Beware, No Power Strips Allowed

[CRUISEFAN0001]

I used to be a member but left when too many said I was certifiable...

Best post of the week... :)

[mac_tlc]

I used to be a member but left when too many said I was certifiable...

 

Beautiful... !!!

 

I've been a non-certified member of IEEE for over 30 years, electrical engineer in the power industry for 35 years...

 

To me, while the academic back and forth is somewhat interesting, the real issue is this:

 

Given the plethora of electronic devices that people have today, cruise ships are not adequately equipped to handle how people use them. With the number of new builds, they should be more device-friendly -- then there would be zero need for people to want or need to bring on a range of items that may/may not be dangerous, but are no doubt prohibited.

 

mac_tlc

[CRUISEFAN0001]

Beautiful... !!!

 

I've been a non-certified member of IEEE for over 30 years, electrical engineer in the power industry for 35 years...

 

To me, while the academic back and forth is somewhat interesting, the real issue is this:

 

Given the plethora of electronic devices that people have today, cruise ships are not adequately equipped to handle how people use them. With the number of new builds, they should be more device-friendly -- then there would be zero need for people to want or need to bring on a range of items that may/may not be dangerous, but are no doubt prohibited.

 

mac_tlc

Pretend "LIKE" Button pressed. :)

[Charles4515]

To me, while the academic back and forth is somewhat interesting, the real issue is this:

 

Given the plethora of electronic devices that people have today, cruise ships are not adequately equipped to handle how people use them. With the number of new builds, they should be more device-friendly -- then there would be zero need for people to want or need to bring on a range of items that may/may not be dangerous, but are no doubt prohibited.

 

mac_tlc

 

That is the real issue. The cruise lines need to solve it by installing adequate regular and USB outlets in the cabins and placed so none needs power strips or extension cords for those who have medical devices. Can't rely on policing what passengers carry on by inspecting their bags. Or on what so called experts on Cruise Critic claim about what should be brought aboard or not and try to convince us about them. Convincing a few people here what to bring onboard is going to make little difference. Most passengers don't read Cruise Critic and even those who do don't read everything. Even of those who read this thread many are not going to change what they bring. The solution is more outlets in the cabin so passengers would not have to bring their own solutions.

Edited March 26, 2016 by Charles4515

[ThirstyCruiser]

Thanks....we're sitting back waiting for tangible evidence this has indeed been a risk/problem/major cause for concern as was stated...nonetheless...the general advice is to adhere to policies...even when....like in this case...they are not founded on substance.

 

Since its likely there have been many thousands of violations for this practice, numerous examples of the results should be available.

 

Like the commercial says...still waiting...

There seems to evidence here, with a photograph of the damage:

http://www.uscg.mil/tvncoe/Documents/safetyalerts/SurgeProtectiveDevices.pdf

[chengkp75]

There seems to evidence here, with a photograph of the damage:

http://www.uscg.mil/tvncoe/Documents/safetyalerts/SurgeProtectiveDevices.pdf

 

Ah, but as a previous poster stated, that is directed to crew, so it apparently does not apply to passengers.

 

Also, since this is on a cargo ship, it also apparently doesn't apply to cruise ships. Since the USCG can only investigate an incident on US flag ships (which the two cases cited were), their database of cruise ships is very limited.

[ThirstyCruiser]

Another link I found. This one written by some random stranger on the internet claiming he is an electrical engineer in the Coast Guard.

Remember, because its on the Internet, it must be true. The only thing missing so far is a Wikipedia article on this topic!

 

 

 

For those too lazy to click, here is a copy of this guy's response. The most "plain English" explanation I have found.

The "surge protectors only" assumption is just because of a misleading NTM that the USCG put out. There are differences, HOWEVER the CG meant both of these devices (I'm an electrical engineer in the Coast Guard, both devices are prohibited unless they are marine rated) See below:

http://www.omao.noaa.gov/noaafleetinspection/safety_alerts/Surge%20Suppressors%20USCG%20Safety%20Alert%20April%202013.pdf

Essentially this article is a huge safety concern. I don't know if it explains it well. Basically ships do not use a grounded systems to get 120V. In your house, you have three hole in the outlet. 1 is hot (usually the left), one is neutral (typically the right), and the other in the bottom middle is the ground. if you stuck your hand in all the holes, only one of the holes would shock you (assuming a proper system- who knows how jacked up your grounds and distribution system may be). This is important to understand, only ONE of the conductors can shock you.

Now, let's say that I'm an electrical component manufacturer, and I want to save money by installing an automatic breaker in the protector (like most have). Why would I ever want to install more than just the one on the hot lead? Why waste the money installing a pointless breaker for the neutral line, when I can electrically isolate the entire strip by breaking the one wire?

