Berlitz Downgrading

[bitob]

bitob - I understand your feelings, having been one who has said things have not been as good as they should be lately. However, these new staff members will by now be getting more used to the SB routines, and I am sure things will be more like they should be (which is an exceptionally high standard compared with many other lines) by now.

 

We were told on Sojourn a few weeks ago a) that there were fewer complaints than there had been recently, and b) that things would get better shortly as the new staff got more used to everything. This was not much consolation to those who were on board when this was said, but I genuinely believe that every week the standard will improve. New staff have to study a lot, and pass exams, when they are first on board, and it is very hard for them until this has been achieved.

 

I do hope and think you will enjoy your first Seabourn cruise - and please let everyone here know what you thought on your return. For most new passengers it is a major upping in standards from the 3 or 4 star lines.

 

 

Thanks. We are regular Oceania cruisers. We are used to good food and good service (we love having a butler) but we are not "difficult" to please. I think we are low maintenance compared to many cruisers I know. We have 2 Seabourn cruises booked having heard wonderful things about the line. I remain hopeful and I will post afterwards

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Forums

[2SailingNomads]

Thanks. We are regular Oceania cruisers. We are used to good food and good service (we love having a butler) but we are not "difficult" to please. I think we are low maintenance compared to many cruisers I know. We have 2 Seabourn cruises booked having heard wonderful things about the line. I remain hopeful and I will post afterwards

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Forums

 

Well if you take the attitude you say you do then I think you will have a great cruise. Not what you posted on another thread, but I hope you enjoy your time on-board. No cruise is perfect for anyone, each have the good and not so.

Cheers! And on Seabourn you don't have to pick up the check.

[Emperor Norton]

It must seem strange to 'new readers' how anomalous the recent reports on SB ships are. Obviously some people have not encountered what have been sometimes very noticeable staffing problems - they were lucky.

 

Those who have in the past been Seabourn enthusiasts - I count amongst these shefinch, jenidallas and myself for example - do not lightly complain about our cruises. To my mind the principal problem has been, over the past few months, a large number of new staff trying to learn the job, supervised by a too small number of senior staff. This so that experienced hands could be sent off to Encore.

 

I personally blame the management of the line entirely, in not thinking through the consequences of not taking new staff gradually, in small numbers at a time, to lessen the impact on the existing ships. From my own experience and what I have read here, Odyssey has suffered the most, then Sojourn, with Quest having lost a lower proportion of staff.

 

Seabourn have spent a fortune on new ships and the TK introduction, and to my mind are trying to save elsewhere. I don't know what others think?

 

I preferred the experienced staff on the little sisters. The on the Odyssey, I still preferred them. It was sadly quite easy to tell (for the most part - there were a few good exceptions) who came up on the little ships versus the Odyssey class. The TK thing made no sense to me as he stresses uber fresh and that's not happening on a ship. Also tweezing micro greens or flower petals in rough seas?

[cruisr]

i simply do not understand why that TK grill was necessary - years ago SB spent a lot of money on royalties for another famous " media known" chef from NY - few people did appreciate that cooking style.

 

I and all of my friends and family loved Charlie Palmer. I was on a number of cruises where he was onboard also. I think the Chef de Cuisine on Seabourn did a great job with the Charlie Palmer dishes. Haven't been on since TK was introduced, going in 2017, but my friends that went in June (5 of them) loved and raved about TK. Looking forward to trying it.

[Bob Ross]

We have travelled with Seabourn twice and found it excellent. I am concerned at the down grading by Berlitz. Can people tell me what has changed? Berlitz seem to say that they have started serving Presseco instead of champagne as part of their inclusive drinks. Is this true (maybe not big issue in itself but indicative) - I suspect this is not true at all

[Chairsin]

Prosecco is often served now at cocktail receptions. I usually simply ask the waiter if it prosecco and if it is ask them to bring up two glasses of champagne instead. Seriously not a big deal. Seabourn is still wonderful in my book and I don't pay attention to ratings.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Forums

[Bob Ross]

Prosecco is often served now at cocktail receptions. I usually simply ask the waiter if it prosecco and if it is ask them to bring up two glasses of champagne instead. Seriously not a big deal. Seabourn is still wonderful in my book and I don't pay attention to ratings.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Forums

 

I meant to say that I have not read this in Berlitz myself but was told this.I suspected that the information I was given was not correct (and that Berlitz probably did not even say it). Thank you for your explanation and it sounds like SB are maintaining the standards we enjoyed so much. Interested to hear other people's views but I am looking to book a cruise in the summer (probably on Odyssey) and are confident we will love it again!

