High seas toilet flushing protocol - equal opportunity blame game

[OlsSalt]

The ever popular saga of high seas toilet-flushing problems plagues even the US Navy on their high tech nuclear aircraft carriers:

 

423 toilets out-of-order

 

USS George H.W. Bush carrier

 

If you have ever had to repair a toilet or two, pity the Navy plumber in charge of 130 bathrooms, 423 toilets and 250 miles of pipe. According to The Navy Times The USS George H.W. Bush aircraft carrier with 5,000 sailors onboard, currently deployed to the Persian Gulf has at least twice since the ship deployed in May 2011, all 423 commodes out of service simultaneously.

 

The Navy says it has spent 10,000 man hours fixing the toilet system on this deployment. Sailors blame the ship's vacuum system; the Navy blames sailors flushing away inappropriate material.

Edited July 13, 2016 by OlsSalt

[IRL_Joanie]

OMG!!!!!!! Definitely a nightmare for ALL involved........... Oh Man...................

 

Joanie

[frankc98376]

I'd be complaining to Guest Services and demanding an OBC :D

[TiogaCruiser]

I'd be complaining to Guest Services and demanding an OBC :D

 

Love it!

[Capt_BJ]

modern marine toilets can be very complicated

 

here's a Coast Guard Electronics Technician repairing a toilet on one of our newest cutters

 

 

REALLY ... not making this up. You need a computer to debug the system . . .

[SilvertoGold]

I'd be complaining to Guest Services and demanding an OBC :D

 

I want OBC, 2 free Pinnacle dinners, a flower arrangement and at least 6 truffles (and they better be the dark chocolate ones).

Edited July 13, 2016 by SilvertoGold

[SetAnOpenCourse]

modern marine toilets can be very complicated

 

here's a Coast Guard Electronics Technician repairing a toilet on one of our newest cutters

 

 

REALLY ... not making this up. You need a computer to debug the system . . .

 

Hopefully the computer is necessary only for diagnosing the issue. If the actual flushing is not mechanical, that's problematic!

[OlsSalt]

One toilet per 11 sailors on the aircraft carrier

 

One plus toilet per 2 passengers on HAL ships (cabin and public restrooms)

[chengkp75]

modern marine toilets can be very complicated

 

here's a Coast Guard Electronics Technician repairing a toilet on one of our newest cutters

 

REALLY ... not making this up. You need a computer to debug the system . . .

 

While they can be complex, they don't have to be. This looks like typical US government overkill. :p

 

In 40 years of working with vacuum toilets, I've never seen one that needs electricity to operate, let alone a microprocessor. All you really need is a waste valve, a water valve, and a timing device, all powered by the vacuum in the system.

 

As OlsSalt points out, most cruise ship engineers would love to only have 400+ toilets to deal with.

 

And for anything other than a single toilet not functioning, 98% of problems comes from flushing things down the toilet that don't belong, or poor piping maintenance where urine scale builds up and clogs the piping.

[chengkp75]

The ever popular saga of high seas toilet-flushing problems plagues even the US Navy on their high tech nuclear aircraft carriers:

 

423 toilets out-of-order

 

USS George H.W. Bush carrier

 

If you have ever had to repair a toilet or two, pity the Navy plumber in charge of 130 bathrooms, 423 toilets and 250 miles of pipe. According to The Navy Times The USS George H.W. Bush aircraft carrier with 5,000 sailors onboard, currently deployed to the Persian Gulf has at least twice since the ship deployed in May 2011, all 423 commodes out of service simultaneously.

 

The Navy says it has spent 10,000 man hours fixing the toilet system on this deployment. Sailors blame the ship's vacuum system; the Navy blames sailors flushing away inappropriate material.

 

If the figure of 10k man hours is from the initial deployment in 2011, then that only works out to 5.4 man hours/day which is not really unreasonable. I'm not sure how new vacuum systems are in the Navy (I know they aren't required to have treatment systems), so the inability to flush whatever you want down the hopper may be a new phenomenon onboard and may take a learning curve. Our plumbers were pretty good on determining what cabin caused problems with blockages, and if it was traced back to a crew cabin, they were fired, as this was pointed out during initial orientation when reporting or returning to the ship.

[OlsSalt]

 

And for anything other than a single toilet not functioning, 98% of problems comes from flushing things down the toilet that don't belong, or poor piping maintenance where urine scale builds up and clogs the piping.

