Has Celebrity gone down hill since the new CEO took over?

[cpj]

[quote name='cle-guy']A very insightful observation, I too feel Like I've experienced the same.

I think the "old timers" based on number of cruises were probably generally booking lower level cabins and enjoying the same loyalty recognition as those in premium cabins who were paying a premium price. And why not! The more often we cruise the more we want to the less money we have left to spend on extra cruses therefore we have to take cheap cabins to cruise more often....

Then those numbers of elites started to grow too quickly and make the benefits start to lose their meaning when a ship has half its passengers trying to go to an elite function no one is special anymore and the non elites start to look like the winners not being stuck in crowded elite gatherings! Like when the suite and VIP check in lines are 2 x longer than the normal lines....

Then the cruise lines realized the loyalty program was no longer needed to fill the ships, they are filling themselves these days, so now it's time to change the significance of loyalty to the cruisers spending more, which provide a larger margin than other cruisers and cabins, much like Airlines are starting to do next year with their programs.

Certainly it sucks when something's taken away from you, but in this case it seems to me it leveled the playing field and is a decision made to enhance profitability. X may find it better to keep 1 suite guest happier than 10 inside cabin guests. 1/10th the work and effort with the same bottom line effect. Makes business sense to me...to the extent that the occupancy rates which have been over 100% the last 2 years at least from the SEC 10k filings don't fall back.

If occupancy stays the same (and cabin fare revenue is the same or better) then the new captain's club program will be a HUGE success for X, keeping full ships, and limiting higher tier elite benefits to a more manageable group.

It will prove that the "loyal returning" guests are not all created equal when it comes to profitability, much to the dismay of all those who bang on about "I've cruised 25 times (in insides on TA's) and think X is wrong to not reward my loyalty the same as those in the Penthouse on a European sailing".

X would much rather carter to the returning loyal suite or premium cabin guest these days to drive revenue increases, than the returning loyal inside cabin guest just to make them another elite in the ranks. That's just the way it is. Classism some may say, but it's just the truth.[/QUOTE]
I totally agree

[existentialtraveler]

[quote name='wpgcycler']yes, it's an absolute shambles! Acapella groups dropping like flies, not a tube of shower gel in sight, trivia contests being treated as nothing more than trivial, scurvy rampant due to the lime shortage, newfangled electronic music everywhere (and loud!), brunch has been lunched... Where will it end? Well according to noted industry analysts on the cruise critic forum, it won't! It seems mr. Bayley's strategy is to create a bare bones ferry service where even burgers at the mast grill will be an extra charge. Escargot? Escargone! Celebrity indeed - calamity is more like it![/quote]

what??? No escargot??????

[cle-guy]

[quote name='existentialtraveler']what??? No escargot??????[/QUOTE]

was gone for a long time due to a worldwide snail shortage.

but the slimy bastards are back in huge enough numbers, it's back on the menu now.... :D seems like for the last 4 or 5 months or so.

[ECCruise]

[quote name='cle-guy']A very insightful observation, I too feel Like I've experienced the same.

I think the "old timers" based on number of cruises were probably generally booking lower level cabins and enjoying the same loyalty recognition as those in premium cabins who were paying a premium price. And why not! The more often we cruise the more we want to the less money we have left to spend on extra cruses therefore we have to take cheap cabins to cruise more often....

Then those numbers of elites started to grow too quickly and make the benefits start to lose their meaning when a ship has half its passengers trying to go to an elite function no one is special anymore and the non elites start to look like the winners not being stuck in crowded elite gatherings! Like when the suite and VIP check in lines are 2 x longer than the normal lines....

Then the cruise lines realized the loyalty program was no longer needed to fill the ships, they are filling themselves these days, so now it's time to change the significance of loyalty to the cruisers spending more, which provide a larger margin than other cruisers and cabins, much like Airlines are starting to do next year with their programs.

Certainly it sucks when something's taken away from you, but in this case it seems to me it leveled the playing field and is a decision made to enhance profitability. X may find it better to keep 1 suite guest happier than 10 inside cabin guests. 1/10th the work and effort with the same bottom line effect. Makes business sense to me...to the extent that the occupancy rates which have been over 100% the last 2 years at least from the SEC 10k filings don't fall back.

If occupancy stays the same (and cabin fare revenue is the same or better) then the new captain's club program will be a HUGE success for X, keeping full ships, and limiting higher tier elite benefits to a more manageable group.