[Gercru]

A quote from Berlitz:

Note that quality has been reduced substantially... disappointing cheese and meat selections...,prosecco is served rather than champagne...all in all it's a much less upmarket product than previously.

[markham]

Berlitz? What nonsense.

 

We have been on board Sojourn for a month in the Mediterranean and have never been offered prosecco. And we have imbibed lots of champagne. With plenty of complimentary caviar, in case anyone was interested. Nor have we experienced any issues regarding cheese and meat selections. Same quality, with variations according to our relative locations, as we enjoyed during our 11 week South Pacific cruise on Odyssey early this year.

 

Maybe Berlitz should stick to those handy pocket-sized first time tourist guides with routine Italian, French and Spanish phrases. Criticizing the top luxury cruise line with baseless assertions won't do their credibility or their brand much good, obviously.

 

Happy and healthy cruising!

[vistaman]

I and all of my friends and family loved Charlie Palmer. I was on a number of cruises where he was onboard also. I think the Chef de Cuisine on Seabourn did a great job with the Charlie Palmer dishes. Haven't been on since TK was introduced, going in 2017, but my friends that went in June (5 of them) loved and raved about TK. Looking forward to trying it.

 

i can tell you some of the chefs - cannot write the names but 4 of them for sure - on the triplets were not happy at all to prepare the CP dishes

[vistaman]

A quote from Berlitz:

Note that quality has been reduced substantially... disappointing cheese and meat selections...,prosecco is served rather than champagne...all in all it's a much less upmarket product than previously.

 

it is very true that prosecco is served during the parties !! the complimentary champagne Feuillatte was a special request :( contrarely to the triplets years ago.

the cheese plates served during dinner were extremely small - less than 2 ounces -and the cheeses on the buffet for lunch are indeed very basic as are the cold cuts cuts for breakfast

however SB is not the only one

last month i was pax in Queen Grill degree on Queen Victoria and Champagne was not possible ( too expensive on the bar menu :eek:) during the party for Grill degree pax. a sparkling wine was served as "champagne"

on SS pax also do receive prosecco as welcome board as "champagne"

and on Crystal the welcome "champagne" is as French sparkling wine from the Loire area . ( despite the complimentary Jacquart is available in the bar )

same management for a previously 5 starred line and a 4 starred or plus ( HAL ) is not working but when are the top people of Carnival Co going to understand it ?

it seems real luxury and Carnival does not work at all !

still homesick for the great days on the Pride and the Legend ( never did the Spirit ) :o

[markham]

Vistaman,

 

I stand by my last post. And I am on Sojourn now watching the sunset over Oman. Just picture it with the royal yachts in the foreground... We have a sea day tomorrow, then it's Doha, and finally for us our disembarkation on Monday in Dubai.

 

About the parties on board I reiterate: One can ask for champagne anytime and be served it immediately, irrespective of what you see passed around or waiting on trays. And about cheese courses at meals, you can ask anytime for double portions or your own choice of cheeses. Simple as that.

 

Now I don't want to bother discussing what happens on Cunard which operates its restaurants and bars differently and does not offer "free" parties with "free" drinks anywhere or at anytime except for what passes as such after a long queue when you can greet the captain.

 

So... if you find Hapag Lloyd or maybe Silversea more agreeable in terms of champagne and cheeses, please report your views. That type of information might be useful to those looking at this segment of luxury cruise ship companies.

 

Happy and healthy sailing!