 

Thank you for reinforcing there are things the passenger must do to keep toilets working properly; as much as what HAL also needs to do.

 

However, I also don't think HAL makes this primary passenger obligation clear enough up front, or in multiple languages now there are so many more non-English speakers on board. I wonder if they have addressed this recurrent problem more thoroughly on the Konigsdam, with a more tolerant initial system and/or better signage.

 

Again, I am of the belief there is no advantage for HAL to not do proper maintenance on the system, which I assume includes some sort of flushing to remove the built up scale. Though one hears from some posters here that HAL cuts back on "maintenance" all the time. Which never seems a likely cost-cutting argument when the end result is major passenger inconvenience and poor PR.

[chengkp75]

Thank you for reinforcing there are things the passenger must do to keep toilets working properly; as much as what HAL also needs to do.

 

However, I also don't think HAL makes this primary passenger obligation clear enough up front, or in multiple languages now there are so many more non-English speakers on board. I wonder if they have addressed this recurrent problem more thoroughly on the Konigsdam, with a more tolerant initial system and/or better signage.

 

Again, I am of the belief there is no advantage for HAL to not do proper maintenance on the system, which I assume includes some sort of flushing to remove the built up scale. Though one hears from some posters here that HAL cuts back on "maintenance" all the time. Which never seems a likely cost-cutting argument when the end result is major passenger inconvenience and poor PR.

 

Aren't there pictograms over the toilet showing what not to flush? Though I know that there is not a lot of discrimination between toilet paper and feminine hygiene products in the pictograms I've seen.

 

I'm always amused by the "cutback in maintenance" posts. Frankly, maintenance cost is not that great an area for savings. If you don't do the maintenance during operations, class is going to make you do it during drydock, at a vastly higher cost and more time constraint. As for the toilet system, there isn't a lot of maintenance, except the three components I've mentioned at the toilet itself, and the vacuum pumps, of which there are redundant multiple ones on each system.

 

With regards to scale management, this is typically done using dissolving packets of citric acid. Every week, during turn-around, the cabin stewards put one in each passenger cabin toilet, and every month during crew cabin inspections one goes in their toilets. The packet dissolves in 10 minutes, and it is flushed down, and dissolves the scale.

 

If foreign objects are not introduced to the system, vacuum toilet systems will function for years with almost no maintenance. The things we've found in the piping would amaze you.

[OlsSalt]

Now that Navy ships carry approx a 20% female crew, the issue of feminine products down the plumbing systems has become real. However considering the "average age" of most HAL ship, this would not be the over-riding disposal offense I presume.

 

In the interest of still remaining a "family channel" can you list some of the the more mentionable items one does find in these systems. My guess is "wet wipes" might take the place of "feminine hygiene" products. One would hope adult diapers would never find their way down the tubes. But those are also common consumables of the HAL demographic set.

 

Okay, this is already probably TMI - but since "toilet flush" hygiene is such a chronic complaint issue here, it is time to get a lot more specific so even the innocent and inadvertent tossers give pause in the interest of their fellow passengers.

 

Our last morning on the Zuiderdam was greeted with a non-flushing toilet and I noticed the cabins up and down our hallway close by had red plastic markers already on their doors - any connection to the plumbing line back up, or was that just marking the rooms that still needed to be made up?

[chengkp75]

Now that Navy ships carry approx a 20% female crew, the issue of feminine products down the plumbing systems has become real. However considering the "average age" of most HAL ship, this would not be the over-riding disposal offense I presume.

 

In the interest of still remaining a "family channel" can you list some of the the more mentionable items one does find in these systems. My guess is "wet wipes" might take the place of "feminine hygiene" products. One would hope adult diapers would never find their way down the tubes. But those are also common consumables of the HAL demographic set.

 

Okay, this is already probably TMI - but since "toilet flush" hygiene is such a chronic complaint issue here, it is time to get a lot more specific so even the innocent and inadvertent tossers give pause in the interest of their fellow passengers.

 

Our last morning on the Zuiderdam was greeted with a non-flushing toilet and I noticed the cabins up and down our hallway close by had red plastic markers already on their doors - any connection to the plumbing line back up, or was that just marking the rooms that still needed to be made up?

 

No clue about the red tags. I don't know HAL's policies intimately.

