I Like Art Auctions

[cat616]

I do understand that the Art Auctions on board can be rip offs and as a result of the snake oil salesmanship on the last cruise I was on I declined to purchase anything.

 

On board I have purchased a few inexpensive works at excellent prices considering the Artists. I enjoy these pieces every day. I would purchase again given the opportunity and a salesperson who felt genuine to me. A cruise ship is NOT the place to purchase high ticket investment pieces as you have no easy way of investigating the veracity of the salesman's pitch. It is, for me, an entertaining hour with complimentary sparkly and an opportunity to purchase inexpensive decorative pictures.

 

What I do not understand is other cruisers need to demand they be banned from ships. IMHO BINGO is also a rip off as is the Casino, the Spa, Shore Excursions and the Port Talks. You will not find me insisting they be removed from Ships because I know that lots of people enjoy these activities. Each to his own!

 

I only attend BINGO when a Penthouse Suite is up for grabs. Other than that I stay away from the venue while BINGO is in session. If you do not like artwork displayed for the Auctions you too can stay away from that area for the short time it may be in your way.

 

I ask and encourage Celebrity to do business with reputable third parties. To date they don't seem to mind how the third parties extort money from their captive passengers as long as Celebrity gets their cut!

[TLCOhio]

There are a couple of other threads floating around on these so-called auctions. I didn't spend any time on our cruise at any of the auctions, but I did talk with the guy running it and asked him some questions. The answers were a little fake and floating.

 

Of interest might be this August 5, 2011, story from a Fox Business News writer. His column had this headline: "Cruise Art Auctions - Bad Investment" with these highlights: "a publication for insurance adjusters reported that an insurance company was asked to reimburse a homeowner for a set of stolen artist-signed Dali prints that were purchased on a cruise ship from Park West. The insurance company determined that the prints were not authentic. The owner had relied on the appraisal supplied with the prints when he bought them, but the insurance company determined that according to Dali work catalogues, these works were never signed by the artist. The insurance adjusters used the concept of 'questionable provenance' as enough evidence to lower the estimated value of the prints. There is no shortage of such questionable provenance: Several class action lawsuits filed by art buyers against Park West and the cruise lines will also commence this autumn."

 

Ouch!! To use some art terms, this chopping legal background sounds a little "abstract" and/or "cloudy".

 

Full story at:

http://www.foxbusiness.com/personal-finance/2011/08/05/how-much-is-cruise-line-worth/

 

THANKS! Enjoy! Terry in Ohio

 

Recently back from a June 7-19 Solstice cruise from Barcelona that had stops in Villefranche, ports near Pisa and Rome, Naples, Kotor, Venice and Dubrovnik. Enjoyed great weather and a wonderful trip. Dozens of wonderful visuals with key highlights, tips, comments, etc., on these postings. We are now at 30,598 views for this live/blog re-cap on our first sailing with Celebrity and much on wonderful Barcelona. Check these postings and added info at:

http://www.boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=1426474

[cat616]

Hi Terri in Ohio,

 

I am aware of the very real and valid complaints against the people who run the Art at Sea programs.

 

I am not denying that the Art Auction practices are shady. Art is often sold at HIGHLY inflated prices. That happens in Galleries on land as well. They are preying on people who are gullible and trusting.

 

What I am saying is that they are in like company on cruise ships.

 

The SPA practice of pushing product on you that you do not want or do not need is shady. Going as far as charging it to your room and handing you a full shopping bag that you never asked for or agreed to purchase! It happened to me. They thought I was gullible but I did not let them get away with that.

 

The Casino always put money in their own pockets - the gamblers are just their donors believing that they will be the one to strike the jackpot. Some do, most don't.

 

The BINGO dealers always make the biggest profit. Many people enjoy the activity. They are adults and they decide how to throw away their own money.

 

The Port Talks never tell me much about the Port, they are just pushing stores who have paid them to. I believed them once and ended up missing out on purchasing Russian Craft in Russia because they said it was much better at a later Port - LIES! They knew it was lies but they were getting a bigger "commission" from the stores in the later port. That was the day I wised up to the shady activity going on aboard cruise ships.

 

The Shore Excursions Department sell Tours at HIGHLY inflated prices. We all know this and yet in some Ports we must pay the price if we wish peace of mind about not missing the ship and getting left behind in some very foreign ports. Is this extortion?

 

I like the Art Auctions. I am an adult and I can choose my vices just as others are free to choose their own.

 

The two things I do not understand are

 

1) Why does Celebrity deal with such shady third parties? Surely they can find others out there who can make a profit without questionable practices.

