruise Line ships, which are not yet effective), our minimum annual payments for ship construction contracts, which include non-cancelable contracts or contracts that are cancelable when a replacement agreement is signed with the same party, are as follows (in thousands):

 

 Nope- I listened to the public discussion QnA of the quarterly.  I’m sure transcripts are available if interested. 
 

You could also read about it here:

https://cruiseindustrynews.com/cruise-news/2024/04/norwegian-cruise-line-holdings-8-new-ships-for-3-brands/

 

 

 

Edited July 15 by BermudaBound2014

[TRLD]

1 hour ago, BermudaBound2014 said:

 Nope- I listened to the public discussion QnA of the quarterly.  I’m sure transcripts are available if interested. 
 

You could also read about it here:

https://cruiseindustrynews.com/cruise-news/2024/04/norwegian-cruise-line-holdings-8-new-ships-for-3-brands/

 

 

 

Except you said last sec filing which is the 10q I referenced, not the cruiseindustrynews article.

 

Of the 2 I would take the 10q since being incorrect there has legal ramifications  Not so much for a news article.

 

[chisoxfan]

13 hours ago, stevenr597 said:

Is there a future for HAL, definitely if it is done right.  

Several comments about it merging with Princess; but Princess is going in a different direction with their new, large Sphere Class Ships, which is starting to drift from a traditional cruise ship to one that has “more of everything” and will attempt to cater to a younger crowd.

HAL is going in the right direction with their Pinnacle Class Ships which are larger, but not too large.

The Cruise line should concentrate on better food, better entertainment, and better service.  It should also look to travel to cruise stops, even in the Caribbean that the traditional Hyper-Large Ships do not visit. In a way trying to take the best from Oceania and Azamara. 

There are still plenty of individuals who want to cruise without the Zip Lines, Roller Coasters, and Wave Pools increasing common on many of the new larger cruise ships.

Just some thoughts. 

Agree with your comments and am excited to try my first Pinnacle class ship this winter. The problem is HAL only has three of these with none on the horizon. They also can't easily join the dedicated suite area which is part of all the new mainstream builds so I am assuming is profitable. Princess could probably adapt somewhat on their ships by making the Sanctuary a suite feature and adding a restaurant. Club Orange is an interesting idea but I see it  revenue neutral. As much as I like it, it becomes a double edged sword to me ie. I would not book a Pinnacle class ship unless I had this feature.

Ignoring debt levels if one had to pick a current mainstream line that you would become CEO of that would provide the easiest path forward I am not sure HAL would be high on the list because its mission statement and demographic is not clear (personally think MSC might have best opportunities).  Better food, service are always positives but not perhaps easy to improve dramatically without negatively impacting pricing. 

HAL really did improve entertainment but for whatever reasons haven't been able to maintain the spectrum (BB Kings, Lincoln Center Stage) on all their ships.

Just some ramblings from a cruiser who would love to see HAL succeed and remain an alternative.

[atexsix]

5 hours ago, chisoxfan said:

Agree with your comments and am excited to try my first Pinnacle class ship this winter. The problem is HAL only has three of these with none on the horizon. They also can't easily join the dedicated suite area which is part of all the new mainstream builds so I am assuming is profitable. Princess could probably adapt somewhat on their ships by making the Sanctuary a suite feature and adding a restaurant. Club Orange is an interesting idea but I see it  revenue neutral. As much as I like it, it becomes a double edged sword to me ie. I would not book a Pinnacle class ship unless I had this feature.

Ignoring debt levels if one had to pick a current mainstream line that you would become CEO of that would provide the easiest path forward I am not sure HAL would be high on the list because its mission statement and demographic is not clear (personally think MSC might have best opportunities).  Better food, service are always positives but not perhaps easy to improve dramatically without negatively impacting pricing. 

HAL really did improve entertainment but for whatever reasons haven't been able to maintain the spectrum (BB Kings, Lincoln Center Stage) on all their ships.

Just some ramblings from a cruiser who would love to see HAL succeed and remain an alternative.

 

We felt Princess had a younger vibe compared to HAL, especially during the evening hours and that's why we had no plans to return to Princess. We enjoyed it, but it wasn't us.

 

We thought the Sanctuary and the entire bow for that matter wasn't designed all that well for Alaska, maybe it works in warmer climates, but to not have a viewing lounge open to everyone in the most prominent part of the ship was a fail in our opinion. On HAL ships, the Crow's Nest is a favorite venue at all hours of the day.  I haven't ever been on an NCL but the pictures I've seen of the huge double deck lounges at the top of the ship look impressive and perfect for Alaska.  Instead Princess herds everybody into an enclosed atrium in the center of the ship, there really wasn't much of a promenade, so what's left to view glaciers?  Your stateroom I guess, assuming you have a balcony.  Or the very top of the ship, which was cold and windy, but pretty much our only choice, we had an aft facing balcony which was amazing, but not the best for glaciers since all the action is forward.   

 

The atrium is a concept that I wish would just go away and I pray HAL never goes down that road. 

[chisoxfan]

8 minutes ago, atexsix said:

 

We felt Princess had a younger vibe compared to HAL, especially during the evening hours and that's why we had no plans to return to Princess. We enjoyed it, but it wasn't us.

 

We thought the Sanctuary and the entire bow for that matter wasn't designed all that well for Alaska, maybe it works in warmer climates, but to not have a viewing lounge open to everyone in the most prominent part of the ship was a fail in our opinion. On HAL ships, the Crow's Nest is a favorite venue at all hours of the day.  I haven't ever been on an NCL but the pictures I've seen of the huge double deck lounges at the top of the ship look impressive and perfect for Alaska.  Instead Princess herds everybody into an enclosed atrium in the center of the ship, there really wasn't much of a promenade, so what's left to view glaciers?  Your stateroom I guess, assuming you have a balcony.  Or the very top of the ship, which was cold and windy, but pretty much our only choice, we had an aft facing balcony which was amazing, but not the best for glaciers since all the action is forward.   