[frantic36]

it is very true that prosecco is served during the parties !! the complimentary champagne Feuillatte was a special request :( contrarely to the triplets years ago.

the cheese plates served during dinner were extremely small - less than 2 ounces -and the cheeses on the buffet for lunch are indeed very basic as are the cold cuts cuts for breakfast

however SB is not the only one

last month i was pax in Queen Grill degree on Queen Victoria and Champagne was not possible ( too expensive on the bar menu :eek:) during the party for Grill degree pax. a sparkling wine was served as "champagne"

on SS pax also do receive prosecco as welcome board as "champagne"

and on Crystal the welcome "champagne" is as French sparkling wine from the Loire area . ( despite the complimentary Jacquart is available in the bar )

same management for a previously 5 starred line and a 4 starred or plus ( HAL ) is not working but when are the top people of Carnival Co going to understand it ?

it seems real luxury and Carnival does not work at all !

still homesick for the great days on the Pride and the Legend ( never did the Spirit ) :o

 

 

I have always had the Feuilette when I have ordered it from the Club or Observation Bar. I rarely go to Club Parties so I am not sure what they serve. If I want a better champagne I order it from the premium list.

 

To me the cheese portions are fine, but then I worry about gaining weight on long cruises so like the small portions. I have never found it a problem to ask for less of some cheeses and more of another. I love the Epoisses when it is available. As markham said you can always order a double portion if that is what you want. For myself I would hate to be wasting good cheese if they gave me too much.

 

I have sailed on all the small ships and loved them, but there are many things I enjoy more on the bigger ships. Many wonderful crew that have transferred from the small to the big ships is one thing I especially enjoy. Plus lots of new crew who aim to help us enjoy our holiday.

 

I respect your concerns but we all have things we enjoy or don't enjoy on various ships. I can't see Hapag Lloyd suiting us as we like the conviviality of Seabourn and that doesn't seem to be the case on those ships.

 

As for Berlitz I give him little credence. When I was looking at sailing on Crystal I was told by a poster who posts regularly, to follow what Berlitz wrote. What I discovered is that really you need to decide what is important to you and base your decision on that. When we sailed on Crystal things Berlitz said wasn't a big issue turned out to be a big issue for us.

 

That doesn't mean we aren't willing to try new ships as we will sail on Silversea in 2018.

 

Julie

 

This is my opinion and you are welcome to your own. Happy sailing :)

[Chairsin]

Well said Julie.

 

While I respect everyone's right to post a comment and their opinions on CC it gets very old when some posters who I don't believe have even cruised on Seabourn post erroneous information.

 

Again, you still receive the bottle of NF in your suite when you board. When you ask for champagne at any of the bars that is exactly what you will receive. Again the only time I have heard of prosecco is when passed en masse from trays the large welcome reception, club party or Captain's party in the show lounge. And again I will repeat even there I have never had a problem asking for champagne instead.

 

The cheese issue is just plain silly. In 15 years on Seabourn I have not noticed any change in the portions on the cheese plate. And as noted above if you want more order a double portion.

 

To newbies out there let me suggest when you read posts here try not to get alarmed by the posts of someone who seems on a one man crusade to denigrate Seabourn. I was on in June and will be on again in a couple of weeks, Julie was in in July and will be on the new Encore shortly, and a Markham, well it seems he is almost living on Seabourn. So the question is what do you want you believe?

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Forums

[Suite Travels]

Frantic36 you said.

"As for Berlitz I give him little credence. When I was looking at sailing on Crystal I was told by a poster who posts regularly, to follow what Berlitz wrote. What I discovered is that really you need to decide what is important to you and base your decision on that. When we sailed on Crystal things Berlitz said wasn't a big issue turned out to be a big issue for us."

 

I could not agree with you more and I don't read cruise books. We do our research by talking to regular cruisers who frequent a particular line or a TA that knows the line very well. As is often said the only opinion that matters is your own.

 

We have been Crystal cheerleaders for years and still love the line but for us Crystal is getting long in the tooth. We have talked about trying Seabourn for years as the ratings have been very high but for some reason we just could not cut the umbilical cord. We have one more cruise left on Crystal and next Seabourn in 2017 and looking forward to sailing the Encore.

[frantic36]

Frantic36 you said.

"As for Berlitz I give him little credence. When I was looking at sailing on Crystal I was told by a poster who posts regularly, to follow what Berlitz wrote. What I discovered is that really you need to decide what is important to you and base your decision on that. When we sailed on Crystal things Berlitz said wasn't a big issue turned out to be a big issue for us."

