Does loyalty matter?

[richsea]

No need to a thread on that topic. The answer is no.

 

Perhaps we need a thread about the definition of "fair".

 

 

.

 

No problem from this end. I now know to just bypass the thread now that its become a discussion between 2 or 3 about UK consumer law.

[AnOnymously]

Is this the most up to date EU Travel Directive?http://ec.europa.eu/consumers/consumer_rights/travel/package/index_en.htm

 

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=OJ:L:2015:326:TOC

 

It didn't appear to come into force until 31/12/15 and individual member states will have up to 2018 to come up with local legislation.

By 2018 the UK will have left the EU.

 

The quote I gave earlier is about the Consumer Rights Act 2015.

Excessive cancellation fees

 

Terms that allow the trader to take too much of your money if you back out of a contract can be unfair.

If you want to end a contract, a trader can claim for administration and marketing costs and for any work they had started and loss of profit but no more.

 

 

But I am still waiting for those who have frequently claimed that the regulation in the UK PREVENTS non-returnable deposits.

 

 

I think this staement needs some proof too and the labour here to book cruises for Celebrity is done by homeworkers.

 

 

Cost of labor in UK is much higher than US shore side is, so keeping deposits adds to the till to cover some of that extra cost for operating in the UK as a small example.

 

 

People should only make statements as part of an arguement that they can offer some proof that it is true and how it impacts what is being said. I can make up many things about the USA is that how we want to proceed?

 

 

I go back to asking if Celebrity really want customers and want them to be loyal from the rest of the world, it would seem not to me.

[cle-guy]

By 2018 the UK will have left the EU.

 

The quote I gave earlier is about the Consumer Rights Act 2015.

 

 

 

But I am still waiting for those who have frequently claimed that the regulation in the UK PREVENTS non-returnable deposits.

 

 

I think this staement needs some proof too and the labour here to book cruises for Celebrity is done by homeworkers.

 

People should only make statements as part of an arguement that they can offer some proof that it is true and how it impacts what is being said. I can make up many things about the USA is that how we want to proceed?

 

I've operated a business in London. I know what I paid my retail store staff there versus what I paid them here in our shop trading about UK 750,000 per month turnover. UK 14/hour was the UK rate, and USA the rate was US$9/hour. SO I use that as a basis. I also know my beer in the USA cost me US$5 and in the UK GBP5 . Celebrity have plenty of staff there doing many things, even for those booking online.

 

In my post I posted where its stated (as others have) where it's not the law at all. It is indeed custom. Trading customs vary from country to country.

Edited October 25, 2016 by cle-guy

[AnOnymously]

I've operated a business in London. I know what I paid my retail store staff there versus what I paid them here in our shop trading about UK 750,000 per month turnover. UK 14/hour was the UK rate, and USA the rate was US$9/hour. SO I use that as a basis. I also know my beer in the USA cost me US$5 and in the UK GBP5 . Celebrity have plenty of staff there doing many things, even for those booking online.

 

In my post I posted where its stated (as others have) where it's not the law at all. It is indeed custom. Trading customs vary from country to country.

 

And you are seriously telling us that the few staff employed in the UK, some of which are homewrokers, justify a $400 non returnable deposit against a $25 returnable deposit in the States. LOL.

[SheriffJoe]

And you are seriously telling us that the few staff employed in the UK, some of which are homewrokers, justify a $400 non returnable deposit against a $25 returnable deposit in the States. LOL.

 

Sounds legit to me...what difference does it make if someone works from home......the bottom line is either book with X or don't, X chooses to operate in the UK as your customs norm, X operates here within our customs norm.... makes sense to me........love it or leave it...

[DYKWIA]

I've operated a business in London. I know what I paid my retail store staff there versus what I paid them here in our shop

 

Trying to compare operating a retail store in London with operating out of an industrial unit at a disused British racetrack in Surrey - they're completely different. Most organisations have to pay higher wages to staff based in London.

[villauk]

 

In my post I posted where its stated (as others have) where it's not the law at all. It is indeed custom. Trading customs vary from country to country.

 

Agreed, Curt, as I stated earlier, it's more about being 'normal standard practice' - not fair, but standard practice in that country.

 

The article below is very interesting and highlights the fact about being in breach of contract if one cancels a holiday booked in the UK. It also states that the charges for cancellation appear to be fair in most instances and relate back to the T&C one agreed to when initially booking the holiday n.b. the article was updated very recently.

 

 

Cancelling a Holiday:

Firstly, check your booking conditions. It’s quite likely that the tour operator is within their rights to deny you a full refund, however unfair that seems, because they will have set out the terms in their brochure.

