What's up with "penny pinching" travels?

[bUU]

The same mechanism applies, despite the attempts to deny it. I'm sorry we've been unable to help you come to understand that, and that as a result you'll remain puzzled by why things are changing the way they're changing.

 

Incidentally, you'll see the same mechanism at play in hotels. Wyndham has 18 different brands. Why are the towels at Baymont now 30% smaller than they were a few years ago? Why did Days Inn switch from bar soap to some mysterious viscous liquid that comes from a dispenser on the wall? Why did Disney follow suit at their $120/night "economy" hotels some years later? And more importantly, why did Disney follow suit at their $250/night "moderate" hotels some years after that?

[mnocket]

I don't entirely disagree with you there.

We all know that standards and price-inclusions in cruising have gradually gone down in the past decade and more, in part due to it becoming a mass-market business and in part due to the great god "Headline Price"

It's less-noticeable on UK ships, perhaps because we Brits rail against add-ons, but even here it's more like a production line than it used to be and silly little extras like choc-on-pillow have gone missing.

 

But there's an important factor you may have overlooked............

 

Whether for business or for vacation, folk fly because they have to - few fly because they want to.

We fly because we want medium/long-haul vacations, not because we want to fly. We rarely enjoy the experience either at airports or on long flights.

But we put up with airport zoos, and we put up with coach-class, because it's merely transportation to our destination, it's only a matter of a few hours, and we rate the extra cost to fly even business class as poor value and it would jack up our vacation cost by a big percentage. So we tough it out on the first and last day.

 

But we cruise because we want to. We wouldn't put up with coach-class service and discomfort on a cruise ship. Because we're the ship's captive audience we wouldn't even put up with a third-rate motel experience, which at least we can treat as just a bed and a bathroom and head out to competing bars, restaurants & entertainment.

 

And I think pretty-well everyone takes the same view - the cruise is the vacation, the flight isn't.

Cruise lines aren't stupid, they know they have to provide an enjoyable experience, much the same as inclusive resorts.

So no, I don't see cruise standards dropping to anywhere near the level of airline coach travel.

Or should that read "I hope ................" ;)

 

JB :)

 

I hope you're right, but here again there is a parallel between business air travel and what is happening to cruise travel. About 12% of air travel is for business, but it is estimated to make up to 75% of airline profits. Why? They pay higher prices (don't book in advance) and tend to travel in upgraded seats. As a business, airlines know who to cater to, and it's not us poor souls sitting in couch on vacation (even though we are the majority). I've read that cruise lines don't make their money on the cruise fare (except maybe for suites) - they make their money on on-board spending and tours. Hence they have little incentive to improve the "included experience" and as we are seeing they are cutting it back. People who restrict themselves to the included services are simply not very profitable.

 

Another consideration is that there are people who would put up with "coach class service" on cruises. A significant portion of cruisers dislike sea days and view the ship as essentially a floating hotel. What they care about is the ports - the more the better. On a land vacation they would not stay at a pricey resort. They don't see the value in it. People are different. They undoubtedly have a very different take on the changes that are happening in the cruise industry. For example if a cruise line decided to do away with the MDR and offer only the buffet as standard food service, I suspect many people would go along if the price was right. I have no doubt that if cruise lines thought they could make a profit off these "included experience only" cruisers by doing so, they would. Are you so sure that not too far down the road cruise lines will include buffet in the fare and then offer a classic dinning package (MDR access) and a premium dinning package (MDR & specialty restaurants)? This would certainly be a step towards Coach, Business and First Class air service. I'm not saying this is certain to happen, but the recent trend is certainly in this direction.

[bUU]

This would certainly be a step towards Coach, Business and First Class air service. I'm not saying this is certain to happen, but the recent trend is certainly in this direction.

Things don't have to manifest in exactly the same way in response to the same mechanisms. I think rather than different classes on the same vessel, like airlines, we already see that class stratification in the cruise industry with different cruise lines for different segments. Going back to my question about why Wyndham needs 18 different brands... why does Carnival need four brands based in the United States? So instead of coach, business class and first class, we get from CCL Carnival, Holland America and Princess, and Seabourn. (Don't get me started on the Holland America and Princess thing - it truly makes no sense to have two brands of the same company competing against each other.)

[DirtyDawg]

So who is more profitable for the cruise line? An inside cruiser who gambles heavily, buys and drinks copious quantities of booze, buys art at the actions (Don't you have to be drunk to buy that crap:halo:), buys photo packages to record the events, and get a massage each day at the Spa to help with the hangover, or the tea toddling, buy nothing on-board balcony cruiser?

[Velvetwater]

I don't think its about how much money you spend when you travel, its whats important to you when you travel. Some people are foodie travellers and thats where there money goes so being in a less fancy hotel is great for them...then you might get the luxury lovers who book a 5 star hotel but will buy cheap food to sustain them as its not their thing. We are happy with an oceanview as spend little time in our cabin and use the money saved to have fun in port.

 

Its also a matter of taste/preference..for example we don't book a lot excursions because most of them are tours/sheep herding exercises. I would rather organise my own transport and do my own research and enjoy the sights of the world at my leisure than pay a hefty price to be escorted around in a group. I will happily shell out for experiences though such as climbing a volcano/a cookery lesson.

 

The main reason to penny pinch when you travel is so you can travel more. Why spend 2k visiting 1 country in week when you can spend 2K visiting 4 over 2 weeks?

[paul929207]

I figure that I can find something every passenger is doing or not doing that I think is a waste. People go to shows I don't like. They buy photos I don't want. They go to movies they can see at home. Etc. Etc Etc.

