They cancelled my cruise

[RDC1]

I'm not sure. OP said it was two legs starting with the coastal. The cruise that follows the coastal is the overnighter Vancouver to Seattle. Maybe what he/she called the second leg was the one nighter combined with the following Seattle-Seattle Alaska cruise, which I think is one week. If so, that could be salvaged by using the land connection, too.

 

Until the OP comes back with more information, we're all just guessing.

 

No the OP said that he was starting in SD so the second segment that was canceled was the vancouver to Seattle which would have made his total cruise SD to Seattle, a violation. If it was what you indicated Vancouver to Seattle followed by Seattle to Seattle, the total cruise would have been Vancouver to Seattle perfectly legal.

[JHDub]

We tried to book those two legs yesterday over the phone, and that's when we discovered this jones act we'd never heard off. We'd already booked the Seattle Alaska cruise and we live in San Diego, so when we found out that our ship, eurodam, was coming by home we figured why not jump on here! HAL wouldn't book those two legs at all. We have decided to take the San Diego to Vancouver and then rent a car and drive to Seattle. Alamo car rentals has a location right at the port in Vancouver, and a cruise port shuttle in Seattle- so it's super easy for logistics! Added bonus of the drive and crossing the Canada border - I'm excited for the unexpected adventure, and should only take 3 hours nonstop so plenty of time to explore. (My in laws live in Lynwood so we are crashing at their place for the night. ) At least now we know about this restriction on cruise travel for future reference. ;0)

 

 

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[Storylady]

Same thing happened to us, but we either had TA that knew we could not do San Diego to Seattle and then on to Alaska. Or HAL told the TA we couldn't do it. And we even tried San Diego to Vancouver, take the bus to Seattle and then the cruise to Alaska. We were told we had to have quite a few days between the two cruises because of the PVSA.

 

So we ended up taking San Diego to Vancouver on the Oosterdam in April. And then we took a bus to Seattle, we spent about five days in Seattle and then took the Westerdam to Alaska in May. This was in 2006.

 

 

Wish they would get rid of the Jones Act and the PVSA act. Both are a pain. But I suspect that will never happen in our lifetime.

[bUU]

We tried to book those two legs yesterday over the phone, and that's when we discovered this jones act we'd never heard off. We'd already booked the Seattle Alaska cruise and we live in San Diego, so when we found out that our ship, eurodam, was coming by home we figured why not jump on here! HAL wouldn't book those two legs at all.

Again making me suspicious that it was some travel agent using their superior access to enter the illegal booking.

 

 

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[bUU]

Wish they would get rid of the Jones Act and the PVSA act. Both are a pain. But I suspect that will never happen in our lifetime.

And thank goodness. The Jones Act serves an important role in protecting the jobs of American sailors, and the PVSA ensures that the Jones Act can continue to be effectively enforced.

 

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[bUU]

Interesting question. I'll have to research that when I get a chance. My guess is that the two bookings probably have to have different disembarkation (from the first itinerary) and embarkation (to the second itinerary) dates.

Okay I think this may be in error. The act actually focuses on the voyage of the vessel, and what constitutes a continuous coast-wise voyage, again, of the vessel. The word voyage is used throughout 19 CFR 4 seemingly in that context; in the same chapter, the word is used in the context of transportation of merchandise, and therefore in the context of a ship possibly taking on some of its cargo and putting off some of its cargo at a series of ports. (It is important to remember that the Jones Act and the PVSA aren't each independent laws - they were simply acts of Congress to update 19 CFR 4, and that 19 CFR 4 is actually the law.)

 

If I am now reading that right, that would mean that what the passenger does to try to "interrupt" the voyage isn't going to make a difference, and that whenever a passenger leaves the ship at an American port, that passenger cannot have boarded the ship for the first time at some other American port since the ship itself had last visited a distant foreign port.

 

In turn, that would mean that all passengers boarding the ship in San Diego must disembark at Vancouver (or stay on the ship until after repositioning, or leave the ship at a Canadian port, if that itinerary includes a Canadian port call), and that even after that, perhaps even weeks later (since the ship is still on its voyage and hasn't visited a distant foreign port as it cruises between Seattle and Alaska) legitimately cannot reboard that vessel, except to later disembark at a foreign port, until the vessel itself visits a distant foreign port.