 

Tour operator cancellation charges are usually calculated on a sliding scale, with the cost of a late cancellation increasing as you get closer to the departure date of the holiday. Legally, by cancelling your holiday you are in breach of your contract with the trader, the tour company, and this means that they are entitled to compensation for that breach of contract just as you would be if they had done the same to you. The Office of Fair Trading actually looked at these clauses under the scope of the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999, back in 2003, and decided that in most cases, cancellation charges weren’t disproportionate.

 

The cancellation charge can be almost as much as the entire cost of the holiday, unfortunately. If you cancel a holiday earlier with more notice, you may only lose your deposit, which is reasonable as the holiday company will have a much better chance of reselling the holiday and therefore you’re only paying a nominal amount for their inconvenience.

 

 

http://www.yourtravelrights.co.uk/your-advice-we-need-cancel-our-holiday.html

 

Anon

FYI, the normal US deposits (not part of any sale) are actually higher than the UK: $450 pp (£370) as opposed to paying £150 pp ($183 pp) ;). They also have a 90 day final payment date, whereas ours is 57 days prior to sailing. So there are differences throughout.

 

You will also find Australia have different T&C. I believe they have to have their gratuities in the total amount shown when booking (only from what has been reported on the boards about reserving in Australia, so don't take this as gospel). Unsure when their FP date is? Additionally, there was another post recently from Asia where the pax was required to produce a medical certificate in order to book with their local X agent (again, for reference, only what is posted on CC by other pax).

 

As you stated, I'm sure our circumstances will change once again when Brexit is sorted.

 

 

DYKWIA

 

Surrey isn't London :eek: - anywhere south of Brum is The Smoke :D.

Edited October 26, 2016 by villauk

[DYKWIA]

...

You will also find Australia have different T&C. I believe they have to have their gratuities in the total amount shown when booking (only from what has been reported on the boards about reserving in Australia, so don't take this as gospel). ..

 

Think this also applies to UK bookings. You can't advertise a price with hidden compulsory additional up-front fees.

 

i.e. it used to be the case that they would advertise a price for £X when you came to book you would be told that only Select Dining was available and you MUST prepay gratuities - so the actual price was £X + a compulsory charge. That has now changed. Additional Prepaid gratuities are no longer required (still optional) on all UK Bookings

 

The one difference that I do think is unfair and discriminatory against UK bookers is the cabin assignment policy on Guarantee Cabin bookings (i.e. those booking in the US can change the cabin assigned, UK bookers cannot) which can mean that UK bookers will end up with the worst cabins

Edited October 26, 2016 by DYKWIA

[villauk]

Think this also applies to UK bookings. You can't advertise a price with hidden compulsory up front fees.

 

i.e. it used to be the case that they would advertise a price for £X when you came to book you would be told that only Select Dining was available and you MUST prepay gratuities - so the actual price was £X + a compulsory charge. That has now changed.

 

The only one difference that I do think is unfair and discriminatory against UK bookers is the cabin assignment policy on Guarantee Cabin bookings (i.e. those booking in the US can change the cabin assigned, UK bookers cannot) which can mean that UK bookers will end up with the worst cabins

 

I'm not too sure if they are added to the initial price for Australians, rather than just stating them like they do over here? A local would have to confirm either way their 'standard practice' arrangements. As for the GTY issue, one reason why I wouldn't book a GTY cabin over here ;). I have done via my US TA and have moved accordingly after allocation :). Can't imagine what possible reasons there could be for not allowing that one :confused:?

[PostcardJar]

Seems to me to be pretty standard business practice to offer new customers some perks/discounts to get their business. We see it with cable and phone providers all the time. Long time customers who enroll in CC get some extra perks--though the points made in earlier posts about free cocktail parties not being a great perk when I book and get the beverage package are great points. There are additional perks, like laundry and internet that are nice, though.

 

I agree...work with a good TA and see what kind of magic they can work for you. If they are a large enough volume cruise seller, the line wants to keep them happy, as well...as they steer customers to and from the line. How do they keep the TA happy? By helping with prices/perks.

 

We're excited...we will soon take our 5th cruise (and our 5th with X). We love the brand and the product. We are CC Select members for this cruise, but will squeak into Elite status (by 2 points) after this cruise so look forward to more loyalty perks.

[AnOnymously]

Sounds legit to me...what difference does it make if someone works from home......the bottom line is either book with X or don't, X chooses to operate in the UK as your customs norm, X operates here within our customs norm.... makes sense to me........love it or leave it...