Now, here it comes! On a ship, there is no "neutral" line in the traditional sense. In a house, you have a grounded center tapped transformer. Now a ship is a big hunk of metal that rusts quickly. You can't have a ground to the hull of the ship (or the ocean), because the electrical potential in the hull would rust the entire ship. very fast. To mitigate this (along with other, more confusing benefits) ship use an UNGROUNDED system. The consequence of this is that instead of having one line that jumps up from -120V to 120V, you now have two lines that are both -60V to 60V. This is really hard to grasp for some people. The two lines are completely out of phase, and that means that when one line is at +60, the other is at -60 (creating a potential difference of 120V). This is how every outlet on a ship is. If you stuck your finger in a ship outlet, 2 of the holes would give you a shock (albeit a little less painful).

Now, let's take your single breaker power strip on a cruise, and plug your toaster into it. Now remember, that third bottom center prong still exists, solely for safety. Being plugged into a normal outlet (surge protector not in the system), if a hot wire inside your toaster comes loose touches the metal shell of the toaster and you touch the shell, bad day. If the shell is grounded to the hull (connections inside the toaster run to that middle bottom wire), the hull is a better conductor than you, and will dissipate the current, until some grumpy electrician onboard hunts your toaster down as the ground in his system (and the culprit who is rusting the ship).

Now take that same instance and plug your grounded toaster into the power strip into the ship system. Right off the bat, the breaker in the power strip trips (and your ground-wire is touching the tripped hot). There is still half of that 120V bumping around in your toaster. Since you have effectively made a new path (hot wire, to the shell of the toaster, through the ground wire, into the hull), that 60V's worth of current will be traveling through your toaster, and into the hull. This would heat up the toaster, and depending on the location of the ground, could melt things and cause fires. Hope you learned something!

This is also explained in the NTM link I sent you at the bottom, you can see the outlets with the "60V" potential to ground.

 

 

[ThirstyCruiser]

The very first manufacturer I checked.

 

http://www.belkin.com/us/cew/

BELKIN CONNECTED EQUIPMENT WARRANTY

 

Do not use this product in anyway with a generator, heater, sump pump, water-related device, life support device, medical device, , motorcycle, marine vessel, commercial truck, aviation aircraft, or golf-cart battery charger. Belkin AC chargers are to be used indoors only and in dry areas only. Belkin DC chargers are to be used in dry areas only. All warranties contained herein are null and void if used in anyway with any of the aforementioned devices.

A more legal-ish link:

http://www.belkin.com/support/dl/CEW_7-01.pdf

 

 

Now, Belkin doesn't go so far as to say WHY it excludes its warranty on marine vessels. I'm sure their lawyers have some documentation.

 

I'm not singling out Belkin. I just wondered what the manufacturers of these devices have to say on the matter, looked at the one this computer is plugged into (I'm on land, take it easy) and put my Google machine to work.

[GottaKnowWhen]

That is the real issue. The cruise lines need to solve it by installing adequate regular and USB outlets in the cabins and placed so none needs power strips or extension cords for those who have medical devices. Can't rely on policing what passengers carry on by inspecting their bags. Or on what so called experts on Cruise Critic claim about what should be brought aboard or not and try to convince us about them. Convincing a few people here what to bring onboard is going to make little difference. Most passengers don't read Cruise Critic and even those who do don't read everything. Even of those who read this thread many are not going to change what they bring. The solution is more outlets in the cabin so passengers would not have to bring their own solutions.

 

Agree, mostly. But there alternate solutions to the issue of proliferating laptops and phones and cameras and CPAP machines and white noise generators etc etc. Of course the obvious is to unplug everything, go sit at the bar, and drink. A second is not quite so drastic, but would involve attention to and management of the battery charging process. E.g., if I have 3 back-up camera batteries and I haven't yet drained the one in the camera after the first day ashore, I really don't need to be charging that "used" one immediately. A variation on the theme would be to have one or two "power sticks" or whatever they call the general purpose batteries that can be used to power/charge most USB devices.

 

Note that there are two problems I have. One is the limited number of outlets. But even if two side-by-side outlets were enough for my two things that need charging, I can only use one at a time because the outlets are side-by-side and the two power cubes take too much room. So I need to somehow spread things out. So far this is the best I have found. http://www.amazon.com/Monster-MP-OTG400-BK-Outlets/dp/B000F9YN2M/ref=sr_1_1?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1459001669&sr=1-1&keywords=power+strips&refinements=p_n_feature_keywords_two_browse-bin%3A7306007011%2Cp_89%3AMonster I do worry that this looks too much like a (prohibited) extension cord.