2) Why do other cruisers want to push Art Auctions off of the ships but do not seem to have much of a problem with the other scammers onboard?

[BOB AND PINKIE]

I tend to agree.

We have purchased a number of paintings over the years on X ships, and enjoy them in our home.

They were never more than a few hundred $$ each. were by artists that we were familiar with, and most importantly, WE LIKED THEM.

On our last cruise we bought a signed an numbered Chagall print that we had admired in the past. It was one of the "specials" and I had spotted it prior to the acution. Paid a little over a $100 , and with was delivered to our house a few weeks later, nicely framed.

I am aware that many cruisers were led to believe that they were buying investment type artwork at vastly discounted prices. The normal objection is that it was not worth as much as they were led to believe. Someone with limited knowledge who pays more than he should becuase the person he was buying it from, told him that the buyer was making a killing, deserves what happens to him. Believe that it was W.C. Fields, who siad "You can't cheat on honest man"

Many cruisers enjoy the auctions.

We have given some to our kids, and have a fair amount on display at home. Major problem is that we are running out of wallspace.

And yes, I agree, that Celebrity should insure that , at least, the art work sold on its ships is as represented. Value is one issue, authenticity is quite another.

[TLCOhio]

Wise and thoughtful added comments from cat616. On our Solstice June cruise, the Cruise Director made plugs for the casino, but, for perfect honesty, said "Your donations are appreciated!".

 

Bob & Pinkie made some very good points, including buying what you like. That "buying investment type artwork at vastly discounted prices" pitch is real snake oil from con artists.

 

I would love to hear the Celebrity officials honestly answer and explain their involvement and justification for dealing with some of these people.

 

THANKS! Enjoy! Terry in Ohio

 

Recently back from a June 7-19 Solstice cruise from Barcelona that had stops in Villefranche, ports near Pisa and Rome, Naples, Kotor, Venice and Dubrovnik. Enjoyed great weather and a wonderful trip. Dozens of wonderful visuals with key highlights, tips, comments, etc., on these postings. We are now at 30,598 views for this live/blog re-cap on our first sailing with Celebrity and much on wonderful Barcelona. Check these postings and added info at:

http://www.boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=1426474

[atb]

We have been on too many cruises - where the art auction takes over entire lounge / sitting areas. Which is OK when the weather is nice - and you can enjoy the outside of the ship.

But when the weather is cold / rainy / windy - etc. The number of locations available to enjoy inside is further diminished by the art auction. We have been chased from the Rendevous Lounge - because they were setting up for an art auction. Chasing at 10am for a 1pm art auction.

Bingo is in the theatre - which is not an available venue, easily avoided.

That has always been my complaint.

Go set up in the theatre - and keep the activity confined.

[CathyCruises]

I believe the W.C. Fields quote is "There's a sucker born every minute." I'm serious.

[Hlitner]

In the early days of the Art Auctions they were often a lot of fun...although still a big scam. We still remember one auctioneer who called himself "Big Stu" who was an ex NBA player who turned to art auctions to make a living. Big Stu was the highlight of the cruise (the best entertainer on the ship) and his auctions were standing room only. Everyone had lots of fun, only fools took any of seriously, and many folks bought the lesser prices works. But in recent years the auctioneers starting taking themselves seriously (many will tell you they are real art experts) and it became a big profit center. Park West (used by many cruise lines) became the target of multiple law suits and a popular online topic (just Google "Park West scam.). We agree that BINGO is about as bad as the auctions. BINGO used to be a fun activity run for the benefit of entertaining passengers. The the crusie lines realized they could make some real money with BINGO, and now you are asked to go along with some of the BINGO scams such as when they advertise huge jackpots that are nearly impossible to win (sounds like a county fair). We have actually found we can take cruises and avoid the art auctions, BINGO, and even the casino without missing a beat. As to the shore excursions, most of my 9000 plus posts are dedicated to helping folks who want to avoid excursions in favor of DIY travel. We recently came off a 41 day cruise and did not spend one cent for BINGO, Art Auctions, in the Casino, etc. We did take 1 excursion (out of 23 ports) because it was the only way to get off the ship in Murmansk. I do respect folks that prefer to spend $100 for an excursion they could do on their own for $5...but I guess it's because we are stockholders in the cruise lines and like to see them contribute to the bottom line :)

 

Hank

P.S. We sometimes enjoyed the Art Auctions when the "free champagne" was pretty good stuff. But now they generally serve $2 a bottle rot gut mystery champagne.... Tis sad

[eigig]

