Complimentary wines

[lincslady]

Yes, just the improved wine list isn't quite enough to tempt me to change to Crystal, somehow.  But certainly enough to feel Seabourn do need to do something about it and hope that all the comments here are being seen by them.

[Vineyard View]

I hope everyone on this thread who, like us, enjoy nice wines, are taking the time to write to Seabourn. The more voices…just maybe someone will notice……..

[florisdekort]

Meanwhile Emirates serves me Dom Perignon, Dom Perignon Rose, Opus One and Chateau d’Yquem in First Class to LA for my upcoming Seabourn Sojoun cruise… 

[Lilly55]

4 hours ago, florisdekort said:

Meanwhile Emirates serves me Dom Perignon, Dom Perignon Rose, Opus One and Chateau d’Yquem in First Class to LA for my upcoming Seabourn Sojoun cruise… 

We fly Emirates frequently but you can’t compare price of Seabourn verandah cabins to Emirates First 😀

[Robisan]

12 hours ago, B-HQC said:

I find the complimentary wines to deplorable (other than the La Scola Gavi which is ok) but in terms of priorities I'm not sure more investment by Seabourn in this area is the way to go.

~~~

What has improved are the offers avaliable - fares have been lower as of late and the OBCs almost comically high. For the past 2 years, I've been able to order a ~$200 bottle of wine every night at dinner, and the list is fairly reasonably priced,...

I respectfully disagree with this. From your perspective and tastes what you suggest works for you, but for many of us for various reasons what works for you makes no sense.

 

DW and I usually want just a single glass of wine at dinner. She generally prefers whites, while I generally prefer reds. We aren't wine aficionados, but like to have what we consider decent, every day drinkable wines at home - typically wines that retail between US$15 and $40+ at Costco (the lower and upper ends usually higher priced bottles on sale). With SB fares now mostly starting at over US$600pp per diem, I don't think it's an unreasonable ultra luxury to expect a glass of wine at dinner akin to what we'd have at home.

 

Purchasing a $200 bottle (or any full bottle) fits none of our preferences. Generous OBC is just a refund of your own money, which effectively means you really are paying for those wines. In any event, we'd prefer to use our OBC refund on excursions and come home to reasonable complementary wines at dinner. If the SB "Ultra Luxury" "All Inclusive" fares require additional upsell payment on board for basic drinkable wines and (coming soon?) true premium spirits, what are we even doing here?

 

[pyffii]

11 hours ago, Robisan said:

I respectfully disagree with this. From your perspective and tastes what you suggest works for you, but for many of us for various reasons what works for you makes no sense.

 

DW and I usually want just a single glass of wine at dinner. She generally prefers whites, while I generally prefer reds. We aren't wine aficionados, but like to have what we consider decent, every day drinkable wines at home - typically wines that retail between US$15 and $40+ at Costco (the lower and upper ends usually higher priced bottles on sale). With SB fares now mostly starting at over US$600pp per diem, I don't think it's an unreasonable ultra luxury to expect a glass of wine at dinner akin to what we'd have at home.

 

Purchasing a $200 bottle (or any full bottle) fits none of our preferences. Generous OBC is just a refund of your own money, which effectively means you really are paying for those wines. In any event, we'd prefer to use our OBC refund on excursions and come home to reasonable complementary wines at dinner. If the SB "Ultra Luxury" "All Inclusive" fares require additional upsell payment on board for basic drinkable wines and (coming soon?) true premium spirits, what are we even doing here?

 

Agree 100%

[B-HQC]

On 9/8/2024 at 4:18 AM, galeforce9 said:

Any recs for the premium list please?

Here are some wines I have recently enjoyed onboard - note that Seabourn's purchasing choices are highly biased towards large "big name" producers likely due to volume and convienence, so not necessairly what I would order on land, but also perfectly pleasant choices:

 

Bollinger Grande Annee

Runiart Blanc de Blanc

Ca dei Frati I Frati (this is the kind of bottle that should in an ideal world be included, but it was 50% off on Venture and cost something like $25)

Cloudy Bay Sauv Blanc

Louis Latour Gervey Chambertin

Louis Latour Nuits St George

Caymus Cab Sauv Napa

 

If Seabourn is reading this, I've now outed myself 🙂

 

[Lilly55]

18 minutes ago, B-HQC said:

Here are some wines I have recently enjoyed onboard - note that Seabourn's purchasing choices are highly biased towards large "big name" producers likely due to volume and convienence, so not necessairly what I would order on land, but also perfectly pleasant choices:

 

 

Ca dei Frati I Frati (this is the kind of bottle that should in an ideal world be included, but it was 50% off on Venture and cost something like $25)

 

 

 

This wine was on the Retreat menu but ran out half way through 30 day Ovation cruise this summer 