I also found a newer product which may also not be surge protected...

http://www.amazon.com/Monster-Outlets-MP-OTG300-LTOP/dp/B003TXRTNG/ref=pd_sim_sbs_23_2?ie=UTF8&dpID=31B2aSJZYhL&dpSrc=sims&preST=_AC_UL160_SR160%2C160_&refRID=02MZ88V7C6Q8N7V3TRCH

 

Stan

[Charles4515]

Note that there are two problems I have. One is the limited number of outlets. But even if two side-by-side outlets were enough for my two things that need charging, I can only use one at a time because the outlets are side-by-side and the two power cubes take too much room. So I need to somehow spread things out. So far this is the best I have found.http://www.amazon.com/Monster-MP-OTG400-BK-Outlets/dp/B000F9YN2M/ref=sr_1_1?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1459001669&sr=1-1&keywords=power+strips&refinements=p_n_feature_keywords_two_browse-bin%3A7306007011%2Cp_89%3AMonster I do worry that this looks too much like a (prohibited) extension cord.

 

People should feel safe taking the Monster Outlets. I would think the Outlets to Go is what cruise lines would want passengers to bring. That is what I have for extra outlets the last five years. Four outlets, two on each side, no surge protector, short cord. It also has a circuit breaker.

Here is a picture of mine. It has a small footprint. It is not large so I don't think it would get mistaken for an extension cord even when unraveled.

 

Edited March 26, 2016 by Charles4515

[CRUISEFAN0001]

There seems to evidence here, with a photograph of the damage:

http://www.uscg.mil/tvncoe/Documents/safetyalerts/SurgeProtectiveDevices.pdf

That's old news...which I Actually referenced in a previous post.

 

The damage was on an old container ship, not a cruise ship.

 

Important to note -- " the sources of the fires were attributed to the use of SPDs plugged into a lighting circuit. It was discovered that a ground had developed on another circuit that was connected to the same distribution panel providing power to the staterooms. " [picture how some people plug in a ton of things to a single extension cord in a house - which is indeed a fire hazard]

 

In other words...there was a stacking of plugs into one another that appeared to cause this fire....something entirely different that using a UL approved surge protector unit where individual outlets are not being "double-plugged" as was the case on the cargo ship.

 

Still no evidence of even one single surge protector sourced event on a cruise ship (ever).

[chengkp75]

That's old news...which I Actually referenced in a previous post.

 

The damage was on an old container ship, not a cruise ship.

 

Important to note -- " the sources of the fires were attributed to the use of SPDs plugged into a lighting circuit. It was discovered that a ground had developed on another circuit that was connected to the same distribution panel providing power to the staterooms. " [picture how some people plug in a ton of things to a single extension cord in a house - which is indeed a fire hazard]

 

In other words...there was a stacking of plugs into one another that appeared to cause this fire....something entirely different that using a UL approved surge protector unit where individual outlets are not being "double-plugged" as was the case on the cargo ship. Not sure how you arrived at the conclusion that a ground on another circuit was "stacking of plugs into one another". With the floating ground used onboard ships, it is possible to locate grounded equipment because there is a meter and a resistor connected between each hot leg and ground, so that if there is no ground, no current flows, and the ammeter shows "infinity" for ground resistance. Now, when a piece of equipment is grounded, it will conduct current into the ground wire, which as I say goes back to the neutral point of the generator. This will show on the ammeter. Now, when you connect a surge protector which has a semi-conductor between the hot and the ground, this will reverse polarity the MOV, which it is not designed to handle, and it will fail, as did the one in the Safety Notice. The additional factor that the surge protector, which will also have MOV's from neutral to ground, did not have a circuit breaker that would open the neutral, allowed this current to continue to flow.

 

Still no evidence of even one single surge protector sourced event on a cruise ship (ever).

 

Not sure why you feel that there is a difference in wiring between cargo ships and cruise ships. Have you checked every flag state of every cruise ship, and their maritime authorities, or every classification society's case studies, since there is no international clearing house for this, and the countries or businesses involved are not required to report any of this to anyone.

[ken_nyc]

People should feel safe taking the Monster Outlets. I would think the Outlets to Go is what cruise lines would want passengers to bring. That is what I have for extra outlets the last five years. Four outlets, two on each side, no surge protector, short cord. It also has a circuit breaker.

Here is a picture of mine. It has a small footprint. It is not large so I don't think it would get mistaken for an extension cord even when unraveled.