My husband and I have been on many cruises (Cunard and one HAL and will be on our first Celebrity this winter) and we never even looked at the art auctions for years-- in fact, we scoffed them.

then, several years ago, we were cruising on the QM2 and were having lunch in the Winter Garden whilst they were setting up the art displays. We went over to look and really got interested so we attended the "auction". We learned alot (difference between Giclees and originals etc) that we did not know and several nights later purchased an original oil on canvas Shavaiko for about $3,000. We enjoyed it so much in our home that we looked forward to our next buying opportunity--

 

I must mention at this point that we live in NYC and have ample access to art galleries. The wonderful part of buying art on a cruise is that one can think about it and go at all hours of the day/night to look at it once again and once again and yet again before buying it. We do not have that luxury on land. I am not likely to make the time to go to the gallery again and so it is a "spot" decision and I hate those.

 

On our next cruise (also QM2) we purchased another original "mixed media" piece by Gogli ((about $2,600) and again we enjoy greeting this piece each morning as we make our way to the coffee pot. Next, (on Queen Victoria) we bought an original Behrens (At Lake Como for about $3,500) it is smaller than his usual works and fit our available NYC wallspace and we love it so!

 

On our last cruise we did not see anything we loved so we passed. This summer I was in Rome and bought an oil on canvas from an artist in Piazza Navonna. I loved the piece and it had a depiction of our family name so I could not resist and I love it. I did learn though that some of the pieces on the ships (originals by lesser known artists) are a great bargain when one considers the quality of the frame. It cost me about $300 to purchase and frame the Piazza Navonna oil (at Michaels) and it would have cost me just as much for a few artists' works that I have contemplated buying onboard.

 

It is only a ripoff if you get sucked in to the hype. In reality, there are some really good pieces here (stick to originals) and stick to what you would love to see everyday. In that case, you cannot go wrong.

 

 

This winter my husband and I will be on our first Celebrity cruise (Silhoutte out of NJ in January) and are looking forward to the art auctions

 

Can you tell me anything about them that is different from Cunard or anything we should look for?

Thanks for starting this very positive thread about art auctions-- we never would have had the opportunity to be exposed to art (we were science and finance majors) if it were not for the cruise ship art auction and honestly we value some (not all) of the art dealer's expertise. Sometimes you get really good and talented people and you learn alot.

best,

eigig

[kitty9]

How do you know for sure that the art is "real" and not fake? There have been numerous lawsuits against the cruise ship auction places, that have awarded hundreds of thousands of dollars to consumers who have been bilked out of thousands of dollars when they found out the supposed real, high end art, was actually fakes. I mean, you see so many Picasso pieces, that they can't possibly be real. They had been touted as being fine originals, when in fact, they are definitely fakes.

 

Recently, one of the cruise line auction houses was sued by National Fine Art Registry. They maintained that this art auction place was fraudulently selling art as famous originals. The NFAR won a $500,000 judgement against the auction house.

 

So, I still maintain that these places sell a lot of fake art, and there are people who think they are getting originals, by famous artists, when in fact they're getting total fakes. And that's my problem with art auctions at sea. Most who cruise have no idea what real art is, and they're getting screwed.

 

I collect original cel art by Disney, and so I think I know a real from a fake. I've not yet found a real cel on a ship, but they maintain they are the real thing, used in the films. But, they are not. They are reproductions of the real cels, and definitely not true cel art.

[miched]

I believe the W.C. Fields quote is "There's a sucker born every minute." I'm serious.

 

I think it was originally by P. T. Barnum but no matter it is the truth.

 

I like the line in the movie "The Flim, Flam Man". He told his tag a long buddy that you can't cheat an honest man. The only reason you can cheat someone is because they think that they are cheating you.

 

There is a lot of truth in that. I feel that is how all those shops in the ports sell so much. Everyone is made to think that they are getting something too good to pass up because it is worth way more.

 

 

 

 

.

[Orator]

In the early days of the Art Auctions they were often a lot of fun...although still a big scam. We still remember one auctioneer who called himself "Big Stu" who was an ex NBA player who turned to art auctions to make a living. Big Stu was the highlight of the cruise (the best entertainer on the ship) and his auctions were standing room only. Everyone had lots of fun, only fools took any of seriously, and many folks bought the lesser prices works. But in recent years the auctioneers starting taking themselves seriously (many will tell you they are real art experts) and it became a big profit center. Park West (used by many cruise lines) became the target of multiple law suits and a popular online topic (just Google "Park West scam.). We agree that BINGO is about as bad as the auctions. BINGO used to be a fun activity run for the benefit of entertaining passengers. The the crusie lines realized they could make some real money with BINGO, and now you are asked to go along with some of the BINGO scams such as when they advertise huge jackpots that are nearly impossible to win (sounds like a county fair). We have actually found we can take cruises and avoid the art auctions, BINGO, and even the casino without missing a beat. As to the shore excursions, most of my 9000 plus posts are dedicated to helping folks who want to avoid excursions in favor of DIY travel. We recently came off a 41 day cruise and did not spend one cent for BINGO, Art Auctions, in the Casino, etc. We did take 1 excursion (out of 23 ports) because it was the only way to get off the ship in Murmansk. I do respect folks that prefer to spend $100 for an excursion they could do on their own for $5...but I guess it's because we are stockholders in the cruise lines and like to see them contribute to the bottom line :)

 

Hank

P.S. We sometimes enjoyed the Art Auctions when the "free champagne" was pretty good stuff. But now they generally serve $2 a bottle rot gut mystery champagne.... Tis sad

 

Was "Big Stu" on Princess. I remember an ex-NBA player doing the auction. If you guessed his team, you won a prize. Think he played for the Knicks.

[CathyCruises]

I think it was originally by P. T. Barnum but no matter it is the truth.

 

.

 

Of course you are correct--I KNEW something was bothering me about that!

[eigig]

After we bought the Shavaiko original, I actually met Viktor Shavaiko at the NYC Art Fair (Javits Center) and he remembered the piece I bought and was glad to know where it was.

 

Before we purchased the Behrens original, I emailed the artist's wife and manager and she assured me that they would fix the "bubbling" in the painting. She made great pains to assure me that it would go to their studio first for inspection and repair before being framed. I had several subsequent emails from her (Judy) so I trust that this is not an imposter.

 

The Gogli I have no idea about but trust that it is an original

 

We have paperwork on all

 

My question is-- are the art auctions on Celebrity of a lower caliber than those on Cunard (Park West)?

Seems a lot of reaction to the topic

thanks

[bighairtexan]

Have you googled Park West Gallery complaints and seen all the myriad complaints and suits against the company? I wouldn't call them "high caliber" by any stretch. There are various class action law suits against them as well as RICO allegations and individual law suits.

[SusieV]

*shrugs* My opinion on the art auctions? If you genuinely LIKE the art, and you are buying it because you like to look at it, not because you care if it's worth anything or if it's real, then have at it. Why not? I wouldn't buy art as an investment anymore than I would buy jewelry as an investment.

 

We always do take a walk through the gallery but we've never found anything that we liked enough to consider buying. We also attended the wine auctions and were perfectly willing to buy except that they couldn't ship to Canada and would not allow us to take the bottles home with us. I still can't understand why that was a problem but I guess it saved us some money. Again, we weren't buying the wine because we were thinking to get a steal- we were looking at trying some interesting vintages we hadn't seen before and thought for a few $$ a case, why not.

 

I don't really see anything wrong with art auctions being onboard. It would be nice if things were legit but then again, caveat emptor.

[kitty9]

After we bought the Shavaiko original, I actually met Viktor Shavaiko at the NYC Art Fair (Javits Center) and he remembered the piece I bought and was glad to know

 

My question is-- are the art auctions on Celebrity of a lower caliber than those on Cunard (Park West)?

Seems a lot of reaction to the topic

thanks

 

There's no way for you to know if the Shavaiko is real. For all you know, they could have mass produced his work a hundred times over and sold them as originals. That's how these companies work. They hire artists to copy real art and then sell them as originals. I'm not saying you got taken, but knowing the bad reputation Park West has, and all the lawsuits against them, you have to wonder.

 

It's Park West that's been sued numerous times for selling fakes. For all anyone knows, most of Park West's items could be fake. They are HARDLY reputable. Did you know there are currently 6 nationwide class action lawsuits against Park West for fraudulent sales? And the suit I talked about where the National Art Registry sued, and won $500,000. It was against Park West. I would hardly call Park West high caliber.

[Oville]

Oh my word, we meet Stu Shein/Shine on a RCI ship a couple of years ago. He wore his "NBA" clothes including sneakers everywhere and claimed he played for the NY Knicks. He and his wife hung out in the Concierge Lounge each evening.

 

Tried Googling his name and the Knicks (including rosters) when we returned home and got nothing re: the Knicks. Just did it again and found a few Cruise Critic posts, not overly flattering.

 

Thanks, you've made my night.

[BOB AND PINKIE]

"You Can't Cheat an Honest Man", was actually the title of a 1939 movie starring W.C. Field.

Not going to take the time now it see if he actually said the phrase.