 

Items found in the vacuum pipes: diapers, paper towels (long rolls of them), feminine hygiene products (both types and including the applicators), underwear (more common during noro outbreaks, you form your own picture), swimwear, facecloths, hand towels, dinner napkins, crew uniforms, crack pipes, coke spoons, 6 rounds of 9mm ammunition.

 

Now, you mention "wipes", and while I would prefer that those don't get flushed, in a well maintained system, in reasonable quantities, they only present a problem down at the sewage collecting tank, and the strainers at the start of the waste water treatment system, due to their small size. But again, not flushing wipes will prevent problems.

 

I'll repeat my rebuttal of the urban myth of "special toilet paper" being needed in vacuum toilet systems. People think of marine toilets like those on a small boat. There, the toilet paper is designed to dissolve quickly so that the macerator does not clog up, and the valves in the system don't get clogged. Vacuum toilet systems are very different, and in fact work on the principle of the "product" maintaining a relatively solid "plug" to move it down the line. Think of a vacuum cleaner. If a piece of cereal is too heavy to be moved along by itself (it is smaller than the diameter of the hose), then it may lie in the hose until something larger is being sucked through the hose and pushes it along in front. This is particularly important where the toilets flush up to meet the main sewage lines in the overhead space above the passageway ceiling (pretty common). If the "product" did not retain its shape and consistancy, it might fall back down the pipe. So, the cruise lines buy the cheapest, toughest toilet paper around, to act as a binding agent for the "plug". The problem comes not with paper products that use "pressed" fibers (small, short fibers compressed into the shape of the paper) like toilet paper or facial tissues, as these will dissolve over time. The problem is with paper products that use "woven" fibers like "wet wipes" and paper towels. These, when large enough, can cause paper clogs to extend around bends in the pipe, and reduce the area of the pipe, and hence its ability to move a "plug" through it.

[SilvertoGold]

Aren't there pictograms over the toilet showing what not to flush? Though I know that there is not a lot of discrimination between toilet paper and feminine hygiene products in the pictograms I've seen.

 

I'm always amused by the "cutback in maintenance" posts. Frankly, maintenance cost is not that great an area for savings. If you don't do the maintenance during operations, class is going to make you do it during drydock, at a vastly higher cost and more time constraint. As for the toilet system, there isn't a lot of maintenance, except the three components I've mentioned at the toilet itself, and the vacuum pumps, of which there are redundant multiple ones on each system.

 

With regards to scale management, this is typically done using dissolving packets of citric acid. Every week, during turn-around, the cabin stewards put one in each passenger cabin toilet, and every month during crew cabin inspections one goes in their toilets. The packet dissolves in 10 minutes, and it is flushed down, and dissolves the scale.

 

If foreign objects are not introduced to the system, vacuum toilet systems will function for years with almost no maintenance. The things we've found in the piping would amaze you.

 

Great posts! Thanks for the info, always appreciated.

 

On a cruise ship, how many vac pumps are there, plus the redundant ones?

Is there one main one and if it fails, the whole system goes down?

[SilvertoGold]

No clue about the red tags. I don't know HAL's policies intimately.

 

Items found in the vacuum pipes: diapers, paper towels (long rolls of them), feminine hygiene products (both types and including the applicators), underwear (more common during noro outbreaks, you form your own picture), swimwear, facecloths, hand towels, dinner napkins, crew uniforms, crack pipes, coke spoons, 6 rounds of 9mm ammunition.

 

Now, you mention "wipes", and while I would prefer that those don't get flushed, in a well maintained system, in reasonable quantities, they only present a problem down at the sewage collecting tank, and the strainers at the start of the waste water treatment system, due to their small size. But again, not flushing wipes will prevent problems.

 

I'll repeat my rebuttal of the urban myth of "special toilet paper" being needed in vacuum toilet systems. People think of marine toilets like those on a small boat. There, the toilet paper is designed to dissolve quickly so that the macerator does not clog up, and the valves in the system don't get clogged. Vacuum toilet systems are very different, and in fact work on the principle of the "product" maintaining a relatively solid "plug" to move it down the line. Think of a vacuum cleaner. If a piece of cereal is too heavy to be moved along by itself (it is smaller than the diameter of the hose), then it may lie in the hose until something larger is being sucked through the hose and pushes it along in front. This is particularly important where the toilets flush up to meet the main sewage lines in the overhead space above the passageway ceiling (pretty common). If the "product" did not retain its shape and consistancy, it might fall back down the pipe. So, the cruise lines buy the cheapest, toughest toilet paper around, to act as a binding agent for the "plug". The problem comes not with paper products that use "pressed" fibers (small, short fibers compressed into the shape of the paper) like toilet paper or facial tissues, as these will dissolve over time. The problem is with paper products that use "woven" fibers like "wet wipes" and paper towels. These, when large enough, can cause paper clogs to extend around bends in the pipe, and reduce the area of the pipe, and hence its ability to move a "plug" through it.