 

 

I bought the same one recently and knew about the circuit breaker feature without surge protection. After reading these posts I decided to call Royal Caribbean and I was told that no power strips, extension cords, etc. of any kind are permitted on the ships. I told them I had one with a circuit breaker feature and was told to leave it home. I will probably leave it in the packaging so they can read it and have it in my carryon bag so I know right away if it is OK.

[chengkp75]

I bought the same one recently and knew about the circuit breaker feature without surge protection. After reading these posts I decided to call Royal Caribbean and I was told that no power strips, extension cords, etc. of any kind are permitted on the ships. I told them I had one with a circuit breaker feature and was told to leave it home. I will probably leave it in the packaging so they can read it and have it in my carryon bag so I know right away if it is OK.

 

As I've said, I believe that RCI's position is that they want to have power strips and/or extension cords that they have inspected.

[cruisinfanatic]

I just say just wrap your cord up in your heating pad and they'll never find it. Just make sure your iron and candles are in another case

[tlatrice]

How many people's electronics have been damaged on a cruise ship by not using surge protectors?

[richstowe]

As I've said, I believe that RCI's position is that they want to have power strips and/or extension cords that they have inspected.

Why do you believe this ? Ken was pretty clear that RC doesn't want people to bring on anything of any sort . " I was told that no power strips, extension cords, etc. of any kind are permitted on the ships. " You have been arguing this is a safety issue . I disagree . It's a god forbid , you never know , we have no proof but just in case let's ban it for good measure issue .:confused: How dare you try to make up your own rules .;) Edited March 26, 2016 by richstowe

[cruisinfanatic]

How many people's electronics have been damaged on a cruise ship by not using surge protectors?

None?

[CRUISEFAN0001]

How many people's electronics have been damaged on a cruise ship by not using surge protectors?

I know of 2 people...1 was surge-based for sure (sent to the manufacture for diagnostics, and the other done at a local repair location and he was told "whatever you plugged this into fried the motherboard").

[CRUISEFAN0001]

Not sure why you feel that there is a difference in wiring between cargo ships and cruise ships. Have you checked every flag state of every cruise ship, and their maritime authorities, or every classification society's case studies, since there is no international clearing house for this, and the countries or businesses involved are not required to report any of this to anyone.

Not saying there is a difference in ships....saying there was a difference in that the only example ever recorded was not related to surge protection, rather, it was based on overloading multiple plugs into a power cord.

 

This is an example of the culprit in the single case ever:

 

[chengkp75]

I know of 2 people...1 was surge-based for sure (sent to the manufacture for diagnostics, and the other done at a local repair location and he was told "whatever you plugged this into fried the motherboard").

 

In the case of the surge-based failure, what was the voltage that the circuit was exposed to? And how old was the power supply? Was it dual voltage? It would require a bit more detail for me to accept that a surge was responsible.

[Charles4515]

I bought the same one recently and knew about the circuit breaker feature without surge protection. After reading these posts I decided to call Royal Caribbean and I was told that no power strips, extension cords, etc. of any kind are permitted on the ships. I told them I had one with a circuit breaker feature and was told to leave it home. I will probably leave it in the packaging so they can read it and have it in my carryon bag so I know right away if it is OK.

 

 

If you are really paranoid about them taking it. And I am a little although I have had something like the Outlets to Go on over 50 cruises with no one taking them, the last four or five cruises I have used the European plugs since all my devices are dual voltage. Most ships have two US and two European outlets. So that gives me four of which I usually only need three. I have a couple of the adapters in my bag. They are small and don't take any space.

 

Edited March 26, 2016 by Charles4515

[cruisinfanatic]

In the case of the surge-based failure, what was the voltage that the circuit was exposed to? And how old was the power supply? Was it dual voltage? It would require a bit more detail for me to accept that a surge was responsible.

and why would the "surge" only affect that one device in the cabin?

[CRUISEFAN0001]

In the case of the surge-based failure, what was the voltage that the circuit was exposed to? And how old was the power supply? Was it dual voltage? It would require a bit more detail for me to accept that a surge was responsible.

We're on the same page with that part...but then again...there was no detail that anything beyond the piggy-backing of plugs was the culprit.

Edited March 26, 2016 by CRUISEFAN0001

[chengkp75]

Not saying there is a difference in ships....saying there was a difference in that the only example ever recorded was not related to surge protection, rather, it was based on overloading multiple plugs into a power cord.

 

This is an example of the culprit in the single case ever:

 

 

Could you please include the quote from the Safety Notice that says there was an overloading of multiple plugs into a power cord? 'Cause I sure don't see any mention of that.