 

Presume the sounds "legit to me" refers to the fact that a pint of beer costs more in UK than USA. I wonder where he buys his beer the Hilton in Hyde Park? I would never pay £5 for a pint, must have seen him coming! Put the price up when they heard the accent. Got it Celebrity pay their workers in beer in the UK.

 

Homeworkers work on commission and Celebrity dictate that, if it is like workers on the ship, from what you tell me on here, that will be rock bottom.

 

The OP was making the case that higher prices and non-returnable deposits in the Uk had something to do with wages, but the UK staff is far less than USA and small compared to the number of users.

 

But if you mean legit that it is legal, well mabe, but cancelling a holiday and rebooking the same holiday, same cabin and having to lose ones whole deposit may well not be legal, the jury is out on that one. But they are not allowed to simply take all they have to be able to show that they had costs relating to the amount or it is an unfair T/C and that means they cannot enforce the T/C.

 

[qoute] love it or leave it

 

Spot on, I have consistently said this will be my first and last cruise with Celebrity, and since we booked on Jet Set Sail and talked about it with interested friends and relatives, I have said "BUT DON'T BOOK WITH THIS LOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES"

 

Celebrity do seem to be having problems filling their JSS from UK, what went quickly is now sticking, but by their policies they do not want UK customers, IMHO.

Edited October 26, 2016 by AnOnymously

[jagoffee]

 

Spot on, I have consistently said this will be my first and last cruise with Celebrity, and since we booked on Jet Set Sail and talked about it with interested friends and relatives, I have said "BUT DON'T BOOK WITH THIS LOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES"

 

Celebrity do seem to be having problems filling their JSS from UK, what went quickly is now sticking, but by their policies they do not want UK customers, IMHO.

 

Are you saying the the Standard Practice for Celebrity U.K. bookings are different than those on other cruise lines? I thought they were the same.

[shipshape sam]

Am I reading these posts correctly?

 

There is no legal requirement NOR prohibition on the refund of a customer's deposit in the UK. There is the business practice by companies of keeping the deposit if canceling the trip/contract and all that is needed is for the company to disclose this term of the contract between the company and consumer at time of entering into the contract?

 

If this is correct, a cruise line, (lets say Celebrity just for fun) could not write into their contract the lost of the full deposit, but use maybe a scale? Further, I would think that a company could even wave that provision if they choose to do so it they feel so inclined or the circumstances provided some compelling rational for waiver of keeping a large deposit.

 

If the above is correct, then you would think the company would have a competitive edge. I think I might look at that feature/benefit as a reason to book with that company over a competitor.

 

If I am incorrect and by law, the deposit is kept by company, then move to US if that is such financial burden. There is no waiting line via Mexico right now. US is offering lots of benefits that might compensate the lost of deposits.

Edited October 26, 2016 by shipshape sam

[AnOnymously]

Am I reading these posts correctly?

 

There is no legal requirement NOR prohibition on the refund of a customer's deposit in the UK. There is the business practice by companies of keeping the deposit if canceling the trip/contract and all that is needed is for the company to disclose this term of the contract between the company and consumer at time of entering into the contract?

 

If this is correct, a cruise line, (lets say Celebrity just for fun) could not write into their contract the lost of the full deposit, but use maybe a scale? Further, I would think that a company could even wave that provision if they choose to do so it they feel so inclined or the circumstances provided some compelling rational for waiver of keeping a large deposit.

 

If the above is correct, then you would think the company would have a competitive edge. I think I might look at that feature/benefit as a reason to book with that company over a competitor.

 

If I am incorrect and by law, the deposit is kept by company, then move to US if that is such financial burden. There is no waiting line via Mexico right now. US is offering lots of benefits that might compensate the lost of deposits.

 

If for any reason, for most travel companies, we cancel before final payment then at least the whole of any deposit is taken. If that is what is said in the T/C's. It can be that if one cancels, even before final payment, that one might be asked to make a payment to the company and that is on a sliding scale of how close to holiday the cancellation is made. But as I have raised below, there are some new regulations last year that spell out what might be an unfair T/C which takes the whole of the deposit if that does not relate to actual costs. Quite what they can include is unclear to me.

 

The issues being raised though are in a context. The context is the massive swings in prices that Celebrity do. Couple that with non-returnable depost and it means that we can lose a great deal of money in such circumstance and little redress. For me it was going to be about $1200 loss with a $400 dollar deposit. Yes one forfeited the deposit, but leaves a very bitter taste.