It will prove that the "loyal returning" guests are not all created equal when it comes to profitability, much to the dismay of all those who bang on about "I've cruised 25 times (in insides on TA's) and think X is wrong to not reward my loyalty the same as those in the Penthouse on a European sailing".

X would much rather carter to the returning loyal suite or premium cabin guest these days to drive revenue increases, than the returning loyal inside cabin guest just to make them another elite in the ranks. That's just the way it is. Classism some may say, but it's just the truth.[/QUOTE]

Totally disagree with virtually everything you are saying.
1) To assume that loyal guests (and I will use that term rather than your "old timers" booked lower level cabins is pure assumption. Show us the statistics, please.
2) 1 happy suite customer and 10 unhappy 10 inside guests (and I guess you would lump outside and "lower" level balconies here = business disaster. Have no idea what, if any business you are in, but man, your recipe is one lousy one for long-term profitbility.
3) Virtually EVERY cruise line runs at 100%+ load factor when the whole year is taken into consideration, barring some major incident (e.g. Concordia).
4) Classism? Oh, yes. Elitism? Oh, yes. Truth? Just challenged a couple of your totally unfounded points.

[Ma Bell]

Just returned from two weeks on Eclipse where my daughter and I were treated like Queens. My personal experience could not have been better.

That being said, I am feeling a little unsettled about the direction Celebrity seems to be taking. I will refrain from commenting until I see how things go on our next couple of cruises but I think Celebrity is entering a period where they will either hit a home run or make some serious mistakes which could be difficult to correct. I'm hoping for the home run.

[keithm]

[quote name='wpgcycler']Yes, it's an absolute shambles! acapella groups dropping like flies, not a tube of shower gel in sight, trivia contests being treated as nothing more than trivial, scurvy rampant due to the lime shortage, newfangled electronic music everywhere (and LOUD!), brunch has been lunched... WHERE WILL IT END? Well according to noted industry analysts on the cruise critic forum, IT WON'T! It seems Mr. Bayley's strategy is to create a bare bones ferry service where even burgers at the Mast Grill will be an extra charge. Escargot? EscarGONE! Celebrity indeed - Calamity is more like it![/QUOTE]
Found the trip on the Eclipse in Jan. so nice we plan to do it again next winter. Escargots were well in evidence. Food was excellent in spite of these reviews. True, perhaps it's not that way on all their ships, but we loved the Eclipse. We always did Cunard, but the last trip in 2012on the QV was not a good as we've had in the past, so we're trying Celebrity.

[keithm]

[quote name='cpj']I totally agree[/QUOTE]
For our first trip(Jan.25) we chose an inside room. We liked it just fine. By the time the trip was done I had dropped about $2000 additional(my partner about $650)..Excursions/Specialty rest. etc. I'd say we spent quite well for a supposed cheapo, as you would have labled us.

[Orator]

[quote name='ECCruise']Totally disagree with virtually everything you are saying.
1) To assume that loyal guests (and I will use that term rather than your "old timers" booked lower level cabins is pure assumption. Show us the statistics, please.
2) 1 happy suite customer and 10 unhappy 10 inside guests (and I guess you would lump outside and "lower" level balconies here = business disaster. Have no idea what, if any business you are in, but man, your recipe is one lousy one for long-term profitbility.
3) Virtually EVERY cruise line runs at 100%+ load factor when the whole year is taken into consideration, barring some major incident (e.g. Concordia).
4) Classism? Oh, yes. Elitism? Oh, yes. Truth? Just challenged a couple of your totally unfounded points.[/QUOTE]

My personal experience places me on your side of the argument. It takes 3000 points to make the top tier (Zenith).Now, how long do you think it would take to get there if you book inside or Ocean View Cabins and only take short cruises? Most of the top cruisers have booked Concierge, AQ or Suites to reach their point totals. I've cruised with most of them and know what they book.There might be a change in booking patterns once one reaches Zenith since the benefits treat an inside in pretty much the same way as a Suite.I know only one Zenith who now books insides. Is the Zenith badge now a sign of disloyalty. Well, according to some it is. Much easier for some to offer gross generaliztions than take time to do real research. Some people tend to treat their own opinions as "facts" and label those who have a differnt point of view as less loyal. Celebrity wants to receive honest comments based on experience. That'show they improve their product. They take comments from all cruisers seriously, but tend to reach out a bit more to their most frequent guests. The bias expressed by a very few frequent posters against those who've earned their Celebrity spurs reveals more about their personality and credibility than the loyalty of their targets. I am pleased to have been a target of some of their attacks and wear their comments as a badge of honor.