[jediwebdude]

We just returned from the Carnival Triumph cruise out of N.O. and I was surprised to see that Park West had a gallery and art auction on the ship. After all the years of Park West scandal in the news, I did not expect to find Carnival giving the company a presence.

 

List of lawsuits against Park West, including one about forged Dali prints:

http://www.fineartregistry.com/articles/park-west-gallery-lawsuits/

 

Also some articles by the registry:

http://www.fineartregistry.com/articles/far_investigates/art-auction-investigation.php

 

I noticed the gallery had some of the never-ending supply of Peter Max variation prints. I like Peter's work and if I had the means to do so, I would gladly own one of Peter's originals from the 1970s. My issue with the practices for selling Peter Max prints and Thomas Kinkade prints is the claim by the sales/auctioneer folk that the prints are investments. Furthermore, some of the "victims" accounts in the above mentioned articles claim that the work delivered to them was not the work they purchased.

 

From an economics standpoint, the market has been saturated with numerous variations and classifications of these works, to the point where they are not an investment. The original works for a living notable artist are of course quite valuable. Very limited editions/runs of prints can also be a good investment. But when "very limited" becomes "very many types of limited," then the market has a reverse effect. This is common with many collectible trends...when the market becomes saturated, demand decreases and value diminishes.

 

This story by a cruise customer purchasing Peter Max prints is a bit of an eye opener:

http://www.fineartregistry.com/articles/far_investigates/parkwest-auction-victim.php

 

Taking a look at the secondary market listings for Peter Max prints on ArtBrokerage.com, at the time of this post, there were 263 items listed. On eBay, over 700 Peter Max items in the art section. I interpret this as evidence of a saturated market for Peter Max prints:

http://www.artbrokerage.com/artist/Peter-Max/prints

 

A great book on art economics is The $12 Million Stuffed Shark: The Curious Economics of Contemporary Art

 

Personally, I don't see a problem with buying an art print on a cruise ship if you are doing so for personal pleasure. If the print is touted as an investment and thus offered for thousands of dollars, I encourage caustion. The prints on cruise ships are usually available on land...I think it is wise to research the price.

[LegalCat]

As some others have said, if you like it and the price is right, and you aren't buying it for investment purposes, then go ahead and buy it... but you should always be an educated consumer.

 

We have bought numerous prints from Park West though... two were problems.. one was a Peter Max that we almost immediately regretted and were able to sell it for what we paid for it... another was a Romero Britto sofa sized one that was framed etc and that had 3d type cutouts mounted on foam blocks which started falling off after a short period of time... Park West actually ended up giving us a full refund for the Britto one which we happily accepted...

 

I will say that we have probably more than a dozen prints (I say prints for lack of a better word, I don't know if they are prints or seriolithographs or something else, but not originals or oil paintings or anything like that) in our home from cruise auctions... most from an artist called Shari Erikson... we got them all when Park West was only starting to carry her stuff and got some of them for $50 and most of them for $100 each... I really loved them and we thought they were great deals... that combined with 60% off framing at our local art store and we felt they were really fantastic 'investments'... they certainly aren't specifically insured or anything like that and I'm not planning to try to get rich off them for my retirement or anything along those lines lol... but I really really liked them and they look great on my walls...

[negc]

After we bought the Shavaiko original, I actually met Viktor Shavaiko at the NYC Art Fair (Javits Center) and he remembered the piece I bought and was glad to know where it was.

 

Before we purchased the Behrens original, I emailed the artist's wife and manager and she assured me that they would fix the "bubbling" in the painting. She made great pains to assure me that it would go to their studio first for inspection and repair before being framed. I had several subsequent emails from her (Judy) so I trust that this is not an imposter.

 

The Gogli I have no idea about but trust that it is an original

 

We have paperwork on all

 

My question is-- are the art auctions on Celebrity of a lower caliber than those on Cunard (Park West)?

Seems a lot of reaction to the topic

thanks

Park West seems to be one company that has had more than its share of law suits and complaints, which is the reason that lines such as Royal Caribbean and Celebrity discontinued their relationship with them. Hard to believe that any art auction company could be considered to be "of a lower caliber".:rolleyes:

 

I think that the answer to the poster's question as to why so many object to the onboard art auctions but not to bingo, the casino,or the spa services, is that the art auctions have been so "in your face", taking over public space and pretty much intruding into passenger's daily activities and disrupting almost everything in their vicinity. I know that when art auctions were held in the Centrum of Radiance class ships, there was no escaping them if you were anywhere on the several decks overlooking the Centrum. Haven't missed them at all since they were removed from the ships we sail on.:)