 

The difference is that some of the cruise lines which cater for the UK market do not have such massive swings of price, yes there are some reductions and offers like drinks packages included but certainly not massive swings a year before sailing.

 

Trouble is that people, like me, who have no idea of how Celebrity behaves, and in North America you can walk away easilly, are daft enough to book. I only discovered the massive price change when family talked about doing the cruise as well. So I went back and looked at what was available and discovered the massive price drop (4 days later after booking!). Then that we could not get anything of the new deal without cancelleing and rebooking, losing our deposit. Our family were shocked and simply said "Don't bother for us". So Celebrity lost several bookings. Having got used to the idea of the cruise and Jet Set Sail looked at it for a while before booking, we decided to cancel and re-book, same cruise, same cabin, same aircraft. But I did not leave it alone and got a Good Will gesture. Very kind, just won't sail with them again and risk the same thing happening.

 

So now I just tell everyone who asks me about our holidays to keep away.

[jagoffee]

If for any reason, for most travel companies, we cancel before final payment then at least the whole of any deposit is taken. If that is what is said in the T/C's. It can be that if one cancels, even before final payment, that one might be asked to make a payment to the company and that is on a sliding scale of how close to holiday the cancellation is made. But as I have raised below, there are some new regulations last year that spell out what might be an unfair T/C which takes the whole of the deposit if that does not relate to actual costs. Quite what they can include is unclear to me.

 

The issues being raised though are in a context. The context is the massive swings in prices that Celebrity do. Couple that with non-returnable depost and it means that we can lose a great deal of money in such circumstance and little redress. For me it was going to be about $1200 loss with a $400 dollar deposit. Yes one forfeited the deposit, but leaves a very bitter taste.

 

The difference is that some of the cruise lines which cater for the UK market do not have such massive swings of price, yes there are some reductions and offers like drinks packages included but certainly not massive swings a year before sailing.

 

Trouble is that people, like me, who have no idea of how Celebrity behaves, and in North America you can walk away easilly, are daft enough to book. I only discovered the massive price change when family talked about doing the cruise as well. So I went back and looked at what was available and discovered the massive price drop (4 days later after booking!). Then that we could not get anything of the new deal without cancelleing and rebooking, losing our deposit. Our family were shocked and simply said "Don't bother for us". So Celebrity lost several bookings. Having got used to the idea of the cruise and Jet Set Sail looked at it for a while before booking, we decided to cancel and re-book, same cruise, same cabin, same aircraft. But I did not leave it alone and got a Good Will gesture. Very kind, just won't sail with them again and risk the same thing happening.

 

So now I just tell everyone who asks me about our holidays to keep away.

 

Thank you for the summary. Too bad because most of my Celebrity cruises do not have price drops, but occasionally they do. Princess as well. I am sure that you can find a cruise line that never has a price drop, but I suspect they are more expensive.

Airlines and car rental companies must be a great aggravation. Airfares are the worst for us as very few except SouthWest have price protection.

 

I never book a flight or cruise that I would not be happy with the price I book.

 

Good luck.

[shipshape sam]

If for any reason, for most travel companies, we cancel before final payment then at least the whole of any deposit is taken. If that is what is said in the T/C's. It can be that if one cancels, even before final payment, that one might be asked to make a payment to the company and that is on a sliding scale of how close to holiday the cancellation is made. But as I have raised below, there are some new regulations last year that spell out what might be an unfair T/C which takes the whole of the deposit if that does not relate to actual costs. Quite what they can include is unclear to me.

 

The issues being raised though are in a context. The context is the massive swings in prices that Celebrity do. Couple that with non-returnable depost and it means that we can lose a great deal of money in such circumstance and little redress. For me it was going to be about $1200 loss with a $400 dollar deposit. Yes one forfeited the deposit, but leaves a very bitter taste.

 

The difference is that some of the cruise lines which cater for the UK market do not have such massive swings of price, yes there are some reductions and offers like drinks packages included but certainly not massive swings a year before sailing.

 

Trouble is that people, like me, who have no idea of how Celebrity behaves, and in North America you can walk away easilly, are daft enough to book. I only discovered the massive price change when family talked about doing the cruise as well. So I went back and looked at what was available and discovered the massive price drop (4 days later after booking!). Then that we could not get anything of the new deal without cancelleing and rebooking, losing our deposit. Our family were shocked and simply said "Don't bother for us". So Celebrity lost several bookings. Having got used to the idea of the cruise and Jet Set Sail looked at it for a while before booking, we decided to cancel and re-book, same cruise, same cabin, same aircraft. But I did not leave it alone and got a Good Will gesture. Very kind, just won't sail with them again and risk the same thing happening.