[ECCruise]

[quote name='Ma Bell']Just returned from two weeks on Eclipse where my daughter and I were treated like Queens. My personal experience could not have been better.

That being said, I am feeling a little unsettled about the direction Celebrity seems to be taking. I will refrain from commenting until I see how things go on our next couple of cruises but I think Celebrity is entering a period where they will either hit a home run or make some serious mistakes which could be difficult to correct. I'm hoping for the home run.[/QUOTE]

I think a lot of us are in the same boat. The jury is still out, in our minds, and our 35 days on Celebrity in the next 5 months should give a clearer picture.

But to assert, as a number here are doing, that everything is hunky-dory based on their 1-5 cruises (and 7 to 30 days) experience, is, frankly blind and assumptive.

[Cruising89143]

[quote name='ECCruise']I think a lot of us are in the same boat. The jury is still out, in our minds, and our 35 days on Celebrity in the next 5 months should give a clearer picture.

But to assert, as a number here are doing, that everything is hunky-dory based on their 1-5 cruises (and 7 to 30 days) experience, is, frankly blind and assumptive.[/QUOTE]

Just as some may not be happy others are based on their cruise. Regardless if it's one or fifty. One does not need to cruise with a cruise line multiple times to know if they enjoyed the experience. By the way my vision is just fine.;)

[cle-guy]

[quote name='ECCruise']Totally disagree with virtually everything you are saying.
1) To assume that loyal guests (and I will use that term rather than your "old timers" booked lower level cabins is pure assumption. Show us the statistics, please.[/QUOTE]

My definition of a loyal guest is one who sails in good and bad and doesn't complain about the changes that happen. Loyalty is a 2-way street. Once you complain, you have given up your loyalty. That's why I don't want to call everyone who has a lot of cruises under their belt a loyal guest. My reply was on response to another poster noting the difference from people who have lots of cruises, as we don't know if they are "old" "young" or "middle aged". That's why I defined "old timers" as used within my post having borrowed the term from the prior poster. They have had to be around for a while in order to have so many cruises under their belt.

I can't site statistics, but know that on a ship there ware about 50 suite cabins, 200 concierge and 200 aqua, and several hundred other cabins. The number of elites there are in the ranks couldn't have gotten so large by always traveling only in premium cabins mathematically the weighted average would have had to come from the less than premium cabins. I can also infer by the uprising on these boards when the plan changed of many people who hate the new scheme must mean that they aren't getting the benefits of the higher tier rewards in the system otherwise why would they have been so ticked off with the new program and its levels. SO perhaps I'm wrong to make the assumption, but I think that one can make certain inferences.

[B]As I say, the proof will be in this year's 10k SEC filing.[/B] If occupancy stayed, and cabin fare revenue remained the same or rises, then my agreeing to their new business models will prove my points correct. Time will tell which side is the winner. With the share price moving from $38 to $52 in 6 months since many changes have been implemented, it seems it isn't having any negative affect yet.

[quote name='ECCruise']2) 1 happy suite customer and 10 unhappy 10 inside guests (and I guess you would lump outside and "lower" level balconies here = business disaster. Have no idea what, if any business you are in, but man, your recipe is one lousy one for long-term profitbility.[/QUOTE]

I have a bachelor's degree in Hotel Administration from The Ohio State University which was basically business program with a specialization in hotels and hospitality. I was an Assistant General Manager for Courtyard by Marriott for 3 years achieved only after working through the ranks from desk clerk to night audit to supervisor to manager to new hotel task force implementation before leaving to work with my family in the entertainment industry several years ago.

Now I'm in retail and own and operate 3 boutique stores in northeast Ohio with a business model to have 10 within the next 5 years that we started to open in 2012 generating about 1.5 million in sales annually, and steadily increasing. We started with only $30,000 investment and slowly built our client base and store operations to the point that our general sales cash flow is now sufficient to provide the necessary capital for store expansion about every 6-9 months and maintain an inventory valued at around $250k at any time.