 

I could not agree with you more and I don't read cruise books. We do our research by talking to regular cruisers who frequent a particular line or a TA that knows the line very well. As is often said the only opinion that matters is your own.

 

We have been Crystal cheerleaders for years and still love the line but for us Crystal is getting long in the tooth. We have talked about trying Seabourn for years as the ratings have been very high but for some reason we just could not cut the umbilical cord. We have one more cruise left on Crystal and next Seabourn in 2017 and looking forward to sailing the Encore.

 

I can admit there are many good things about Crystal and I know many people who sail them and love the ships. We did meet some wonderful crew there as well.

 

I really hope you enjoy Seabourn. Do things go wrong on Seabourn, well Yes, but I found following up with the staff at Seabourn Square they have made sure I talk to the right person to fix it. Maybe it is because I am a long term client I'm not sure. I think they try to follow through with all their clients as long as they know there is a problem.

 

I am also a bit of a cheerleader for Seabourn so feel free to take everything I say with a big grain of salt. :D

 

Julie

[Suite Travels]

Julie, I appreciate all your comments and others.:)

[Keith1010]

As for Berlitz I give him little credence. When I was looking at sailing on Crystal I was told by a poster who posts regularly, to follow what Berlitz wrote. What I discovered is that really you need to decide what is important to you and base your decision on that. When we sailed on Crystal things Berlitz said wasn't a big issue turned out to be a big issue for us.

 

Julie

 

 

Julie, I think you are referring to me. I felt me ears burn. :eek:

 

When people are considering another cruise line I will usually mention in the end, the only opinion that counts is your own and you just won't know for sure until you sail it yourself.

 

With that said, when someone is doing research on a cruise line they have not sailed or even cruising for the first time my advice is often:

 

Do as much research as you can. Study the deck plans of the ship and read over information from the cruise line in print and soft copy. Try to use a travel agent who has actually sailed on that line or ship. Ask friends who you respect and who know you (the latter is so very important) for advice if they have sailed that line. Read reviews and posts and in my case I go with the 80/20 rule which is that if 80% or more of the people say something is positive or negative I accept that as fact until I experience it myself. I also do recommend having a copy of the book by Douglas Ward. It is updated annually. I pick it up every couple of years. I do think it provides an easy to read writeup on each ship providing key statistics and a nice two page summary to give you a feel of the ship.

 

I don't get too hung up on his ratings (eg., five star versus four star). I do like how he provides his summary rating each ship along six categories. Easy to read, but again I don't get too caught up on the scores.

 

For me, when I was booking that first cruise back in the days that you had to sit with a TA, she was pushing and pushing on one cruise line. While she was on the phone with them (before the days of internet) I saw on her desk a copy of the Douglas Ward book and started to read some of it. I found a writeup on another line that she mentioned nothing about. I asked her about it. She didn't seem to know much. He did give a nice review on that line and not so nice one on the one she was pushing me on and the facts that were presented (just the statistics) for me looked more appealing on the line she was not pushing. So, I asked her to book it. :) I was a relatively newbie at the time having sailed one line at age 12 and one other line with our family for a very short cruise. Looking back on that experience I believe she and her agency were getting higher commissions using that one line she was pushing me on.

 

What I did learn from that experience and did going forward was to do a lot more research and as time went along to use the many tools that I mentioned earlier and have done ever since. I used them when I sailed on Seabourn for the very first time and thankfully from this board the late Martha was a tremendous help to me in addition to all of the research we undertook.

 

But in the end, it all comes down to you. If someone says the room will be an adequate size that means nothing because adequate can mean something different to five different people from too small, to just right, to very large.

 

Same goes for the size of the ship. You know I enjoy Crystal. (I did love our Seabourn cruises too by the way). Sometimes we are in dock and someone points to a ship larger than one of the Crystal ships and says, I can't believe how large that ship is and how would someone sail on it. I think to myself someone on a smaller ship say on Seabourn or Silversea might say how in the world do you sail on that Crystal ship. It's way too big for us.

 

We all do see things from different points of view.

 

I do think that when the opportunity is there it's great to sail on different cruise lines and ships to get that actual experience for yourself.