 

Absolutely fascinating! This is something every pax needs to know, whether they want to or not.

[chengkp75]

Great posts! Thanks for the info, always appreciated.

 

On a cruise ship, how many vac pumps are there, plus the redundant ones?

Is there one main one and if it fails, the whole system goes down?

 

It depends on the ship. There will usually be several "systems" each serving an area of the ship, each with associated vacuum pumps and a small collecting tank and an automatic transfer pump to move the waste to the larger sewage tanks where the treatment plant starts. There would be 3-6 complete systems, so a complete failure of one system does not affect the others. Each system will have 3-4 vacuum pumps, and they are arranged to operate on vacuum levels. So, in a normal system, one pump will run all the time, and when the vacuum starts to fall off, due to flushing a lot of toilets, the next one will start, and so on.

 

What typically causes the failure of vacuum in toilets are:

 

A discharge valve (the valve at the toilet that holds the water in the toilet bowl) failing open, and you then have air rushing into the system relieving the vacuum.

 

A clog. This does not remove vacuum from the system, just those toilets on the pipe "upstream" of the clog. This is how we track down toilet culprits, as many times the clog does not move far from the originating toilet, and everyone around has working toilets. The farther the clog moves, the harder it is to track down.

[OlsSalt]

Many of us have encountered the "delayed" flush with HAL toilets -sometimes minutes later or even an hour or so later. What is going on when that happens? I assumed there was insufficient vacuum in the system to complete its intended cycle.

 

Any self-help tips - I have of late been pressing down on the lid with my hand to make sure there is an effective seal, but that is just purely superstitious totem on my part.

[chengkp75]

Many of us have encountered the "delayed" flush with HAL toilets -sometimes minutes later or even an hour or so later. What is going on when that happens? I assumed there was insufficient vacuum in the system to complete its intended cycle.

 

Any self-help tips - I have of late been pressing down on the lid with my hand to make sure there is an effective seal, but that is just purely superstitious totem on my part.

 

The delayed action is indeed caused by insufficient vacuum. The pushbutton on the wall actuates a vacuum line to a mechanical timer that controls the discharge valve and the water valve. Without enough vacuum, this pushbutton only moves the timer in one direction (the initiation of the flush), and it then waits until there is enough vacuum in the line to actuate it for the flush cycle. If the plumbers are roto-rooting a pair of skivvies out of the line, it may be a couple of hours before vacuum is restored to your section of pipe, and then the flush cycle will happen. Repeated pushing of the pushbutton will do nothing.

 

With regards to the lid, there is not supposed to be a "seal" there, and it should suck some air into to bowl to replace that removed by the flush. The vacuum in the piping system is isolated from the toilet bowl by a valve, and when this valve opens it sucks the bowl contents into the pipe, and then closes off to maintain the vacuum. Again, the vacuum cleaner. Hold your hand over the end of the wand, and try to pick something up (there is no vacuum in front of your hand, but there is plenty in the wand behind it), then remove your hand (open the valve), and the vacuum picks up what you want. Put your hand over the end again, and you hear the vacuum "rev" up, which is actually the fan building more vacuum, just like the pump does to the vacuum in the pipes.

[OlsSalt]

The delayed action is indeed caused by insufficient vacuum. The pushbutton on the wall actuates a vacuum line to a mechanical timer that controls the discharge valve and the water valve. Without enough vacuum, this pushbutton only moves the timer in one direction (the initiation of the flush), and it then waits until there is enough vacuum in the line to actuate it for the flush cycle. If the plumbers are roto-rooting a pair of skivvies out of the line, it may be a couple of hours before vacuum is restored to your section of pipe, and then the flush cycle will happen. Repeated pushing of the pushbutton will do nothing.