 

This interpretation would also mean that if a ship was doing Seattle round trips to Alaska and then mid-season switched to San Francisco round trips (never having visited a distant foreign port), that no passenger could do one of the Seattle round trips and then later do a San Francisco round trip. By the same token, that may be why Princess (for example) doesn't have the Grand Princess switch like that mid-season. Furthermore, I cannot think of any situations where any cruise ships switch itineraries like that without visiting a distant foreign port, so that lends some more credence to this interpretation.

Edited April 6, 2017 by bUU

[DeeniEncinitas]

buu,

Thankyou for your detailed research!!

I appreciate the time to explain!

I live in San Diego and this will be one cruise I will avoid. Been to Alaska a lot and

Enjoy our HAl but I personally would not do this cruise!

Denise :)

[tjhorrall]

I really appreciate all of the replies. And I must say I was aware of all the different travel options from Vancouver to Seattle. However the point is, Holland let us book this cruise through a travel agent. If this was a violation of the law why did they even let us book it? We were scheduled to disembark in Vancouver and get on a different ship. I even contacted Holland and asked how we do this and responded telling me to disembark with our luggage, go through customs and them board the other ship. Our travel agent also spoke to them and was told the same thing, and no mention of this not being an option. They at no time said we could not do this. We specifically plan vacations to have the least amount of fuss. Arriving in Vancouver and renting a car, taking a bus or a ferry or flying to Seattle was not what we wanted and not what we planned. I am still waiting for the complete refund, they have not refunded everything we paid. If I had decided to change this trip then I would be fine losing my money but since Holland changed the trip at very short notice I feel they need to give me all my money back. We will see. I am not suggesting anyone else avoid Holland, I just put the information out for others to be aware.

 

We previously tried to book a cruise on Princess which was basically the same cruise. They told us we could not book the second part from Vancouver to Seattle because it was on the same ship and if we changed ships then we would be okay.

 

Everyone has thier own travel expectations. Mine now includes limiting the frustration of getting from point A to Point B. Having to haul luggage and find rental cars or trains or Ferries is more than I want to do. This is why when ever we book a cruise we always pay for the airport transportation on both ends. I know we could do some of these things cheaper but the savings is not worth the hassle.

 

I am sure Holland is great cruise line however this experience is enough to make me not want to give them my money in the future.

[Cruise Junky]

So if you already tried it on Princess and were told it was illegal, why would you try it on HAL and expect a different outcome?

[sail7seas]

We tried to book those two legs yesterday over the phone, and that's when we discovered this jones act we'd never heard off. We'd already booked the Seattle Alaska cruise and we live in San Diego, so when we found out that our ship, eurodam, was coming by home we figured why not jump on here! HAL wouldn't book those two legs at all. We have decided to take the San Diego to Vancouver and then rent a car and drive to Seattle. Alamo car rentals has a location right at the port in Vancouver, and a cruise port shuttle in Seattle- so it's super easy for logistics! Added bonus of the drive and crossing the Canada border - I'm excited for the unexpected adventure, and should only take 3 hours nonstop so plenty of time to explore. (My in laws live in Lynwood so we are crashing at their place for the night. ) At least now we know about this restriction on cruise travel for future reference. ;0)

 

 

 

 

 

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Jones Act pertains to frieght.. PVSA deals with passengers. People often mix up the two. :)

[JHDub]

Ah ha! Thanks! This explains why googling "Jones act how many days between cruises" didn't amount that's in my research LOL.

 

 

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[mor mor]

The OP is right that HAL should never had let the original bookings go through. But the software probably does not catch everything. When it finally caught the mistake, HAL asked them to cancel the one-night cruise from Vancouver to Seattle. There are plenty of other ways to get from Vancouver to Seattle, but apparently the OP was not satisfied and asked HAL to cancel both cruises.

We just went through this in a booking for next fall. Rather than cancel everything just use the train or bus between Seattle and Vancouver. Of course it's annoying but the alternative is worse.

[3rdGenCunarder]

I really appreciate all of the replies. And I must say I was aware of all the different travel options from Vancouver to Seattle. However the point is, Holland let us book this cruise through a travel agent. If this was a violation of the law why did they even let us book it? We were scheduled to disembark in Vancouver and get on a different ship. I even contacted Holland and asked how we do this and responded telling me to disembark with our luggage, go through customs and them board the other ship. Our travel agent also spoke to them and was told the same thing, and no mention of this not being an option. They at no time said we could not do this. We specifically plan vacations to have the least amount of fuss. Arriving in Vancouver and renting a car, taking a bus or a ferry or flying to Seattle was not what we wanted and not what we planned. I am still waiting for the complete refund, they have not refunded everything we paid. If I had decided to change this trip then I would be fine losing my money but since Holland changed the trip at very short notice I feel they need to give me all my money back. We will see. I am not suggesting anyone else avoid Holland, I just put the information out for others to be aware.

 

We previously tried to book a cruise on Princess which was basically the same cruise. They told us we could not book the second part from Vancouver to Seattle because it was on the same ship and if we changed ships then we would be okay.

 

Everyone has thier own travel expectations. Mine now includes limiting the frustration of getting from point A to Point B. Having to haul luggage and find rental cars or trains or Ferries is more than I want to do. This is why when ever we book a cruise we always pay for the airport transportation on both ends. I know we could do some of these things cheaper but the savings is not worth the hassle.

 

I am sure Holland is great cruise line however this experience is enough to make me not want to give them my money in the future.

 

I'm still not clear about the second leg of your cruise. Was it the one-night Vancouver to Seattle, or the combination of the one-nighter and the Seattle-Seattle Alaska cruise that followed it?

[knittinggirl]

I wanted to do Boston to Montreal to Fort Lauderdale and the HAL consultant wouldn't let me, due to the PSVA. I wonder if we'd done Boston, Montreal, FLL, then a southern Caribbean to include one of the ABC islands, if they would have allowed it.

 

We did Quebec to FLL then Southern Caribbean (Closed loop FLL)..

[Bostonjetset]

I really appreciate all of the replies. And I must say I was aware of all the different travel options from Vancouver to Seattle. However the point is, Holland let us book this cruise through a travel agent. If this was a violation of the law why did they even let us book it? We were scheduled to disembark in Vancouver and get on a different ship. I even contacted Holland and asked how we do this and responded telling me to disembark with our luggage, go through customs and them board the other ship. Our travel agent also spoke to them and was told the same thing, and no mention of this not being an option. They at no time said we could not do this. We specifically plan vacations to have the least amount of fuss. Arriving in Vancouver and renting a car, taking a bus or a ferry or flying to Seattle was not what we wanted and not what we planned. I am still waiting for the complete refund, they have not refunded everything we paid. If I had decided to change this trip then I would be fine losing my money but since Holland changed the trip at very short notice I feel they need to give me all my money back. We will see. I am not suggesting anyone else avoid Holland, I just put the information out for others to be aware.

 

We previously tried to book a cruise on Princess which was basically the same cruise. They told us we could not book the second part from Vancouver to Seattle because it was on the same ship and if we changed ships then we would be okay.

 

Everyone has thier own travel expectations. Mine now includes limiting the frustration of getting from point A to Point B. Having to haul luggage and find rental cars or trains or Ferries is more than I want to do. This is why when ever we book a cruise we always pay for the airport transportation on both ends. I know we could do some of these things cheaper but the savings is not worth the hassle.

 

I am sure Holland is great cruise line however this experience is enough to make me not want to give them my money in the future.

I can understand the frustration of having plans altered and I certainly sympathize with that. However, when you state that limiting the frustration is important to you but yet cancel a whole trip including flights and vacation time at work rather than readjusting ONE DAY of traveling from Seattle to Vancouver it makes me wonder if there is more to this story.

[bUU]

I wanted to do Boston to Montreal to Fort Lauderdale and the HAL consultant wouldn't let me, due to the PSVA. I wonder if we'd done Boston, Montreal, FLL, then a southern Caribbean to include one of the ABC islands, if they would have allowed it.

If any of the ships reposition from Canadian coastal to Southern Caribbean disembarking at San Juan PR, then I think it is permitted. Even though PR is USA, there's an exclusion for it in the PVSA.

[styles27]

So if you already tried it on Princess and were told it was illegal, why would you try it on HAL and expect a different outcome?

 

 

Princess told her if it were on a different ship he/she could do it with them and since this was two different ships he/she assumed it was ok.

 

I thought it was the same ship too.

 

If it's on a different ship why would it matter?

 

Isn't that 2 different cruises? Or is it because they're within 24hrs of each other?

[Linaeve]

I'm still curious was this an actually HAL travel agent? or a separate agency?

[alwaysfrantic]

And thank goodness. The Jones Act serves an important role in protecting the jobs of American sailors, and the PVSA ensures that the Jones Act can continue to be effectively enforced.

 

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How does it protect American jobs?

[Boytjie]

I wanted to do Boston to Montreal to Fort Lauderdale and the HAL consultant wouldn't let me, due to the PSVA. I wonder if we'd done Boston, Montreal, FLL, then a southern Caribbean to include one of the ABC islands, if they would have allowed it.

 

We did Quebec to FLL then Southern Caribbean (Closed loop FLL)..

 

The ABC islands are considered distant foreign ports so it would be OK.

[RDC1]

How does it protect American jobs?

 

Because it applies to a wide range of US shipping, for example ferries. If you remove the law then you open the door to basically all US ship activities to be replaced by foreign companies, using foreign built ships, and in some case foreign crews.

 

What cruise lines do are outside of the law and as such they use non-US built ships, with non-US crews, not subject to US labor laws.

[bUU]

If it's on a different ship why would it matter?

Indeed. It raises two issues in my mind: First, my second interpretation of the law, above, is wrong, and instead my first interpretation is correct, i.e., that the voyage that the law talks about is the passenger's voyage not the ship's voyage. Second, something I deliberately dismissed while I was doing my research makes the law even more insidious. If you dig deeper into the mechanics of 19 CFR 4 it makes clear that, for cargo, at least, you cannot avoid the ramifications of the law by way of taking cargo loaded at a US port, depositing it at a (near) foreign port, and then picking it up with another ship and delivering it to a different US port (unless the cargo was processed into another product at the near foreign port). It sounds like this dynamic also applies to passengers, though I don't see the words to support that in the law itself. Now I wonder whether you can get around the law by having difference companies handle the two legs of that journey, and if that translates to passengers, then does that mean that Holland America could take a passenger on one leg and Princess on the other, or would that also be prohibited because they have the same owner. Heh. What a mess.

[RuthC]

The ABC islands are considered distant foreign ports so it would be OK.

Exactly what I was going to post---Peter just got there first.

So long as your ship stops at a distant foreign port, then you can sail from one US port and disembark in another US port, and be fine under the PVSA. The ABC islands are considered South America, and therefore "distant".

[knittinggirl]

Princess told her if it were on a different ship he/she could do it with them and since this was two different ships he/she assumed it was ok.

 

I thought it was the same ship too.

 

If it's on a different ship why would it matter?

 

Isn't that 2 different cruises? Or is it because they're within 24hrs of each other?

We did Hawaii then Alaska (both closed loop) with a hotel day between, and they permitted it. Basically, if I could have done the Boston to FLL I would have been happy to pay the penalty.

 

But adding a Boston before our cruise and the Southern Caribbean after would have made it too expensive.

[sail7seas]

And thank goodness. The Jones Act serves an important role in protecting the jobs of American sailors, and the PVSA ensures that the Jones Act can continue to be effectively enforced.

 

This message may have been entered using voice recognition. Please excuse any typos.

 

 

Keep in mind PVSA and Jones Act apply to air travel as well.

 

A foreign air carrier can take someone form Boston gto nY only if they are connecting tto international flight. Air France, cannot board passengers in Boston, take them to NYC and de plane them They c annot go only from one U.S. city to U.S.. city