UK members, Radio 2

[antsp]

Jeremy Vine on Radio 2 is discussing Princess Cruises fine of $40,000,000

[*Fudge*]

I've been listening to it. It's disgraceful what they have been doing. I think most cruisers will be disgusted by it. 40 million is not nearly enough IMO. I hope any other cruise lines that are dumping into the sea stop right now.

[Esprit]

It's a pity Mr David Dingle wasn't asked to respond. It would have given the topic more balance instead of sensationalisation which Mr Vine likes to bring to his radio show.

[floridalover5623]

I've been listening to it. It's disgraceful what they have been doing. I think most cruisers will be disgusted by it. 40 million is not nearly enough IMO. I hope any other cruise lines that are dumping into the sea stop right now.

Maybe it's not sufficient but it's still large enough to not want to get caught again.

[antsp]

I feel this may seriously affect sales in the UK market

[*Fudge*]

I'll still cruise. Hopefully it was just that one cruise line and if any others are doing it they'll stop.

[majortom10]

It will not make any difference because they were caught dumping "contaminated bilge water " from Caribbean Princess through a "magic pipe" in waters around the British Isles in 2013 and was believed to be happening from other Princess ships around the world . For some reason the fine has only recently been announced which is $40million and pardon the pun "a drop in the ocean" for Carnival profits.

[floridalover5623]

I feel this may seriously affect sales in the UK market

For a while then it'll return to business as usual. People forget things real fast. ;)

[janny444]

I too listened to the report...I was totally shocked. I do not think for one moment that it is only this one cruise line but they are the only ones "caught in the act"....at the moment.

One comment was that it will affect our food chain through the marine life and it doesn't take much imagination to realise that .... they should be held to account and $40,000,000 doesn't go far enough

Another comment was about a crew member that if he was caught "flicking" a cigarette butt into the sea he would be sacked but the higher powers can dump tons and tons of filth into the sea so likewise heads should roll even if it is the top brass. Do you think that is going to happen...no ....certainly double standards.

 

I am absolutely sickened by the report and I don't think Jeremy Vine was being sensational....he was reporting what the conscientious engineer had seen and how he had felt so strongly about what he had witnessed that he had to blow the whistle on this disgraceful practice.

 

Has it put me off cruising...yes it has ..I feel I don't wish to support an industry that blatantly and callously flouts the law and has total disregard for the fragility of this planet.

[Thrak]

 

Has it put me off cruising...yes it has ..I feel I don't wish to support an industry that blatantly and callously flouts the law and has total disregard for the fragility of this planet.

 

I guess you had better stop driving, eating, wearing clothing, using anything made of metal or plastic, etc. then as pretty much every industry is helping to trash the planet and breaking the law whenever they think they can get away with it.

 

Yes, I think it was a disgusting thing. However, I also believe what I said above. I do know of one major company that is totally green. It recycles everything including the water used to wash the trucks. It creates more electricity than it uses. It has been the recipient of awards and honors for environmentally sound practices and is a leader in that area. That company? Sierra Nevada Brewery. :D

[floridalover5623]

I

Has it put me off cruising...yes it has ..I feel I don't wish to support an industry that blatantly and callously flouts the law and has total disregard for the fragility of this planet.

I was thinking the same thing as Thrak. There's not much you can do independently that will fix what almost every industry has done to the environment. I choose to support cruise lines even if they have caused a few problems along the way.

I guess you'll be biking to your next vacation location.

[jackieo]

I feel this may seriously affect sales in the UK market

 

 

I don't think so, they are offering 3rd/4th person in cabins for £99 on summer sailings out of southampton. I also noticed the share price didn't take a dip.

 

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Forums

[Colo Cruiser]

I don't think so, they are offering 3rd/4th person in cabins for £99 on summer sailings out of southampton. I also noticed the share price didn't take a dip.

 

 

I am afraid you are probably correct.

[antsp]

I am afraid you are probably correct.

I guess it is then, why offer a cruise for £99 otherwise, fine by us my dd 14 night transatlantic cost £25

[Colo Cruiser]

I guess it is then, why offer a cruise for £99 otherwise, fine by us my dd 14 night transatlantic cost £25

 

So know in light of this old/new information you will cancel all your upcoming cruises with Princess and/or Carnival Corporation.

[magandy]

This is old news from the 1st December 2016.

https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/princess-cruise-lines-pay-largest-ever-criminal-penalty-deliberate-vessel-pollution

 

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/dec/02/the-40m-magic-pipe-princess-cruises-given-record-fine-for-dumping-oil-at-sea

 

Sent from my iPad using Forums mobile app

Edited April 25, 2017 by magandy

[antsp]

So know in light of this old/new information you will cancel all your upcoming cruises with Princess and/or Carnival Corporation.

No, but prices in the UK are cheaper than ever so suits me, a lot cheaper than the US

[Colo Cruiser]

No, but prices in the UK are cheaper than ever so suits me, a lot cheaper than the US

 

So price overrides disgust?

[antsp]

So price overrides disgust?

Follow the money

[chengkp75]

At the risk of repeating myself from the threads last year concerning this incident, let me give you a professional mariner's perspective. Do I deplore what was done? Yes. Did the Chief Engineer act in a criminal manner? Yes. Did at least some corporate officers create an atmosphere where acting illegally was the choice between keeping and losing a job? Yes. Have I ever in 42 years, or would I ever even consider doing something like this? No.

 

But let's put this all in perspective. Do we know how much oil was pumped to the sea with the oily bilge water? No. Does the USCG, the US DOJ, or anyone else for that matter know how much? No.

 

Why is this important? Because every day, in every ocean, ships of all kinds are legally allowed to pump oil into the sea. How is this? Because the IMO, and all nations signatory to the MARPOL (maritime pollution) convention, realize that you can't stop it all, so the oil water separators allowed on ships have an oil content meter on them to measure the amount of oil in the water as it is pumped overboard. If the content is less than 15ppm (about 1 teaspoon in 87 gallons), the water is acceptable to go overboard. At 15ppm or above, the water returns to the tank for additional filtration. So, a little bit of oil can go overboard with every gallon of water, legally.

 

Now, in the case of using a "magic pipe" to bypass the oil content meter, there is no measurement of how much oil is in the water. Is it 16ppm (1 teaspoon in every 81 gallons) or 10,000ppm (1 teaspoon in every pint)? Both are illegal, but one is far more egregious than the other, but we will never know which was the case in this instance.

 

Also, one of the major violations occurred when a gray water (sink and shower drains) tank overflowed to the engine room bilges. While cruise ships for the most part treat gray water before pumping it overboard to nearly pure drinking water quality, most ships around the world are legally allowed to drain gray water directly overboard, no treatment. However, the instant the gray water touched the engine room bilges, it no longer was gray water, it was now bilge water, and had to be processed as bilge water. Was there oil in this water now, because there wasn't any when it was gray water, and given the usual spotless nature of cruise ship bilges, I doubt there was any oil in it when it suddenly became bilge water. The process of separating oil from water is difficult and time consuming, and most ships have a system that can process something like 5 tons/hour. Compare this to either sending gray water directly overboard, or processing it through the waste water treatment plant, with a capacity of 40-50 tons/hour. The Chief decided to pump the water back to the gray water tank, and continue to treat it as gray water. Was this wrong? Yes. Was this illegal? Yes. Did this cause pollution? Again, we will never know how much, if any, oil was in the gray water, so the question will go unanswered.

 

If these had been blatant, oily discharges they would have been discovered at the time they happened, or soon after, as the SeaSat environmental/weather satellites, among many other things look for and can find oil plumes from ships. However, the Princess violations were found by a whistleblower after many years, so this was most likely a case of low level contamination, perhaps as little as 1-2ppm above the allowable. Maybe it was more concentrated than that, but we don't have the facts to judge that.

 

Again, illegal act, yes. Massive harm to the environment, maybe, maybe not, no one can really say, even the maritime experts.

[Colo Cruiser]

As always thanks Chief.

[majortom10]

At the risk of repeating myself from the threads last year concerning this incident, let me give you a professional mariner's perspective. Do I deplore what was done? Yes. Did the Chief Engineer act in a criminal manner? Yes. Did at least some corporate officers create an atmosphere where acting illegally was the choice between keeping and losing a job? Yes. Have I ever in 42 years, or would I ever even consider doing something like this? No.

 

But let's put this all in perspective. Do we know how much oil was pumped to the sea with the oily bilge water? No. Does the USCG, the US DOJ, or anyone else for that matter know how much? No.

 

Why is this important? Because every day, in every ocean, ships of all kinds are legally allowed to pump oil into the sea. How is this? Because the IMO, and all nations signatory to the MARPOL (maritime pollution) convention, realize that you can't stop it all, so the oil water separators allowed on ships have an oil content meter on them to measure the amount of oil in the water as it is pumped overboard. If the content is less than 15ppm (about 1 teaspoon in 87 gallons), the water is acceptable to go overboard. At 15ppm or above, the water returns to the tank for additional filtration. So, a little bit of oil can go overboard with every gallon of water, legally.

 

Now, in the case of using a "magic pipe" to bypass the oil content meter, there is no measurement of how much oil is in the water. Is it 16ppm (1 teaspoon in every 81 gallons) or 10,000ppm (1 teaspoon in every pint)? Both are illegal, but one is far more egregious than the other, but we will never know which was the case in this instance.

 

Also, one of the major violations occurred when a gray water (sink and shower drains) tank overflowed to the engine room bilges. While cruise ships for the most part treat gray water before pumping it overboard to nearly pure drinking water quality, most ships around the world are legally allowed to drain gray water directly overboard, no treatment. However, the instant the gray water touched the engine room bilges, it no longer was gray water, it was now bilge water, and had to be processed as bilge water. Was there oil in this water now, because there wasn't any when it was gray water, and given the usual spotless nature of cruise ship bilges, I doubt there was any oil in it when it suddenly became bilge water. The process of separating oil from water is difficult and time consuming, and most ships have a system that can process something like 5 tons/hour. Compare this to either sending gray water directly overboard, or processing it through the waste water treatment plant, with a capacity of 40-50 tons/hour. The Chief decided to pump the water back to the gray water tank, and continue to treat it as gray water. Was this wrong? Yes. Was this illegal? Yes. Did this cause pollution? Again, we will never know how much, if any, oil was in the gray water, so the question will go unanswered.

 

If these had been blatant, oily discharges they would have been discovered at the time they happened, or soon after, as the SeaSat environmental/weather satellites, among many other things look for and can find oil plumes from ships. However, the Princess violations were found by a whistleblower after many years, so this was most likely a case of low level contamination, perhaps as little as 1-2ppm above the allowable. Maybe it was more concentrated than that, but we don't have the facts to judge that.

 

Again, illegal act, yes. Massive harm to the environment, maybe, maybe not, no one can really say, even the maritime experts.

 

yes we do "A single illegal discharge dumped 4,227 gallons of oil-contaminated waste about 20 miles off the coast of England on 26 August 2013, according to court documents".

[Host Hattie]

That was the volume of the discharge, not the amount of oil.

[chengkp75]

yes we do "A single illegal discharge dumped 4,227 gallons of oil-contaminated waste about 20 miles off the coast of England on 26 August 2013, according to court documents".

 

But what I am saying isthat the ship could have pumped 4,227 gallons of water with 15ppm of oil in it, legally, but 4,227 gallons ofwater with 16ppm of oil is illegal. Pumping water overboard is notillegal, it is the oil in the water that is illegal, and polluting. Thatstatement makes no differentiation between 4,227 gallons of water with 52teaspoons of oil in it (legal), or 4,227 gallons that was half oil and half water. To further muddy things, since discharging any oily water overboardwithout going through an oil content meter is illegal, that 4,227 gallons couldhave been clean water, but since the oil content was not measured, it is, legally, oil-contaminated water, and the discharge is illegal even though itnever had any oil in it. Was someone there to measure the oil content ofthe water before it went overboard? No. Did the authorities collecta sample from the sea near the ship? No. You can't say, I can'tsay, nor can the USCG, the EPA, or the UK MCA say what the oil content of thatwater was, whether it was above or below the legal maximum content, or even ifit had any oil at all in it. With good bilge management practices, Iroutinely process bilge water to a 0-1ppm oil content, but anything that isclassed as bilge water, or has touched the bilge system is considered, legally,to be oil-contaminated water if not processed through an oil content meter.

[janny444]

I guess you had better stop driving, eating, wearing clothing, using anything made of metal or plastic, etc. then as pretty much every industry is helping to trash the planet and breaking the law whenever they think they can get away with it.

 

Yes, I think it was a disgusting thing. However, I also believe what I said above. I do know of one major company that is totally green. It recycles everything including the water used to wash the trucks. It creates more electricity than it uses. It has been the recipient of awards and honors for environmentally sound practices and is a leader in that area. That company? Sierra Nevada Brewery. :D

 

I am quite aware of our "footprints" and as far as possible try to keep them to minimum in the best way I can. We own a car but only drive 3000 miles annually....we keep it well maintained so as not to be forever changing it ...we try to use public transport as much as possible...not environmentally ideal but maybe helpful....we try to eat locally produced food...we recycle metal and plastic .. ..clothes....not forever keeping up with the latest fashion fads then when they need replacing they either go to a charity shop...if suitable if not then a "rag" shop or use them ourselves for cleaning/polishing rags...no need for any pollutant aerosol sprays....a little olive oil used with a rag puts an excellent shine on furniture as does newspaper for polishing windows

 

I am well aware that my puny efforts are like trying to hold back a gale force wind with a feather but it is what I am comfortable with.... so when I am made aware of something that doesn't "sit" with me then I have the right to decide when it is not for me to continue doing any more.