 

I would never rely on one source to make my decision and know I won't know for sure until I experience it myself.

 

Today when friends ask me for a recommendation for a hotel, restaurant or even a cruise if I recommend something I will say something like this.

 

This (hotel, cruise line, ship, restaurant) worked for me and my wife. While I recommend it, in the end it might not work for you.

 

Why because in the end we are all different. Even if I know the person very well no one knows for sure about what another person will think. Personally, I think it's great that we all have different tastes and preferences on just about everything. Otherwise, there would be very little choice and things might get a bit boring.

 

That's good. Otherwise other than the cost of the cruise if we all liked the same cruise lines/ships that would be boring.

 

So, yes, I do think the Douglas Ward book is a good source of information but to me the key is to use it in conjunction with many sources. :D I know. Some people don't care for it. Again, an example as to how we all have different approaches to research and different opinions on what tools to use.

 

And like each of us he is human. From time to time he makes a mistake and we have to remember that other than the statistics that are provided (and there are a lot which is why I do recommend the book) the ratings and some of the descriptions are his opinion and therefore are subjective. Of course that is true of most posts on CC. Manly option but with some statistics too. :)

 

Keith

Edited December 4, 2016 by Keith1010

[lincslady]

Most cruisers say that you should not judge a line, and whether you would enjoy it, in advance. For me there are just a few hard facts which I feel I can make a personal judgment on. One is size of ship and number of passengers. Anything over about 600 is too many for me. Another is suite size. Anything under about 250 sq. ft. would be too small. Another is dining choice; it has to be genuine open seating dining. I am therefore not going to cruise with any line which does not satisfy these criteria in the future. Obviously others have totally different criteria - thank goodness, or we would all be on the same few lines! Having cruised now with the lines which generally qualify, e.g. Silversea, Seadream and Seabourn, I know which one I prefer.

[frantic36]

Julie, I think you are referring to me. I felt me ears burn. :eek:

 

When people are considering another cruise line I will usually mention in the end, the only opinion that counts is your own and you just won't know for sure until you sail it yourself.

 

With that said, when someone is doing research on a cruise line they have not sailed or even cruising for the first time my advice is often:

 

Do as much research as you can. Study the deck plans of the ship and read over information from the cruise line in print and soft copy. Try to use a travel agent who has actually sailed on that line or ship. Ask friends who you respect and who know you (the latter is so very important) for advice if they have sailed that line. Read reviews and posts and in my case I go with the 80/20 rule which is that if 80% or more of the people say something is positive or negative I accept that as fact until I experience it myself. I also do recommend having a copy of the book by Douglas Ward. It is updated annually. I pick it up every couple of years. I do think it provides an easy to read writeup on each ship providing key statistics and a nice two page summary to give you a feel of the ship.

 

I don't get too hung up on his ratings (eg., five star versus four star). I do like how he provides his summary rating each ship along six categories. Easy to read, but again I don't get too caught up on the scores.

 

For me, when I was booking that first cruise back in the days that you had to sit with a TA, she was pushing and pushing on one cruise line. While she was on the phone with them (before the days of internet) I saw on her desk a copy of the Douglas Ward book and started to read some of it. I found a writeup on another line that she mentioned nothing about. I asked her about it. She didn't seem to know much. He did give a nice review on that line and not so nice one on the one she was pushing me on and the facts that were presented (just the statistics) for me looked more appealing on the line she was not pushing. So, I asked her to book it. :) I was a relatively newbie at the time having sailed one line at age 12 and one other line with our family for a very short cruise. Looking back on that experience I believe she and her agency were getting higher commissions using that one line she was pushing me on.

 

What I did learn from that experience and did going forward was to do a lot more research and as time went along to use the many tools that I mentioned earlier and have done ever since. I used them when I sailed on Seabourn for the very first time and thankfully from this board the late Martha was a tremendous help to me in addition to all of the research we undertook.

 

Keith

 

Keith,

 

I am sorry your ears were burning.

 

I do a lot of research and my experience with Crystal showed that Douglas Ward as good as he might be is a generalist. I check deck plans, trip advisor etc. My friends will tell you big time researching is my thing.........