[B-HQC]

13 hours ago, Robisan said:

I respectfully disagree with this. From your perspective and tastes what you suggest works for you, but for many of us for various reasons what works for you makes no sense.

 

DW and I usually want just a single glass of wine at dinner. She generally prefers whites, while I generally prefer reds. We aren't wine aficionados, but like to have what we consider decent, every day drinkable wines at home - typically wines that retail between US$15 and $40+ at Costco (the lower and upper ends usually higher priced bottles on sale). With SB fares now mostly starting at over US$600pp per diem, I don't think it's an unreasonable ultra luxury to expect a glass of wine at dinner akin to what we'd have at home.

 

Purchasing a $200 bottle (or any full bottle) fits none of our preferences. Generous OBC is just a refund of your own money, which effectively means you really are paying for those wines. In any event, we'd prefer to use our OBC refund on excursions and come home to reasonable complementary wines at dinner. If the SB "Ultra Luxury" "All Inclusive" fares require additional upsell payment on board for basic drinkable wines and (coming soon?) true premium spirits, what are we even doing here?

 

I believe we're actually on the same page here - in a perfect world, better mid tier wines (say $30 wholesale vs $10) should be included. But is this something you are willing to pay more for? Personally, for me the answer would be no. And having worked in F&B, I can tell you that a $30 bottle costs significantly more than that to provision and serve to the guest. When I sell you a $30 bottle of wine for $119, I can categorically say that my net profit is something in the region of $30, not $89. And that is on land. My bigger issue is that the wine list isn't particulairly thoughtful - when you pay for wine at a restuarant, you are not just buying the bottle, but funding the overall wine program and the somiellier's time, effort, and expertise. In return, I hope to discover something new and exciting - something that isn't possible on Seabourn when most of the offerings are from boring, industrial scale bottlers.

 

OBCs may be my own money in a sense, but I don't choose between a lower upfront fare or more OBCs - these are not the TA freebee $200 OBCs I am talking about - without being specific, it is more like the $2000 OBCs advertising in the emails we get weekly now, in addition to Amex, Virtuoso, and shareholder OBCs. So you can see how it very quickly adds up.

 

And $600pp / day cost isn't cheap, but luxury hotel costs have skyrocketed (2-5x) over the past 3 years, while Seabourn fares haven't and in some cases, have gone in the other direction. Some voyages are avaliable for as low as $350-400pp/day (and I am not talking about TAs or repositions) and there is even an Antarctic voyage (where Seabourn used to demand the highest per diems) currently being advertised at a very reasonable fare, without the "Antarctic premium" we have been acustomed to. All in, I have found that Seabourn is priced at a level lower than past years, while the hard product (Venture and Pursuit) has improved, and now overall offers significantly better value than the compeititon (Explora, Silversea, Regent, Ponant). I would much rather any excess room in the budget be invested in the crew (numbers and training) and in the quality of some food items which I feel at times has deterioriated over the years.

[Lilly55]

1 hour ago, B-HQC said:

And $600pp / day cost isn't cheap, but luxury hotel costs have skyrocketed (2-5x) over the past 3 years, while Seabourn fares haven't and in some cases, have gone in the other direction. Some voyages are avaliable for as low as $350-400pp/day (and I am not talking about TAs or repositions) and there is even an Antarctic voyage (where Seabourn used to demand the highest per diems) currently being advertised at a very reasonable fare, without the "Antarctic premium" we have been acustomed to. All in, I have found that Seabourn is priced at a level lower than past years, while the hard product (Venture and Pursuit) has improved, and now overall offers significantly better value than the compeititon (Explora, Silversea, Regent, Ponant). I would much rather any excess room in the budget be invested in the crew (numbers and training) and in the quality of some food items which I feel at times has deterioriated over the years.

 

Obviously everyone does not feel the same but I am frankly amazed when I see all the complaints about included wines when we receive some of the emails advertising price of a verandah cabin. I have not stayed in any good hotel in last couple of years that has not shot up in price and all are more expensive than the offers in the emails but include no food and drink. 
On the opposite end, the cost we now pay for our usual Wintergarden has doubled in most cases when I look at previous invoices.

 

In the last year the number of new Seabourn cruisers we have met onboard all say they are amazed at how cheap the prices are and they all loved the product.
 