Sales year to year in same store increased 75% year one and another 50% year 2 in our primary store, and the same happened in store 2 and store 3 seems to be on a similar track. We sell the same things as many local competitors do, but we take am more "boutique" approach to our business model. These 3 small stores I've got running with only 9 staff members, and am able to operate them profitably even while experiencing my fabulous Celebrity vacations as often as I do. I've established processing, audit, and tracking systems, hired well-trained and organized staff I can trust, and treat my staff well.

I think in terms of pure margins, keeping a beautiful clean well-lit store, and on my key customers. I've learned that yes in fact you can have a bad customer. A customer who takes 20 minutes to pick out an item then wants a discount is less cherished than the guy who comes in grabs an item and pays whatever is printed on the price tag. It only allows me to make more sales in a day by focusing on the quick purchasers, I can also save on staffing by not having to have extra staff on hand just to hand hold the lookie-loos. The old saying "The Customer is Always Right" isn't always a fact. Sometimes a customer costs you more money than they are worth.

I guess all that I am trying to say is I do happen to know a little something about running a profitable business and our track record seems to be proving that out.

[quote name='ECCruise']3) Virtually EVERY cruise line runs at 100%+ load factor when the whole year is taken into consideration, barring some major incident (e.g. Concordia).[/QUOTE]

That all ships run at capacity means the loyalty programs are no longer needed to keep them full, the focus now has to be on revenue optimization, and rewarding people for spending more, not o much cruising more. There's no more capacity for more cruisers, only more capacity for revenue generation.

[quote name='ECCruise']4) Classism? Oh, yes. Elitism? Oh, yes. Truth? Just challenged a couple of your totally unfounded points.[/QUOTE]

Not even gonna bother. Learned long ago that those that invoke classism elitism etc. will never be convinced otherwise. I suppose I'd end by calling it simple Capitalism. God bless the USA.

[NLH Arizona]

[quote name='Orator']My personal experience places me on your side of the argument. It takes 3000 points to make the top tier (Zenith).Now, how long do you think it would take to get there if you book inside or Ocean View Cabins and only take short cruises? [/quote]
Prior to the changes, didn't a 4 day cruise received the same points as an 11 day cruise, with the exception of those in Concierge Class, Aqua Class or suite who got an extra point? The majority of those that are Zenith, Elite Plus and Elite now, got there under the old program not the new program.

BTW, that is why some that take shorter cruisers are complaining about the new Captain's Club, because they aren't earning the points as fast as they once were.

[Orator]

[quote name='NLH Arizona']Prior to the changes, didn't a 4 day cruise received the same points as an 11 day cruise, with the exception of those in Concierge Class, Aqua Class or suite who got an extra point? The majority of those that are Zenith, Elite Plus and Elite now, got there under the old program not the new program.

BTW, that is why some that take shorter cruisers are complaining about the new Captain's Club, because they aren't earning the points as fast as they once were.[/QUOTE]

Yes, since the new program is new most of the points earned were earned under the old system. However, most of the top cruisers I know, I personally know more than half the Zenith members, took longer cruises in Concierge or higher. Those really interested in "points" would be on TAs, that's one reason why there were so many old Elites on them. I typically was in AQ or Suites and that's how I got to Zenith in a bit over 5 years. When the new program was announced Celebrity created an opportunity for some to move up by receiving 25 bonus points for AQ or higher. I felt that this should have been extended to at least balcony cabins to give more people a chance to move up, but Celebrity called the shots. Many, including me, took shorter cruises on Century and Constellation to reach a new level and not just Zenith. So, in fact shorter cruises in AQ or above made points easier to obtain. This fact counters disputes your claim about shorter cruises. Now, since points will be based on days there really won't be a difference in how you get the days. Personally, I prefer longer cruises and have a B2B on Reflection starting Saturday and a 16 day TA in November. Others have different preferences and time constraints.

[NLH Arizona]

[quote name='Orator']Some people tend to treat their own opinions as "facts" and label those who have a differnt point of view as less loyal. Celebrity wants to receive honest comments based on experience. That'show they improve their product. They take comments from all cruisers seriously, but tend to reach out a bit more to their most frequent guests.