 

The atrium is a concept that I wish would just go away and I pray HAL never goes down that road. 

I would not necessarily pick Princess over HAL balcony cabin vs. balcony cabin just saying in the CCL world perhaps they are the closest family fit if HAL is absorbed. I agree Sanctuary would be a waste of time in a cold weather climate. We were on Westerdam in Alaska and crow's nest was ideal accept there was the pool chair hog syndrome- the morning we were in Glacier Bay with people sleeping on loungers and saving seats.  We loved BB Kings, a highlight which of course is no longer on this ship.

[atexsix]

3 minutes ago, chisoxfan said:

I would not necessarily pick Princess over HAL balcony cabin vs. balcony cabin just saying in the CCL world perhaps they are the closest family fit if HAL is absorbed. I agree Sanctuary would be a waste of time in a cold weather climate. We were on Westerdam in Alaska and crow's nest was ideal accept there was the pool chair hog syndrome- the morning we were in Glacier Bay with people sleeping on loungers and saving seats.  We loved BB Kings, a highlight which of course is no longer on this ship.

And why they would end BB Kings is beyond me.  It really makes me question if people that run cruise lines have ever sailed on any of their own ships.  While we were not BB King's people, every time we walked by it the place was at capacity, they were packed in like sardines.  

 

We sat at the bar during Glacier Bay, since the seats are higher up we had just as good of views as the chair hogs, even from that distance.  And we never had to flag down a server for refreshments.  

[ohioNCLcruiser]

Just got off the N. Statendam and one thing happened that def is a change in direction compared to my previous HAL cruises..a physical fight broke out between passengers. It happened during one of the art classes of all things! 😂🤦‍♂️

[CNSJ]

1 hour ago, ohioNCLcruiser said:

Just got off the N. Statendam and one thing happened that def is a change in direction compared to my previous HAL cruises..a physical fight broke out between passengers. It happened during one of the art classes of all things! 😂🤦‍♂️

I too have had concerns over safety during the art classes and with the knitting groups onboard.  All those long sharp needles and the arguments that break out over whether a cable or rib stitch is best!

[JeffElizabeth]

On 7/11/2024 at 12:33 PM, oaktreerb said:

According to an officer I talked to in June on the Westerdam, HAL is now grouped with Seabourn in the CCL family.  I can’t figure out how that relates to the Princess/HAL group in Alaska, i didn’t ask about that.

 

HAL is currently controlled by their top management and few decisions seem to be made at ship level.  Our recent “Legendary” Alaska  cruise was obviously a top down itinerary with decisions made far away from the location in which we were traveling.  One true Alaska wilderness expert was onboard, others were hired who did not have the skills to present the material without reading from the i-pad.  One lecturer was a volunteer who paid for the cruise and HAL gave him time to tell his fascinating story in the MDR.  He was our second knowledgeable expert.

 

The position of CD and TD have been combined which means there is no credible Travel Director.  There are canned presentations narrated by the CD.  Our native voices presenter was hired two weeks prior to joining the ship and was not onboard throughout the journey.  I think she joined in Seward and disembarked a week later in Anchorage.  Her local knowledge would have been priceless throughout the 28 day journey, considering the vastness of the subject matter.

 

HAL will continue to do the short 7 day casino cruises and is trying to get back into the EXC level of the longer itineraries.  Right now the expertise does not exist.  We all remember those great locations ambassadors of the past who had time to sit at a desk and answer questions and actually feel you were worthy of their time for a discussion.  (Kainoa comes to mind in the Hawaii/Alaska market).

 

I’m not sure HAL needs any more ships at this time.  Ports are overcrowded.  Maybe they just need to develop a mission statement which shows a path forward.  HAL is not the same cruise line as pre-Covid.  HAL has lost its identity.  Short trips, kids free.  Long itineraries focused on EXC experiences for adults.

Well said. We are wait listed on a couple HAL cruises but booked on ones with Princess, Oceania,  and Viking. Looking to see who will be our new line. Our first cruise with Holland was 1997 and we are only 58. 

[Stateroom_Sailor]

I still think it's time for HAL to turn into an Oasis style ship.

[CNSJ]

2 hours ago, Stateroom_Sailor said:

I still think it's time for HAL to turn into an Oasis style ship.

If I wanted to go to a theme park like Universal Studios, I would visit one on land.  Zero desire to sail on one of those 200,000 plus ton floating "resorts".

 

[Stateroom_Sailor]

1 hour ago, CNSJ said:

If I wanted to go to a theme park like Universal Studios, I would visit one on land.  Zero desire to sail on one of those 200,000 plus ton floating "resorts".

 

 

No, I'm talking about a HAL Oasis class!  Imagine a multistory Billboard Onboard, with a moving platform for the dueling pianos.  Four music stages, adding The Rat Pack and Beach Boys themed bands. Introducing the King's Day Orange Divers.  The Orange Party expands to daily Dutch games on deck.  The World Stage becomes a dome.  Explorations Central (EXC) will add interactive Virtual Reality in the Crow's Nest.  Premium acoustically engineering Lincoln Center Stage, that will be repurposed for the most clarity of sound in art auctions at sea.

 

 

[JeffElizabeth]

Strange that cruise lines claim finances are driving them to the giant ships because I also see more expedition style ships out there.  Split the difference and go back to the 1200 person boats?