 

So now I just tell everyone who asks me about our holidays to keep away.

 

So absent the price swings, the lost of deposit when canceling is normal business practice in UK.

 

So, with a cancelation and rebooking, you should have saved $800 over what you originally paid, thus 2/3 of the price reduction without getting Celebrity corporate involved. I understand the concern with price swings and booking early, but canceling and NOT rebooking sends the better message would you not think? In previous post, any one of us when taking a 'stand' most likely will have to pay a price for that principled position. As I understand it, you got a good will gesture, this time, and assume it was for more than the $800 as you should have been able to get that without Celebrity corporate involvement.

 

 

Wishing you a great cruise. An oh by the way, I am not watching the NFL over here this year. May extend it, but I miss watching games at times, but have found that by doing another activity at same time the games are televised on Sunday here, I don't miss them as much as I thought I might.

 

Thus, I am taking a stand and I am paying a price too! Fight the good fight over there for a better cancellation policy with cruise lines and other companies too! Principles are not to be taken lightly! They should be valued!

Edited October 27, 2016 by shipshape sam

[AnOnymously]

Thank you for the summary. Too bad because most of my Celebrity cruises do not have price drops, but occasionally they do. Princess as well. I am sure that you can find a cruise line that never has a price drop, but I suspect they are more expensive.

Airlines and car rental companies must be a great aggravation. Airfares are the worst for us as very few except SouthWest have price protection.

 

I never book a flight or cruise that I would not be happy with the price I book.

 

Good luck.

 

Some of the cruise lines which cater mainly for UK customers do not have such price drops, as far as I can see from my dealings with them and they are not expensive when this Celebrity Cruise cost $5000 dollars before the fall in price of 25%.

 

and assume it was for more than the $800 as you should have been able to get that without Celebrity corporate involvement

I wish.

So absent the price swings,

Sorry the price swings were the real problem, so one cannot do that. Without the massive price swing a non-returnable deposit is acceptable, but not when one is locked in to such a massive price drop. That is unaceptable to me and many I know.

 

Don't book airlines but hire cars are usually same priced from my experience, at least in the UK.

 

There is a saying in the UK

"Once bitten, twice shy".

Edited October 27, 2016 by AnOnymously

[shipshape sam]

Some of the cruise lines which cater mainly for UK customers do not have such price drops, as far as I can see from my dealings with them and they are not expensive when this Celebrity Cruise cost $5000 dollars before the fall in price of 25%.

 

Don't book airlines but hire cars are usually same priced from my experience, at least in the UK.

 

There is a saying in the UK

"Once bitten, twice shy".

 

 

Similar saying is:

 

 

"Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me.”

[awhcruiser]

Ship happens

I'm a long time Celebrity only cruiser. Today I went on the site to check on an upcoming cruise. I find out that new bookings only receive a substantial discount on my upcoming cruise. I spoke with celebrity and they would not let me upgrade my current holiday booking. Is this right? Should I stick with this line?

[The_Big_M]

If the above is correct, then you would think the company would have a competitive edge. I think I might look at that feature/benefit as a reason to book with that company over a competitor.

 

I believe any "competitive edge" would be negligible.

 

For example, here (as in the US) some TAs charge cancellation costs on top, and others don't. Yet this is such a tiny detail in the scheme of things that most don't check, and of those who do, other factors weigh into it such as certainty of plans, competitive cost anyway and other terms e.g. discounted deposits and OBC.

 

As such, it's simpler to keep the money rolling in rather than offer something that will reduce revenue without significant benefit. If people still like your product more; or you offer better perceived value, customers will still book with you over <other competing cruise line>. And if you don't offer those I'm sure that the fact you refund cancellation fees more won't sway them from booking with competitors!

[AnOnymously]

 

As such, it's simpler to keep the money rolling in rather than offer something that will reduce revenue without significant benefit. If people still like your product more; or you offer better perceived value, customers will still book with you over <other competing cruise line>. And if you don't offer those I'm sure that the fact you refund cancellation fees more won't sway them from booking with competitors!

 

It sure dissades me from booking with them again especially with such price swings. That is a customer who would probably have booked more cruises if the product was right, and many say the experience on board is great, but not with these price swings and being locked in. So others offering it would get my vote, but lines just not doing these silly price fluctuations will certainly get my money for my next cruise and that rues out Celebrity.

 

As shipshape sam says

"Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me.”