The bias expressed by a very few frequent posters against those who've earned their Celebrity spurs reveals more about their personality and credibility than the loyalty of their targets. I am pleased to have been a target of some of their attacks and wear their comments as a badge of honor. [/quote]
I've noticed this as well. Some on here only think that their opinions are the ones that count. I've been told that my experiences don't count and I'm less loyal because I've only cruised 45 days on Celebrity by some of the "old timers" (not age related, but those who have sailed Celebrity a lot), so it really goes both ways. And yes, it seems that some "old timers" only feel that their experiences and/or opinions count and no one elses does. I think everyone's experiences/opinions count no matter if they have been on 1 or 100 cruises. Even though I've only sailed 45 days on Celebrity, I've taken over 30 cruises.

And yes, Celebrity listens to everyone's opinions and I guess they must feel that I'm one of their more frequent guests, because they have reached out to me as well.

You are preaching to the choir about being a target, it seems as I have a bullseye on my screen from some of the "old timers" who don't think anyone else can have an opinion or experience except for them and it tells a lot about them as well.

[cle-guy]

[quote name='Orator'] It takes 3000 points to make the top tier (Zenith).Now, how long do you think it would take to get there if you book inside or Ocean View Cabins and only take short cruises? [/QUOTE]

They have made the top tier special for their most profitable customers, changing the program to now reward REVENUE generation over "butts in beds".

By design, it's a level that's not intended to be a goal everyone can achieved.

Now that ships sail full, butts in beds isn't the issue, increasing revenue is. The new scheme rightfully makes the top tier out of reach for many. many more cursers, giving them the special services a profitable customer deserves.

There's no longer reason to incentivize people to simply take a bed, they need incentive to spend more on cabins to achieve higher ranking. This also ensure these higher elite ranks don't swell to the point that its difficult to join on the gatherings.

I have to admit, I think its totally ludicrous that I had only 4 cruses and earned Elite Status under the old system. Glad I did, but realized it was way too easy to get there. And I will admit I worked it buying higher categories when they went on final sale to get the extra point, and longer cruise to get the extra point. But 4 cruises should not a higher ranking elite customer make.

I fault NO ONE for being Zenith if they earned it the old way or the new way. The fun they've had along the way...

It's a program designed by the cruise lines to ultimately drive profits under the disguise as a "Loyalty Program" just a marketing gimmick. The way it used to work no longer delivered that directive, it had to change to recognize revenue. Edited April 8, 2014 by cle-guy

[NLH Arizona]

[quote name='Orator']Yes, since the new program is new most of the points earned were earned under the old system. However, most of the top cruisers I know, I personally know more than half the Zenith members, took longer cruises in Concierge or higher. Those really interested in "points" would be on TAs, that's one reason why there were so many old Elites on them. I typically was in AQ or Suites and that's how I got to Zenith in a bit over 5 years. When the new program was announced Celebrity created an opportunity for some to move up by receiving 25 bonus points for AQ or higher. I felt that this should have been extended to at least balcony cabins to give more people a chance to move up, but Celebrity called the shots. Many, including me, took shorter cruises on Century and Constellation to reach a new level and not just Zenith. So, in fact shorter cruises in AQ or above made points easier to obtain. This fact counters disputes your claim about shorter cruises. Now, since points will be based on days there really won't be a difference in how you get the days. Personally, I prefer longer cruises and have a B2B on Reflection starting Saturday and a 16 day TA in November. Others have different preferences and time constraints.[/quote]
Possibly Zenith, but not the same for all. I remember one particular poster (one that really complained about the new Captain's Club) who made Elite Plus posting about going on this cruise and that cruise right after the announcment of the changes and all the cruises were short cruise (these were before the 25 bonus points program), because he/she complained that he/she couldn't cancel them without losing all his/her money. Bottom line, many made Elite and Elite Plus off the old program, where one could get the same points for a 4 day cruise as they could for an 11 day cruise and I'm sure that is one of the reasons why Celebrity made the changes.

Now look at this, we agree on some things. We both like longer cruises. We both agree that some feel that only their opinions/experiences are the only ones that count. We both agree that we have been targets of those on the other side of the issue.

Have a great cruise. Edited April 8, 2014 by NLH Arizona

[Orator]

[quote name='cle-guy']They have made the top tier special for their most profitable customers, changing the program to now reward REVENUE generation over "butts in beds".

By design, it's a level that's not intended to be a goal everyone can achieved.

Now that ships sail full, butts in beds isn't the issue, increasing revenue is. The new scheme rightfully makes the top tier out of reach for many. many more cursers, giving them the special services a profitable customer deserves.