 

My sailing was affected by full sailings and the trialling of swapping out of shows from twice a night to shows varying between once or twice a night. Douglas Ward and no reviewer can adapt for these alternatives.

 

Because of this when we tried to change dining we heard No fairly frequently. Now I know we were unlucky and I accept that. I recommend to friends they try Crystal outside of likely full sailings. This is because they had good points like their speciality classes especially on sea days.

 

We are lucky to sail as often as we do and we appreciate this. We like to be able to spoil ourselves at times with paying extra for good food and wine. This doesn't mean we have the ability to just cruise to check out a cruise line without carefully weighing the options.

 

Julie

[Chairsin]

The one thing I know for sure is that Julie is an extremely through researcher. Thus I am sure she went into her Crystal cruise with a ton of relevant )to her) information under her belt. The fact is sometimes no matter how much research you do there is nothing like first hand experience. And her case there were unpleasant surprises. Unfortunately in the luxury cruise arena this experience comes at a high cost.

 

So back to Berlitz or Douglas ward or whatever -- all of that info should be considered only in light of your own personal frame of reference. I know when I was first considering Seabourn 15 years ago I only used to the books to determine the lines to consider. From there I narrowed it down by information from friends with a similar outlook who had been on those lines and the "hard facts " about those lines (no reviewers subjective comments). My TA was actually steering us toward then "Sea Goddess" but I felt Seabourn better fit our needs and desires. We have happily been on Seabourn ever since.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Forums

[Suite Travels]

I think most seasoned cruisers know what they are looking for and do plenty of research. I do not rely on critics that have only sailed a line once. The best advice we have been given are from people we know who sail both Crystal and Seabourn regularly and the opinions we have received have been all positive for Seabourn as they know both products well. I think with over a hundred cruises over the years and different lines we know what to look for. We have been looking at Seabourn for several years but my partner did not want to be on a small ship such as the triplets. Now he is excited about Seabourns new class of ships and he thinks sailing Crystal which we have one more is like wearing an old shoe. We want a new shoe and Seabourn fits the new shoe well.

 

I am certain we will not be disappointed.

 

Miles

[Keith1010]

Keith,

 

I am sorry your ears were burning.

 

I do a lot of research and my experience with Crystal showed that Douglas Ward as good as he might be is a generalist. I check deck plans, trip advisor etc. My friends will tell you big time researching is my thing.........

 

My sailing was affected by full sailings and the trialling of swapping out of shows from twice a night to shows varying between once or twice a night. Douglas Ward and no reviewer can adapt for these alternatives.

 

Because of this when we tried to change dining we heard No fairly frequently. Now I know we were unlucky and I accept that. I recommend to friends they try Crystal outside of likely full sailings. This is because they had good points like their speciality classes especially on sea days.

 

We are lucky to sail as often as we do and we appreciate this. We like to be able to spoil ourselves at times with paying extra for good food and wine. This doesn't mean we have the ability to just cruise to check out a cruise line without carefully weighing the options.

 

Julie

 

Hi Julie, I greatly respect you and the research you do.

 

I only posted about this because just wanted to note that the Douglas Ward book is just one of many items I will recommend to others. I would never recommend it as a single source and pretty much always recommend multiple sources to others.

 

I do find that for those who are looking at several lines or as I mentioned earlier fairly new to cruising or those new to a particular category of cruising i do recommend it as one of several sources. I do like his summary and the statistics he provides about each ship. While one could find that statistics that he provides via the internet with a lot of searches I like having it in one place. I have always viewed the statistics provided and portions of the writeup to be like an encyclopedia back when I was in school. It wasn't the end for all but it was a good place to start the research. :)

 

I am sorry that Crystal didn't work for you.

 

I also agree with you about how one sailing can be different than another one such as a full ship versus a ship that is not at capacity.

 

Same for a land based restaurant. There is a restaurant that we love to visit when we travel and have enjoyed wonderful meals there and nice service. However, one time it just didn't work and I think in hindsight it was because we got there later than normal and it was very crowded that night and the wait staff was overwhelmed as was the kitchen. If this was my first time dining there there is a good chance it would be the last.

 

Best to you, Julie.

 

Keith

Edited December 4, 2016 by Keith1010