 

With regards to the lid, there is not supposed to be a "seal" there, and it should suck some air into to bowl to replace that removed by the flush. The vacuum in the piping system is isolated from the toilet bowl by a valve, and when this valve opens it sucks the bowl contents into the pipe, and then closes off to maintain the vacuum. Again, the vacuum cleaner. Hold your hand over the end of the wand, and try to pick something up (there is no vacuum in front of your hand, but there is plenty in the wand behind it), then remove your hand (open the valve), and the vacuum picks up what you want. Put your hand over the end again, and you hear the vacuum "rev" up, which is actually the fan building more vacuum, just like the pump does to the vacuum in the pipes.

 

I strongly believe now more than ever every HAL passenger needs a tutorial about these systems they will now be depending upon for the duration of their cruise time. Obviously, my "self help" was not helping, nor did it "work" on that last morning when nothing would make the system behave.

 

In retrospect it would have been good to engineer a little light into each unit to indicate if there was sufficient vacuum in the line to deliver the expected results.

 

$64,000 question. Now we know the Navy has similar problems, as well as HAL ships, are there any other cruise lines who would not suffer similar issues if they also have passengers who "don't follow the rules" if they also have these vacuum flush systems?

 

There are reports here from time to time from passengers who say they had no use of their cabin toilets for days - what goes that wrong with the systems when we hear reports like that.

 

And how successful are the repair technicians in pin-pointing the actual source (cabin) of the offending blockage material.

[SilvertoGold]

My next question was going to be about how the water valve is regulated (not by a float!).

 

So, the mechanical timer regulates both the discharge valve and the water valve. Clever system.

 

Now, another question: if your toilet is on the way to overflowing (ie the water doesn't stop filling into the bowl), you push in the pushbutton, correct? And that does what?

[chengkp75]

I strongly believe now more than ever every HAL passenger needs a tutorial about these systems they will now be depending upon for the duration of their cruise time. Obviously, my "self help" was not helping, nor did it "work" on that last morning when nothing would make the system behave.

 

In retrospect it would have been good to engineer a little light into each unit to indicate if there was sufficient vacuum in the line to deliver the expected results.

 

$64,000 question. Now we know the Navy has similar problems, as well as HAL ships, are there any other cruise lines who would not suffer similar issues if they also have passengers who "don't follow the rules" if they also have these vacuum flush systems?

 

There are reports here from time to time from passengers who say they had no use of their cabin toilets for days - what goes that wrong with the systems when we hear reports like that.

 

And how successful are the repair technicians in pin-pointing the actual source (cabin) of the offending blockage material.

 

Typically, a multi-day down time for a section of the system is caused by a clog. The plumbers will determine where the clog is located by determining where in the system there is vacuum and where there isn't. They will then open a clean out plug and get a power drain cleaner (roto-rooter) to start cutting through the clog. Things like towels can be difficult to cut through. I've had a section of 6-8 pax cabins with no toilets for 3 days because one of the guests in one of those cabins flushed a swimsuit down the hopper. It became stuck in a spot that was particularly difficult to get at, so it took several days to get it cleared. The pipes are small, 2" in diameter, which is one of the advantages of the vacuum system (the pipes don't increase in size as more lines enter the system, they way sewer lines in your house go from 1.5" under the sink to 4"-6" where it leaves the house), so getting the snake around corners can be difficult.

 

In that case, I was only able to tell that the blockage came from one of 6-8 cabins. I personally met all the passengers in those cabins, and informed them of the cause of the problem (using a visual aid of the swimsuit remains in a plastic bag), and identifying the cabins where it would have come from. This caused some peer pressure (and the "stink eye" between these passengers), and the offending party finally came forward.

[chengkp75]

My next question was going to be about how the water valve is regulated (not by a float!).

 

So, the mechanical timer regulates both the discharge valve and the water valve. Clever system.

 

Now, another question: if your toilet is on the way to overflowing (ie the water doesn't stop filling into the bowl), you push in the pushbutton, correct? And that does what?

 

If the discharge valve has functioned, and the "product" has gone down, but the toilet continues to fill, then yes, continuing to push the button and flushing will control the problem while someone calls for maintenance. If the discharge valve has not worked, and there is "product" still in the bowl, then continuing to push the button will cause the water valve to cycle repeatedly and will cause a toilet that is only not flushing to now overflow.

[SilvertoGold]

OK, understood.

 

Now, the mechanical timer opens the water valve. What closes it and shuts off the water?

Edited July 15, 2016 by SilvertoGold

[chengkp75]

OK, understood.

 

Now, the mechanical timer opens the water valve. What closes it and shuts off the water?

 

Another mechanical timer on the water valve.