There's no longer reason to incentivize people to simply take a bed, they need incentive to spend more on cabins to achieve higher ranking. This also ensure these higher elite ranks don't swell to the point that its difficult to join on the gatherings.

I have to admit, I think its totally ludicrous that I had only 4 cruses and earned Elite Status under the old system. Glad I did, but realized it was way too easy to get there. And I will admit I worked it buying higher categories when they went on final sale to get the extra point, and longer cruise to get the extra point. But 4 cruises should not a higher ranking elite customer make.

I fault NO ONE for being Zenith if they earned it the old way or the new way. The fun they've had along the way...

It's a program designed by the cruise lines to ultimately rive profits, the sway it used to work no longer delivered that directive, it had to change to recognize revenue.[/QUOTE]

I believe that this statement is spot on. The program changes including Captain's Club and the new Suite perks provide strong evidence of the desire to enhance revenue. As a shareholder I want strong profits, as a cruiser I want more for less. Ah, there the rub. Many people take extra cruises to advance to a higher level. 750 to 3000 is too steep to be effective in baiting people to cruise more. I've advocated a new level at 1500 points but recognize that Celebrity has placed the program in the rear mirror and won't return for a long time. For me, the journey has been a great deal of fun. Bye the bye, a brand new cruiser with means can get to Elite in far less than 4 cruises.

[cle-guy]

[quote name='Orator']As a shareholder I want strong profits, as a cruiser I want more for less. Ah, there the rub. [/QUOTE]

I too am a shareholder and get the rub! I bought initially just for the OBC benefit (so far 3 of my 6 cruises were booked close in and had no perks apply so the OBC benefit works for me) having my investor just trade out something from my IRA account to buy it, then started looking further onto the company and its vision and recent changes, and how much I enjoy it, and felt it also makes a good investment. Up $6 bucks so far...! My investor said he's actually got a lot of clients holding the stock now.

And historically for me, I've noted any time I start doing home improvement, Lowes goes up. When I buy a pet or supplies, Petco goes up. So I figured I'm cruising Celebrity now, buy it, it's gonna go up. Yeah that's not a logical reason to buy, but it makes me feel better LOL

But as an investor, have to look out for the LONG run, and err on the side of profitability at the expense of my cheaper cruise today...thus people see the tone of my posts accepting the changes and strategies to grow revenue, even though it's going to pain me and everyone who cruises. it has to happen.

But very few people like any sort of change regardless of its outcome.

[Orator]

[quote name='cle-guy']I too am a shareholder and get the rub! I bought initially just for the OBC benefit (so far 3 of my 6 cruises were booked close in and had no perks apply so the OBC benefit works for me) having my investor just trade out something from my IRA account to buy it, then started looking further onto the company and its vision and recent changes, and how much I enjoy it, and felt it also makes a good investment. Up $6 bucks so far...! My investor said he's actually got a lot of clients holding the stock now.

And historically for me, I've noted any time I start doing home improvement, Lowes goes up. When I buy a pet or supplies, Petco goes up. So I figured I'm cruising Celebrity now, buy it, it's gonna go up. Yeah that's not a logical reason to buy, but it makes me feel better LOL

But as an investor, have to look out for the LONG run, and err on the side of profitability at the expense of my cheaper cruise today...thus people see the tone of my posts accepting the changes and strategies to grow revenue, even though it's going to pain me and everyone who cruises. it has to happen.

But very few people like any sort of change regardless of its outcome.[/QUOTE]

To me, the best way to grow revenue is to have customers banging at your door to get in and buy. Celebrity will do just fine if they continue to deliver a great experience at what consumers see as a fair price.

[existentialtraveler]

[quote name='cle-guy']was gone for a long time due to a worldwide snail shortage.

but the slimy bastards are back in huge enough numbers, it's back on the menu now.... :D seems like for the last 4 or 5 months or so.[/QUOTE]

They were on the menu every night when we were on a B2B on the Summit in October.

[Ma Bell]

Each person has his own idea of what is important to him and based on his own experience decides what works for him. It's really just that simple.