Bottom line is if people are unhappy with Seabourn try other cruise lines. We are happy but had heard people say great things about Cunard Queens Grill so decided to give it a try this year. We had numerous issues with food and would take Seabourn any time. As stated in a previous post I don’t believe there is any fine dining at sea but I pay Michelin star prices for fine dining at home. Someone commented in another post about the wines/champagne on Emirates First. I totally agree they are great but I know the prices I continue to pay for this product reflects the quality of the wines/champagne etc served.

 

Compare Seabourn to Silversea etc, they tend to be far cheaper. Seabourn is a business, you get what you pay for 😀

[stan01]

Many of us don't like this type of change, but if they are going to go with a very basic included drinks menu I hope they make it easy to order a paid alternative (per glass or with a premium drinks package).  Not having anything other than cheap drinks on the ship is a huge mistake.  For example use tap to pay with gratuity included rather than paper slips that have to be printed, signed and gratuity added for each drink. I hope they get this sorted out quickly rather than turn Seabourn into a booze cruise for people who like large amounts of cheap liquor.  I don't want them to go with inclusive shore excursions; that would be a poor value for us and we don't use several other luxury cruise lines because we don't want to pay for that.

 

 

[frantic36]

54 minutes ago, stan01 said:

For example use tap to pay with gratuity included rather than paper slips that have to be printed, signed and gratuity added for each drink.

 

Okay I'm confused. We get revenue wines frequently but we don't add a gratuity to it and if I had a premium whiskey I wouldn't do it then either. Is it a cultural thing as we go by the published concept that no tipping required? We also don't sign any bits of paper we just tell the sommelier what we want and they are put aside and it shows up on our account when we actually consume the bottle. 

Edited September 9 by frantic36

[Lilly55]

14 minutes ago, frantic36 said:

 

Okay I'm confused. We get revenue wines frequently but we don't add a gratuity to it and if I had a premium whiskey I wouldn't do it then either. Is it a cultural thing as we go by the published concept that no tipping required? We also don't sign any bits of paper we just tell the sommelier what we want and they are put aside and it shows up on our account when we actually consume the bottle. 

We too buy revenue wine all the time - never signed for anything - just shows on account following day

[lincslady]

Maybe SB should adopt the way Saga, the British line, works re wine.  The included offerings are not many, usually one of each well known grape type in white, rose and red.  At the most common UK price for drinkable wines, of around £6 to £9 a bottle, plus good sherry (liked by many Brits) and standard spirits and cocktails.  And then definitely  do not describe them as fine wines in your advertising.  At least it would be honest.

[Robisan]

9 hours ago, B-HQC said:

I believe we're actually on the same page here - in a perfect world, better mid tier wines (say $30 wholesale vs $10) should be included. But is this something you are willing to pay more for?

I'm not sure we really are. Without getting into definitions of what is mid tier, there are reasonable, drinkable vintage wines in the $20-30ish retail range (so wholesale at SB volume ~$12-20?) that are a step up from mass market grocery store level and worlds apart from $5 Beringer level. This really should be the minimum for the complementary list if they're going to tout "fine wines" as included. Wine connoisseurs may well looks at these as rubbish, but for a decent portion of passengers they'll meet the requirement.

[Vineyard View]

13 hours ago, Lilly55 said:

 

Obviously everyone does not feel the same but I am frankly amazed when I see all the complaints about included wines when we receive some of the emails advertising price of a verandah cabin. I have not stayed in any good hotel in last couple of years that has not shot up in price and 

 

Compare Seabourn to Silversea etc, they tend to be far cheaper. Seabourn is a business, you get what you pay for 😀

I have looked at the current sale offering all these ‘great promotions’. We asked our TA to check against our already booked cruise just in early July for next Spring in the Mediterranean. It still would cost more for our specific itinerary to more to this ‘better’ sale. 
 

We do not consider SS, etc., because we do not want to pay for included excursions, nor for airfare. For those who do, it’s a viable option. 

I think it is fair to expect decent wines, and VSOP on a luxury line. Otherwise you are denigrating the offering to be more in line with Premium offerings. And I truly believe that yes, Seabourn may be a business, but with these changes we are not getting ‘all’ that we paid for. 

[Vineyard View]

8 hours ago, lincslady said:

Maybe SB should adopt the way Saga, the British line, works re wine.  The included offerings are not many, usually one of each well known grape type in white, rose and red.  At the most common UK price for drinkable wines, of around £6 to £9 a bottle, plus good sherry (liked by many Brits) and standard spirits and cocktails.  And then definitely  do not describe them as fine wines in your advertising.  At least it would be honest.

Oh boy. That level of ‘included wine’ would absolutely warrant a greatly reduced fare in my opinion. 
The $10-$16/btl on current lists is bad enough, but wow. I didn’t know there was lower unless it’s coming out of jugs. Current SB offering isn’t fine wines, but that level is just rot gut. Thanks though, for the heads up - I will never look at Saga!  

[Vineyard View]

5 hours ago, Robisan said:

I'm not sure we really are. Without getting into definitions of what is mid tier, there are reasonable, drinkable vintage wines in the $20-30ish retail range (so wholesale at SB volume ~$12-20?) that are a step up from mass market grocery store level and worlds apart from $5 Beringer level. This really should be the minimum for the complementary list if they're going to tout "fine wines" as included. Wine connoisseurs may well looks at these as rubbish, but for a decent portion of passengers they'll meet the requirement.

I would not argue this point of SB would agree! 

[lincslady]

It was essentially the last sentence of my post that mattered - stop describing them as fine.  It is said that at present SB prices are comparatively low as compared with other top lines, no doubt deliberately to get the business, so it is expectations that matter.  And it seems that this is where they have cut back, and should not have, as most passengers in the past were happy enough to glug them back without more than a few murmurs about them not being 'fine'.  Especially as the standard of cocktails and cognacs etc .was good - which it seems it no longer is.

[Vineyard View]

9 minutes ago, lincslady said:

It was essentially the last sentence of my post that mattered - stop describing them as fine.  It is said that at present SB prices are comparatively low as compared with other top lines, no doubt deliberately to get the business, so it is expectations that matter.  And it seems that this is where they have cut back, and should not have, as most passengers in the past were happy enough to glug them back without more than a few murmurs about them not being 'fine'.  Especially as the standard of cocktails and cognacs etc .was good - which it seems it no longer is.

Totally agree!  I appreciate this and totally agree

[galeforce9]

On 9/1/2024 at 1:56 AM, Vineyard View said:

A note to office of the president by all on here wouldn’t hurt. Maybe it won’t help, but nothing to loose. 

Can I check the email address please?  I sent an email last week but have received no reply 

[marazul]

8 hours ago, galeforce9 said:

Can I check the email address please?  I sent an email last week but have received no reply 

OfficeofthePresident@seabourn.com  

All lower caps works too.

[Vineyard View]

8 hours ago, galeforce9 said:

Can I check the email address please?  I sent an email last week but have received no reply 

OfficeofthePresident@Seabourn.com

 

it took them about that long to send me their cut and pasted response. It was different from what they sent to my TA - both were smoke and mirrors. I will be sharing my thoughts back in the next day or so. Sometimes, for me, it’s better to sit on it for a bit before doing so.  

[brittany12]

None of us should expect anything other than corporate mumbo jumbo from them about our wine comments. I'm sorry to say nothing  will change. 

[2SailingNomads]

We disembarked the Encore September 1st.  As stated in the original post the offered wines were pretty poor.  The worst part was they ran our of so many of the wines.  Roquesante ran out of 4 days into the cruise, 2nd choice Cala out of 3 days later.  Some cheap sweet stuff no one wanted (at least of the folks we knew) to drink.  And my wife did get served Mateus one evening when she asked for a Rose in the Obs bar - why do they even have that and White Zin on-board taking up space?  No cabernet after a week, no pinot nor Malbec.  Now we were in Europe where there are many places you could have the Bar Manager (who did a poor job of staffing the bars when they were busy) or F&B guy (who we never knew who he was) go into town and buy some replacements.  Nope, not like the old days where the Bar Managers would buy local wines and beers.  So on top of really poor provisioning (they know what people like to drink so why not insure those are available) no effort from on-board management to rectify the issue.

 

For lunch we drink the included wines and buy wines for dinner.  The revenue wines are in most cases reasonable especially with the Diamond member discount.  And as mentioned in an earlier post they did have some "special deals" that brought the price of a $200 bottle below $100 

Friends are on the Pursuit now and have issues with the lack of acceptable revenue wines and sent an email to the President and got back a thanks so much for your email blah blah reply.   

 

We are currently on a Scenic river cruise in Bordeaux, here is their wine list: