Is this B2B itinerary legal?

[cruisenfever]

Like I said, you're not going to get a legitimate answer here. I would consult your TA or an RCI rep.

Unfortunately the RCI reps are not all on the same page and there are a few that have never heard of the PVSA act.

Unfortunately RCI does not have their computers flagged to not allow this combination and most of the CVP's are not familiar with the PVSA.

 

Expect a call.

This is the frustrating part. :mad: When itineraries were first released, we booked a b2b on Serenade for October 2015. First cruise was out of Cape Liberty to Quebec and then Quebec to Ft. Lauderdale. A definite violation of the PVSA, but nobody said a word at the time of booking. And......I should have known better.:o

 

We switched to the September 15 cruise followed by September 25 because it's Cape Liberty to Quebec and Quebec back to Cape Liberty.

Edited February 19, 2014 by cruisenfever

[comxkid]

Like I said, you're not going to get a legitimate answer here. I would consult your TA or an RCI rep.

 

Not sure why you would say that. There have been plenty of legitimate answers given here. I would guess that some of these posters know more about the law than a TA or a random RCI rep would.

[PCWalton1]

Like I said, you're not going to get a legitimate answer here. I would consult your TA or an RCI rep.

 

Are you serious? You do stand up comedy too? :p

[Ourusualbeach]

This is the frustrating part. :mad: When itineraries were first released, we booked a b2b on Serenade for October 2015. First cruise was out of Cape Liberty to Quebec and then Quebec to Ft. Lauderdale. A definite violation of the PVSA, but nobody said a word at the time of booking. And......I should have known better.:o

 

We switched to the September 15 cruise followed by September 25 because it's Cape Liberty to Quebec and Quebec back to Cape Liberty.

 

Someone earlier mentioned that the fine was only $300 for a violation. If that is in fact the case would it not make sense for RCI to allow those cruises that violate the PVSA and charge the passenger an extra $300. I'm sure that there are many who would be willing to pay that amount to get some of those really unique itineraries.

[Ourusualbeach]

Not sure why you would say that. There have been plenty of legitimate answers given here. I would guess that some of these posters know more about the law than a TA or a random RCI rep would.

 

Quite a few actually.

[mommabean]

You may have been allowed to book it, but be prepared you may get a call to cancel one leg. I wouldn't be making any plane reservations just yet.

 

Trust me, it's not legal.

 

And if the cruise begins in a foreign port, say Vancouver, then it all becomes a moot point. PVSA only pertains to beginning and ending in USA ports.

 

 

Serious question. Who reviews it? They can't even get their web site to work properly. Their booking engine messes up to the point of re pricing cruises after the fact. It can take an hour on the phone to straighten out web site or pricing issues.

 

They actually have a live person going over unlinked reservations to check them for Jones laws violations? It seems like it would just be easier and cheaper to charge the passenger the fine if it is ever discovered, even though they disembark completely and check in again.

 

Just how many hours does someone need to be off the ship in order to not be in violation? Over night?

 

I'm seriously asking and not questioning the validity of anyone's answers.

Edited February 19, 2014 by mommabean

[mommabean]

Someone earlier mentioned that the fine was only $300 for a violation. If that is in fact the case would it not make sense for RCI to allow those cruises that violate the PVSA and charge the passenger an extra $300. I'm sure that there are many who would be willing to pay that amount to get some of those really unique itineraries.

 

 

Agreed! I have just suggested the same thing. It would save RCI money in wages since it is claimed someone is manually scouring the records for violations. I'd be very surprised if any of this were computerized.

Edited February 19, 2014 by mommabean

[cruisenfever]

Someone earlier mentioned that the fine was only $300 for a violation. If that is in fact the case would it not make sense for RCI to allow those cruises that violate the PVSA and charge the passenger an extra $300. I'm sure that there are many who would be willing to pay that amount to get some of those really unique itineraries.

I agree. Some of the made to order b2b itineraries are worth the extra bucks.

[xxoocruiser]

You may not think its correct, but it is. Cruises to nowhere aren't visiting any other ports. Just like you will never see a cruise just visit a U.S. port ie; Miami-Key West-Miami. They will always visit a foreign port.

 

Sorry, you would be incorrect sir :D

 

In reference to the statement "Just like you will never see a cruise just visit a U.S. port ie; Miami-Key West-Miami." this only applies if the cruise ship is registered to a foreign flag. NCL's cruise ship the Pride of America only sails around the Hawaiian Islands with never going to a foreign port as it's registered to the USA.

[comxkid]

Serious question. Who reviews it? They can't even get their web site to work properly.

 

The guy on the right.

[Ourusualbeach]

According to Wikipedia the fine is $300. What an option that would be.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passenger_Vessel_Services_Act_of_1886

[comxkid]

According to Wikipedia the fine is $300. What an option that would be.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passenger_Vessel_Services_Act_of_1886

 

Adjusted for inflation, the original $200 fine would be $5,030.00 today.

 

The law should be repealed.

Edited February 19, 2014 by comxkid

[Dragonkeper]

The Passenger Vessel Services Act of 1886 (sometimes abbreviated to PVSA, Passenger Services Act, or PSA) is a protectionist piece of United States legislation which came into force in 1886 relating to cabotage. Essentially, it says:

No foreign vessels shall transport passengers between ports or places in the United States, either directly or by way of a foreign port, under a penalty of $200 (now $300) for each passenger so transported and landed.As a result, all vessels engaged in the coastwise trade have been required to be coastwise-qualified (i.e., U.S.-built, owned and documented). Under the Passenger Vessel Services Act of 1886 (46 U.S.C. § 55103), non-coastwise-qualified vessels cannot transport passengers directly between U.S. ports. Generally, a passenger is any person carried on a vessel who is not directly and substantially connected with the operation of such vessel, her navigation, ownership, or business. The precise definition of what constitutes a U.S. port ("coastwise point") includes artificial islands and similar structures, as well as to mobile oil drilling rigs, drilling platforms, and other devices attached to the seabed of the Outer Continental Shelf for the purpose of resource exploration operations, and the anchored warehouse vessels that supply drilling platforms.[1]

The handful of U.S.-flagged cruise ships in operation are registered in the U.S. to permit cruises between the Hawaiian Islands, or from the continental U.S. to Hawaii.

The Passenger Vessel Services Act, however,

• does not prohibit foreign-flagged ships departing from and returning to the same U.S. port
  
• does not prohibit foreign-flagged ships departing from a U.S. port, visiting a distant foreign port, and then continuing to a second U.S. port. However, in order to embark in a U.S. port and disembark in a second U.S. port, the vessel must visit a distant foreign port outside of North America (Central America, Bermuda. the Bahamas, and all of the Caribbean except Aruba, Bonaire, and Curaçao, count as part of North America).
  
• does not prevent a ship from taking on passengers at a U.S. port and then returning them to another U.S. city by ground or air, or vice versa, as long as the cruise ship returns to its departing point without stopping (a "cruise to nowhere"), or stops in at least one distant foreign port.
  

In accordance with this law, cruise lines that operate foreign-flagged vessels are fined $300 for each passenger who boarded such a vessel in one U.S. port and left the vessel at another port. The cruise lines typically pass this cost on the passengers who "jump the ship". Exemptions are available in the case of family emergencies etc.

 

 

Canada is part of North America so the B2B would be illegal.

[setsail]

= (Canada is not considered a foreign distant port) .

 

As I often do, I check things out outside of cc. I had to Google the "act" because I wanted a definition of a foreign port.

 

As I found out if it is north America, including Canada, Mexico, central amer. It is not considered a foreign distant port, confirming the above quoted post.

 

To be considered that, a cruise has to go as far south as Aruba.

[FLACRUISER99]

Someone earlier mentioned that the fine was only $300 for a violation. If that is in fact the case would it not make sense for RCI to allow those cruises that violate the PVSA and charge the passenger an extra $300. I'm sure that there are many who would be willing to pay that amount to get some of those really unique itineraries.

You really think it would be OK for A cruise line to knowingly break the law just because the fine is low?

[crzndeb]

As stated earlier, severity to the cruise lines for knowingly allowing violations is stricter than the $300 to the passenger. They can actually have port privileges revoked, and more. I have never heard of that happening though.

 

And cruiseboy305, if the search feature was working, you would be able to see all the previous posts of this affecting passengers.

 

There are some really knowledge posters on CC, that can explain the facts a whole lot better than myself, and maybe they will notice this thread.

 

A couple of years ago, there were a lot of questions about Disney getting away with this, but we don't really know if there was any penalty to them.

 

Hey, if one is allowed to book and get away with it, why not try. You might get fined, you might not. Just be aware that it might get caught a week before you cruise. Better to know the rules ahead of time.

[Ourusualbeach]

Adjusted for inflation, the original $200 fine would be $5,030.00 today.

 

The law should be repealed.

 

Thank goodness it's not adjusted for inflation. Definitely should be repealed.

[hellsop]

Definitely a law that is past it's prime and needs retiring.

 

Or a few more domestically-registered ships... The restriction is only on foreign-flagged vessels, after all.

[comxkid]

Or a few more domestically-registered ships... The restriction is only on foreign-flagged vessels, after all.

 

I didn't realize that there is only 1 large cruise ship sailing that was registered in the U.S. What story does that tell?

[mo&fran]

The Passenger Vessel Services Act of 1886 (sometimes abbreviated to PVSA, Passenger Services Act, or PSA) is a protectionist piece of United States legislation which came into force in 1886 relating to cabotage. Essentially, it says:

No foreign vessels shall transport passengers between ports or places in the United States, either directly or by way of a foreign port, under a penalty of $200 (now $300) for each passenger so transported and landed.As a result, all vessels engaged in the coastwise trade have been required to be coastwise-qualified (i.e., U.S.-built, owned and documented). Under the Passenger Vessel Services Act of 1886 (46 U.S.C. § 55103), non-coastwise-qualified vessels cannot transport passengers directly between U.S. ports. Generally, a passenger is any person carried on a vessel who is not directly and substantially connected with the operation of such vessel, her navigation, ownership, or business. The precise definition of what constitutes a U.S. port ("coastwise point") includes artificial islands and similar structures, as well as to mobile oil drilling rigs, drilling platforms, and other devices attached to the seabed of the Outer Continental Shelf for the purpose of resource exploration operations, and the anchored warehouse vessels that supply drilling platforms.[1]

The handful of U.S.-flagged cruise ships in operation are registered in the U.S. to permit cruises between the Hawaiian Islands, or from the continental U.S. to Hawaii.

 

The Passenger Vessel Services Act, however,

• does not prohibit foreign-flagged ships departing from and returning to the same U.S. port
  
• does not prohibit foreign-flagged ships departing from a U.S. port, visiting a distant foreign port, and then continuing to a second U.S. port. However, in order to embark in a U.S. port and disembark in a second U.S. port, the vessel must visit a distant foreign port outside of North America (Central America, Bermuda. the Bahamas, and all of the Caribbean except Aruba, Bonaire, and Curaçao, count as part of North America).
  
• does not prevent a ship from taking on passengers at a U.S. port and then returning them to another U.S. city by ground or air, or vice versa, as long as the cruise ship returns to its departing point without stopping (a "cruise to nowhere"), or stops in at least one distant foreign port.
  

In accordance with this law, cruise lines that operate foreign-flagged vessels are fined $300 for each passenger who boarded such a vessel in one U.S. port and left the vessel at another port. The cruise lines typically pass this cost on the passengers who "jump the ship". Exemptions are available in the case of family emergencies etc.

 

 

Canada is part of North America so the B2B would be illegal.

 

 

Furthermore, the act does specifically exempt Pureto Rico and the USVI from the law, allowing passengers to embark or disembark in the ports without penalty.

Curious that they don't go back and add Hawaii to that list.

[RDC1]

Serious question. Who reviews it? They can't even get their web site to work properly. Their booking engine messes up to the point of re pricing cruises after the fact. It can take an hour on the phone to straighten out web site or pricing issues.

 

They actually have a live person going over unlinked reservations to check them for Jones laws violations? It seems like it would just be easier and cheaper to charge the passenger the fine if it is ever discovered, even though they disembark completely and check in again.

 

Just how many hours does someone need to be off the ship in order to not be in violation? Over night?

 

I'm seriously asking and not questioning the validity of anyone's answers.

 

Each cruise line has a department that reviews reservations for legal compliance. This is a validation step that takes place behind the scenes and may be done fairly late in the process.

 

The people that make the reservations are pretty much dependent upon what their computer tells them as far as the reservation is concerned. Not all illegal combinations show up with the computer reservation system.

[TheHappyWanderers]

Not to hijack this thread, but my question is within the same guidelines. Why can't I book a cruise from Vancouver, that terminates in Los Angeles, as a back-to-back with a Los Angeles round trip itinerary? I embark in Vancouver and debark in Los Angeles. (Which is what I would be doing if I JUST took the first cruise which is Vancouver to Los Angeles.)

Can someone out there explain this to me? I really would appreciate the input. Thank you.

Gigi

[FLACRUISER99]

Or a few more domestically-registered ships... The restriction is only on foreign-flagged vessels, after all.

BTY, it also applies to aircraft & Airlines.

[Clarea]

Not to hijack this thread, but my question is within the same guidelines. Why can't I book a cruise from Vancouver, that terminates in Los Angeles, as a back-to-back with a Los Angeles round trip itinerary? I embark in Vancouver and debark in Los Angeles. (Which is what I would be doing if I JUST took the first cruise which is Vancouver to Los Angeles.)

Can someone out there explain this to me? I really would appreciate the input. Thank you.

Gigi

Not sure I understand. Can you provide the details on the two situations?

[ItsOnlyMoney1126]

I'm curious to know if this is the same act that does not allow a foreign airline to operate domestic flights in the US or if there is a specific law for the airlines? If this is the same law sited for air travel, it will not be repealed any time soon.