[shofer]

[quote name='shipshape sam'] Someone mention the ice bucket in cabins. We ask for one on each sailing as we purchase the in cabin liquor package, but how many people do not (either because they do not use them or even know to ask) But, assuming half the cabins do not want/ask for/need an ice bucket and thus the once or twice a day restocking saves a lot of time for our room stewards. Potentially enough that they can eliminate maybe 1/2 a room steward on each deck? Just guessing here, but that is what I would expect them to be looking at. Then look for more things to cut and you could reduce head count again..[/QUOTE]

Just off Silhouette in March and I noticed right away that there was no water pitcher on the dresser as in our previous cruises. We asked our Cabin Steward for one and he told us that the company doesn't provide it so you will pay for the water in the mini-fridge. He brought one immediately and kept it fresh for the whole cruise. Never even thought about an ice bucket.

Sue

[C 2 C]

[quote name='cle-guy']

(I hope I'm not coming across as argumentative, I am just actually enjoying batting back and forth real information here for a change...and appreciate your insights. I have such an analytical mind it's hard for me to think without facts...!)[/QUOTE]

However your numbers do not necessarily compare costs when changes in ship size and economies of scale are taken into account.

A cruise ship or ocean liner in the 80's were a fraction of the size to today's ships. The Love Boat carried 600 pax, S-class carry four time as many.
You would need 4 plus 80s ships and their crews in whatever ratio to pax to compare costs. Solstice cost only marginally more to build in inflated dollars compared to Century. Azamara ship size is about the same as Pacific Princess (old Love Boat) and look at the cost increase there compared to Celebrity. We did not sail Princess in the 80s and perhaps some could compare the experience.

I don't know how much fuel cost per passenger mile now compared to the 80's and I don't know the cost of crew pp on a large ship compared to the old days. Economies of scale will obfuscate (I've wanted to use that word for a long time) any simple comparison.

One captain as opposed to four, 1 HD, CD, ship entertainers etc...
All we can really say is that there is a satisfaction cost.. at a certain point alternatives must be taken into consideration. I remember our cruise experiences in Zenith, Horizon and Century, Mercury and Galaxy and the M-class ships as well as the latest S-class.
Those who have less to compare may be much happier than those who have good memories of service, entertainment and food as recently as a decade ago.
Put me in the camp willing to experience better food than free alcohol as a sailing bonus.

Change is inevitable but as long as Michael Bayley believes that the way to higher profits is through increased customer satisfaction, passengers will continue to come back because they like the product provided.

[cle-guy]

[quote name='~Cruisenut~']I don't know the cost of crew pp on a large ship compared to the old days. Economies of scale will obfuscate (I've wanted to use that word for a long time) any simple comparison.

[/QUOTE]

Lots of good points.

As to labor cost I just figured a large part of staff is thought to work for nearly nothing and gets just tips, so staffing costs wouldn't really factory too much in since we pay the gratuity separately....and I think statistically adjusted to inflations, wages are generally thought to be same or generally worth slightly less than back in the day, so would not have had a material affect on the analysis....

And economies of scale is another great example of 'cost savings' to keep Fares low. 1/4 of the admin staff with a boat that holds 4x passengers.

Sooo much goes into the whole picture its very hard for us to figure it out.

But running retail, I've discovered how bottom line profit margins can swing and affect a business selling varied products. Like if the product mix of items with low margins grows and high margin items stay the same, revenue increased - YAHOO! but profit as a percent of sales is less after doing all that extra work, and processing all those extra credit cards, and having an extra person on staff to handle those sales with slim margins. It's a market basket with a complicated balancing act - arriving at appropriate pricing. I don't do enough volume to do well in slim margins or loss leaders, so we take the alternate approach and price at the highest point our market seems to bare.

I'm constantly analyzing things when we change a price, raise it and compare sales with new price versus a similar period before to se how many sales may have been lost by the price change, versus the increased margin and the sales that were made. I focus on the top 10 selling items by margin, then adjust prices up and down till I find the place people buy enough of the item a the new higher cost while selling fewer items. This reduces my inventory carrying costs while keeping profit margin the same. Eventually a price goes too high and they stop buying altogether..

[C 2 C]

[quote name='Host Jazzbeau']For which we Princess cruisers are grateful. Standards are not slipping on P. So those of you who have preferred X in the past should give P another look -- the balance may have shifted.[/QUOTE]

We had cruised with Princess a dozen times before we switched almost exclusively to Celebrity. Celebrity will have to fall another order of magnitude before reaching the low levels established by princess. Princess packs way too many people in the same hull capacity compared to Celebrity ships.