Interesting discussion with Travel Agent

[Beachdude]

Sally and I were considering an Alaskan cruise next month because of the low low prices, so we talked to our TA about it. In the discussion she said all the cruise lines are suffering from the Carnival situation earlier this year, not just Carnival. As a result, the rates are much cheaper through the industry. They are not filling the ships.

 

Ironically she has seen an increase in bookings with Carnival, so it appears their dirt cheap fares are working. The bad news for Carnival is most of the customers she books for Carnival are past customers, not new ones. Since Carnivals bread and butter is first time passengers, they still have a long way to go, but apparently so do all the lines. Our TA thinks the Cruise industry is in a worst slump now than they were a few years ago when the economy took a dive.

 

I guess the cheaper fares are good news for those of us who like to cruise.

 

Burt

[sail7seas]

Interesting and thanks for sharing but, of course, that is only one person's opinion.

 

I'd like to hear from a lot of TA's on the subject before I come to any conclusions.

I'm not sure Carnial's mishaps as much to blame for any downturn in cruise business as much as security in the future economy and finances as a whole.

 

[BruceMuzz]

Sally and I were considering an Alaskan cruise next month because of the low low prices, so we talked to our TA about it. In the discussion she said all the cruise lines are suffering from the Carnival situation earlier this year, not just Carnival. As a result, the rates are much cheaper through the industry. They are not filling the ships.

 

Ironically she has seen an increase in bookings with Carnival, so it appears their dirt cheap fares are working. The bad news for Carnival is most of the customers she books for Carnival are past customers, not new ones. Since Carnivals bread and butter is first time passengers, they still have a long way to go, but apparently so do all the lines. Our TA thinks the Cruise industry is in a worst slump now than they were a few years ago when the economy took a dive.

 

I guess the cheaper fares are good news for those of us who like to cruise.

 

Burt

 

You and your agent are contradicting youselves.

1. First you say "They are not filling their ships"

2. Then you say "...she has seen an increase in bookings with Carnival, so it appears their dirt cheap fares are working."

 

Statement #2 was the correct one.

 

For the past several years - even before Carnival's recent PR problems - all the Carnival Brands adopted an internal policy that ALL staterooms MUST be sold on every sailing.

With very few exceptions, that has been happening for quite some time.

 

The bad news for Alaska sailings is the demographic attracted to the lower fares.

Many of these people have no money, and only bought an alaska cruise because it appears cheaper than staying home.

Once onboard, they realize that cruising in Alaska is expensive if you want to have a few drinks, take tours, or buy something ashore.

Many Alaska cruisers this season spend most of their vacation complaining about how everything is so expensive.

That's not surprising. Almost anything they want to buy onboard or ashore will cost them more than the price of the cruise ticket.

[marco]

I think too, Alaska cruises are a "deal" right now because the airfare is so high. When you add the inexpensive cruise with the airfare, it's not too bad a price but if the cruise fare is high, and the airfare is high, it makes looking at other vacation options much more appealing.

[Beachdude]

You and your agent are contradicting youselves.

1. First you say "They are not filling their ships"

2. Then you say "...she has seen an increase in bookings with Carnival, so it appears their dirt cheap fares are working."

.

 

LOL, if you want to believe giving away rooms to fill ships translates into success, I guess you have a point.

 

Carnival's current problem is that their business model revolves around the first time cruisers. That is currently a big hurdle to overcome. But come-on folks, that Carnival didn't drive away experienced cruisers is really good news for them and the industry. It really could be a lot worse.

 

As for whether this is a result of Carnival, there has been no other significant event recently that would cause such a dramatic change in the industry so quickly. Still not sure? Go a poll a few strangers off the street and ask them how they feel about cruising. Just this morning on my way to work I iistened to two Radio DJs calling all cruisers stupid. They specifically used the Carnival inccidents to justify their reasoning.

 

Personally I'm upbeat from hearing about Carnival. But I'm also realistic, the industry has a ways to go and I think it will be slow.

[mizLORInj]

We currently are booked on two Carnival cruises sailing soon. Both have had significant price drops since we booked earlier this year--which rarely happened for us in the past. Not a complaint by any means!

So I'd say they are not filling up like they did in the past--at least on some cruises.

 

I know people who have no interest in taking a cruise for whatever reason. I'm glad we have choices. I choose to cruise!

[Husky61]

You and your agent are contradicting youselves.

1. First you say "They are not filling their ships"

2. Then you say "...she has seen an increase in bookings with Carnival, so it appears their dirt cheap fares are working."

 

Statement #2 was the correct one.

 

For the past several years - even before Carnival's recent PR problems - all the Carnival Brands adopted an internal policy that ALL staterooms MUST be sold on every sailing.

With very few exceptions, that has been happening for quite some time.

 

The bad news for Alaska sailings is the demographic attracted to the lower fares.

Many of these people have no money, and only bought an alaska cruise because it appears cheaper than staying home.

Once onboard, they realize that cruising in Alaska is expensive if you want to have a few drinks, take tours, or buy something ashore.

Many Alaska cruisers this season spend most of their vacation complaining about how everything is so expensive.

That's not surprising. Almost anything they want to buy onboard or ashore will cost them more than the price of the cruise ticket.

 

I think the op was referring to the entire cruise industry when she said they are not filling their ships, not just Carnival.:)

[sail7seas]

How much do you blame the Carnival incidents/Costa Concordia for low prices in order to fill the cabins vs the general economy, confidence of the average American working family in their financial future and the general availability for those folks to spend disposable income on cruises?

[BruceMuzz]

LOL, if you want to believe giving away rooms to fill ships translates into success, I guess you have a point.

 

Carnival's current problem is that their business model revolves around the first time cruisers. That is currently a big hurdle to overcome. But come-on folks, that Carnival didn't drive away experienced cruisers is really good news for them and the industry. It really could be a lot worse.

 

As for whether this is a result of Carnival, there has been no other significant event recently that would cause such a dramatic change in the industry so quickly. Still not sure? Go a poll a few strangers off the street and ask them how they feel about cruising. Just this morning on my way to work I iistened to two Radio DJs calling all cruisers stupid. They specifically used the Carnival inccidents to justify their reasoning.

 

Personally I'm upbeat from hearing about Carnival. But I'm also realistic, the industry has a ways to go and I think it will be slow.

 

I never believed that giving away staterooms translates to success. But the cruise lines marketing geniuses think otherwise.

 

For the past 21 consecutive years Carnival Cruise Line (not Carnival Corp) has been the most financially successful line in the world. Why?

Because they are the ONLY cruise line that relies primarily on first time cruisers.

First timers are the only ones spending money onboard ships these days.

Their marketing model does not want you to come back for a second cruise. They would rather have a newbie take your place.

 

The traditional lines like Cunard, HAL, and Princess focus on repeat customers - most of whom spend very little money onboard after the first few cruises.

Which are the least profitable mass market cruise lines in the Carnival Group?

Cunard, HAL, and Princess.

Do you see a trend here?

 

Where do mass market cruise lines make their profits?

There is only one place - onboard revenues.

We sell most cruises at cost - or at a loss.

Is this a smart business model? I don't think so, but that's the way it is now.

[smeyer418]

I never believed that giving away staterooms translates to success. But the cruise lines marketing geniuses think otherwise.

 

For the past 21 consecutive years Carnival Cruise Line (not Carnival Corp) has been the most financially successful line in the world. Why?

Because they are the ONLY cruise line that relies primarily on first time cruisers.

First timers are the only ones spending money onboard ships these days.

Their marketing model does not want you to come back for a second cruise. They would rather have a newbie take your place.

 

The traditional lines like Cunard, HAL, and Princess focus on repeat customers - most of whom spend very little money onboard after the first few cruises.

Which are the least profitable mass market cruise lines in the Carnival Group?

Cunard, HAL, and Princess.

Do you see a trend here?

 

Where do mass market cruise lines make their profits?

There is only one place - onboard revenues.

We sell most cruises at cost - or at a loss.

Is this a smart business model? I don't think so, but that's the way it is now.

 

funny you leave X out, which does seem to like repeat guests. The only place I disagree with you is with guests who are heavy gamblers no matter if its their first cruise or not. or people who compulsively buy art.

[BruceMuzz]

funny you leave X out, which does seem to like repeat guests. The only place I disagree with you is with guests who are heavy gamblers no matter if its their first cruise or not. or people who compulsively buy art.

 

I intentionally omitted Celebrity as they are a bit of a hybrid.

 

They know as well as the rest of us that frequent cruisers are the path to bankruptcy.

But they have expanded so quickly that it is easier for them to keep their ships full if they market to the newbies, but still deliver all the platitudes to the repeaters that they still love them and want them back.,

As soon as their customer base increases to match their bed count, they will jettison the repeaters like everyone else is gradually doing.

[sail7seas]

So why do PCC's (Personal Cruise Consultants or Cruise Planners or whatever your cruise line calls them) make all these cold calls to repeaters looking for their business?

Why not take a phone book and call random people who likely have never cruised rather than the unwanted masses of repeaters?

 

[luddite]

They don't like to sail with empty cabins. That doesn't present a good image.

Theatres don't like empty seats and will resort give-aways or fire sales to fill the seats. It's called papering the house. Same as what the cruise lines do.

 

With economy down the toilet and no good hope for improvement on the horizon it is frankly surprising that they can fill the cabins at any price.

[smeyer418]

They don't like to sail with empty cabins. That doesn't present a good image.

Theatres don't like empty seats and will resort give-aways or fire sales to fill the seats. It's called papering the house. Same as what the cruise lines do.

 

With economy down the toilet and no good hope for improvement on the horizon it is frankly surprising that they can fill the cabins at any price.

actually some cruise lines do refuse to cut prices to sell empty cabins...

[smeyer418]

I intentionally omitted Celebrity as they are a bit of a hybrid.

 

They know as well as the rest of us that frequent cruisers are the path to bankruptcy.

....

really? why does Vegas cater to high roller repeaters?

I haven't heard of debt to a cruise line being a high bankruptcy issue...and most of the time the cruise line collects. Its the credit card that holds the debt.

[Hlitner]

The cruise lines are really caught in a Catch 22 (not just Carnival). A big problem is over saturation in some markets, many cruise berths, and high air fares. Some cruise lines have cut their fares to attract cruisers or packaged the cruises with air. But when you cut fares, you also need to cut costs...and this has led to some major cut-backs at several cruise lines. Jumbo shrimp is replaced by small shrimp and then no shrimp. Food portions are smaller (not a bad thing). Entertainment budgets have been cut (it shows). Excursion prices have increased to near ridiculous amounts and the onboard port lecturers (often paid by the tour companies) do their best to convince passengers to book cruise line excursions rather then lower cost private excursions and even lower cost do it yourself. Some cruise lines have taken drastic steps to reduce the speed of their ships which saves fuel and money. They have reduced times in ports, reduced the number of ports, increased the number of days for crossing an ocean. The Queen Mary 2 was designed to cross the Atlantic in 5 days...but now will normally take 7 (this saves lots of money). Some cruise lines have increased the number of overnights (2 or even 3 day stays) in certain ports. By the way, these overnights are not always a bad thing...but they do allow a cruise line to add days to a cruise without spending anything on fuel.

 

As to empty cabins (called berths in the industry) the lines know that an empty berth is "opportunity lost revenue." They now try some innovative ways to fill those berths without reducing the cost for most passengers. Last minute deals are generally available to only new bookings...and some lines offer last minute discounts to specific groups (i.e. seniors, veterans, teachers, firefighters. etc). The idea is to sell the empty berths at lower prices without having to reduce the price of those who have already booked.

 

Hank

[Krazy Kruizers]

So why do PCC's (Personal Cruise Consultants or Cruise Planners or whatever your cruise line calls them) make all these cold calls to repeaters looking for their business?

Why not take a phone book and call random people who likely have never cruised rather than the unwanted masses of repeaters?

 

 

We don't get phone books anymore -- haven't for a few years since we switched from Verizon to Comcast.

If I need to hunt for restaurants, stores, etc. -- I have to hunt them on the Internet.

[Krazy Kruizers]

To the OP

I don't see any cheap prices on HAL. We had booked 2 cruises for 2014. We have already cancelled one of them -- not because of price - but we just didn't fell like doing that cruise.

[dorisis]

I am booked on 5 cruises. Two for later this year and three for next year. NONE of the fares have gone down and several have gone up. What am I doing wrong???

[Markanddonna]

We had an inside room booked on our HAL cruise (first timers on HAL) and received upsell emails for a few weeks with all sort of suites and verandahs available. We finally bit on the verandah and the total cost was about half the then listed rate. So, it was about $900 pp with it being listed at about $1,700pp online. So, some of the great rates are not really out there. I'm sure it is easier to sell my inside at the last minute versus one of the more expensive cabins.

[RSLeesburg]

I have not seen rates come down on RCI; however, it could be that rates are coming down in markets where there is a saturation and/or the area requires air travel. Florida seems to have a ton of choices in lines/itineraries, as does Alaska. However, sail out of Baltimore or Bayonne, not as much choice so no need to reduce rates, and because these ports can draw lots of locals, air fare is not a factor. Med cruise - high airfares, and lots of choices. See a trend. I am sure that the Carnival/Costa problems have discouraged a lot of people from trying their first cruise, but there are still a lot like me - willing to take their first cruise (my first cruise will be in Sept on the Grandeur).

[sail7seas]

We don't get phone books anymore -- haven't for a few years since we switched from Verizon to Comcast.

 

If I need to hunt for restaurants, stores, etc. -- I have to hunt them on the Internet.

 

While we still get phone books delivered, one could take the comment a little more figuratively and a little less literally. :D

It was making a point about PCC's at HAL still seeking the business of repeaters.

 

 

 

We had an inside room booked on our HAL cruise (first timers on HAL) and received upsell emails for a few weeks with all sort of suites and verandahs available. We finally bit on the verandah and the total cost was about half the then listed rate. So, it was about $900 pp with it being listed at about $1,700pp online. So, some of the great rates are not really out there. I'm sure it is easier to sell my inside at the last minute versus one of the more expensive cabins.

 

Yes. It is easier for the cruise line to sell the less costly cabin. If they get you to buy up to a higher category they get to sell your cabin to someone else and it's easier the lower the cost. Some of those inside cabins could be sold three, four or more times for the same cruise. :)

 

[John Bull]

So why do PCC's (Personal Cruise Consultants or Cruise Planners or whatever your cruise line calls them) make all these cold calls to repeaters looking for their business?

Why not take a phone book and call random people who likely have never cruised rather than the unwanted masses of repeaters?

 

 

 

Was thinking much the same thing myself.

My letterbox & in-box are both jammed with junk mail from cruise lines. Probably my phone too if I didn't have screening.

Oh yes, they want me to book another cruise. Even though their records will show that I'm a low on-board spender.

 

 

The cruise lines are really caught in a Catch 22 (not just Carnival). A big problem is over saturation in some markets, many cruise berths, and high air fares. Some cruise lines have cut their fares to attract cruisers or packaged the cruises with air. But when you cut fares, you also need to cut costs...and this has led to some major cut-backs at several cruise lines. Jumbo shrimp is replaced by small shrimp and then no shrimp. Food portions are smaller (not a bad thing). Entertainment budgets have been cut (it shows). Excursion prices have increased to near ridiculous amounts and the onboard port lecturers (often paid by the tour companies) do their best to convince passengers to book cruise line excursions rather then lower cost private excursions and even lower cost do it yourself. Some cruise lines have taken drastic steps to reduce the speed of their ships which saves fuel and money. They have reduced times in ports, reduced the number of ports, increased the number of days for crossing an ocean. The Queen Mary 2 was designed to cross the Atlantic in 5 days...but now will normally take 7 (this saves lots of money). Some cruise lines have increased the number of overnights (2 or even 3 day stays) in certain ports. By the way, these overnights are not always a bad thing...but they do allow a cruise line to add days to a cruise without spending anything on fuel.

 

As to empty cabins (called berths in the industry) the lines know that an empty berth is "opportunity lost revenue." They now try some innovative ways to fill those berths without reducing the cost for most passengers. Last minute deals are generally available to only new bookings...and some lines offer last minute discounts to specific groups (i.e. seniors, veterans, teachers, firefighters. etc). The idea is to sell the empty berths at lower prices without having to reduce the price of those who have already booked.

 

Hank

 

Much sage stuff from Hank.

The cost-cutting is very evident, though apart from that slower steaming & those foreshortened port hours it doesn't worry me.

Food standards in the MDR & buffet I still rate very acceptable, though the temptation is surely there to reduce standards to those of a canteen or fast-food joint in order to both save money & increase revenue by encouraging more cruisers to use the pay-restaurants. :eek:

 

The mainly-retired folk who take multiple cruises aren't well-catered-for. Yes, the prices of those over-saturated itineraries (for Brits that's the Fjords, the Baltic, the Med & the Canaries) have tumbled because cruise lines have over-estimated demand. Took advantage of a couple of silly-cheap late deals on them ourselves, but the itineraries are very old-hat & we booked purely on price.

But there are very few cheap late deals for "different" itineraries, such as SE Asia or the Black Sea, where demand is good but supply is weak Because the industry mis-judged demand? Or because they prefer to look for first-timers?

 

If cruise lines want to save money and appeal to more repeat cruisers, perhaps they might consider increasing the number of overnites in port & reducing the number of ports & sea days. Experienced travellers & even many of the less-savvy will know that many ports are worthy of far longer than a rushed day-visit & would welcome these longer stops even though it means fewer ports.

That's a big big saving in expensive fuel, balanced by port fees & reduced captive-market on-board sales.

I don't know how that cost balance works out, perhaps others do?

 

Just my thoughts

 

JB :)

[sail7seas]

The more the cruise line cuts their costs and lowers the standards and products, the less satisfaction for their guests and the fewer repeaters.

 

I guess that would solve the issue of wanting fewer people cruising again and again with the cruise line. Provide less than they expect and are willing to accept and watch them disappear.

[iheartbda]

I understand marketing to new cruisers since I once worked in an industry that relied heavily on "new blood". However, if cruise line do not necessarily want or need repeat customers, why do they offer increasingly "better" perks depending on the number of cruises one has taken? All cruise lines have a loyalty program.

 

Our next cruise was not cheap to begin with and although we did get a small price drop, now that it's after final payment, the prices are up, at least for our category.