 

Furthermore, I am sure every passenger can find something I do that they think is a waste.

 

But, who cares. We each go on a cruise for our own reason. It doesn't have to be a good reason, but it is mine.

[Tatka]

We don't have to save pennies to go on our 3-4-5 cruises a year, but we don't feel like spending a lot during cruises. We buy excursions if we are really interested in them, we stay in inside cabins and we only stay in hotels precruise if it is a long drive, so we are fresh next day. It is personal preference, not sure if it makes sense to debate other people tastes

[SantaFeFan]

So who is more profitable for the cruise line? An inside cruiser who gambles heavily, buys and drinks copious quantities of booze, buys art at the actions (Don't you have to be drunk to buy that crap:halo:), buys photo packages to record the events, and get a massage each day at the Spa to help with the hangover, or the tea toddling, buy nothing on-board balcony cruiser?

 

Using your imaginary passengers, the inside passenger would be more profitable in your imaginary scenario. But, based on reading CC for years, I am of the belief that it is the inside cabin cruiser who is more apt to spend less on a cruise than a balcony cruiser. I have no scientific data to back up my belief, just an observation of many posts from people describing their choice to not spend more than necessary, along with their preference for an inside cabin. There seems to be an inclination that being frugal typically extends to the entire cruise, and not just to their room choice. And there is nothing wrong with that at all if they are satisfied with the end result.

[Tatka]

Using your imaginary passengers, the inside passenger would be more profitable in your imaginary scenario. But, based on reading CC for years, I am of the belief that it is the inside cabin cruiser who is more apt to spend less on a cruise than a balcony cruiser. I have no scientific data to back up my belief, just an observation of many posts from people describing their choice to not spend more than necessary, along with their preference for an inside cabin. There seems to be an inclination that being frugal typically extends to the entire cruise, and not just to their room choice. And there is nothing wrong with that at all if they are satisfied with the end result.

Depends on itin. For example on European cruises at some point we spent more on excursions than cruise fare while staying in insides. On Caribbean cruises we spend almost nothing even though often we stay in balconies. Most of excursions just don't make sense to us even though we have enough resources to pay for them.

[Kevin7kodak7]

Im late to cruising. Wish we started earlier. Never though I would enjoy it as much as I do. 1st cruise was my wife winning a large jackpot at Mohegan Sun. Insisted on a booking a cruise. Found one on expedia for 650 inside room CCL out of NYC. 8 days to Bahamas. Great as I can only take off one week at a time. One hour train ride to GCS and 15 minute taxi right to the ship. Got out and porters took the luggage and right in to the ship. Had a great time. I was hooked. MDR for the 8 days, food was very good and service was great. Spent 500.00 total for the extras. Lol, 6 months later got a email from CCL about the same cruise and almost same room for 299.99. Lol, can't book a hotel room for 8 days as cheep. Was in 6 weeks so off we went. Had even a better time as knew what to do and see. Tried RCCL to Bermuda 5 day with balcony 1st week of April. Enjoyed that also. Now spoiled with a balcony, only did one more inside room to Canada. Would rather go 2x a year on a economic cruise than splurge with a penthouse room and only do one. Usually find the best deals off weeks. Plus try to book when school is in. Don't mind some children but don't want 30 percent during the summer. Never would tell someone who booked the same cruise and spent 3x what we do that it was crazy. So if someone wants to do it on the cheep, fine for them. Meet some cruisers who never eat at the MDR, only the specialty ones. Tho have to laugh when in told they only do the buffet due to not wanting to get dressed up or afraid they won't get get enough food in the MDR.

 

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[John Bull]

 

Another consideration is that there are people who would put up with "coach class service" on cruises. A significant portion of cruisers dislike sea days and view the ship as essentially a floating hotel. What they care about is the ports - the more the better. For example if a cruise line decided to do away with the MDR and offer only the buffet as standard food service, I suspect many people would go along if the price was right. I have no doubt that if cruise lines thought they could make a profit off these "included experience only" cruisers by doing so, they would. Are you so sure that not too far down the road cruise lines will include buffet in the fare and then offer a classic dinning package (MDR access) and a premium dinning package (MDR & specialty restaurants)? This would certainly be a step towards Coach, Business and First Class air service. I'm not saying this is certain to happen, but the recent trend is certainly in this direction.

 

You've fairly-closely described me and mine :)

Yes we travel for the ports, yes for us the ship is a floating hotel & not a resort.

But, as per my post and even with the destinations as our priority, there's a minimum standard we'd expect on a ship. And that minimum is waaaaaaay higher than the standards we'll put up with on flights.

 

Twice we've sailed on a P&O subsidiary "Ocean Village", slogan "cruises for people who don't do cruises".

It offered no restaurants other than a premium-pay. The included meals were buffets (very very good buffets) and deck BBQs (fun BBQs). Different, rather than cheap-skating, and well up to standard in other respects.

But the concept wasn't popular enough - perhaps they didn't persevere long enough - and the ships were re-configured to usual dining arrangements & sent to P&O Australia. To the land of the laid-back BBQ. :confused:

So Carnival Corp have explored that avenue and it didn't work for them despite the high standard. So it'll be a while before they look at that option again, especially as a money-saver.

 

More likely they'll take the NCL route and fill their ships with enticing premium-pay restaurants, to the detriment of included meals in the MDR. That's my main concern, but I think they know that enough people will keep cruising if included food hits high-school standards.

 

Time will tell.

 

To others on this thread, yes some of us have wandered off-topic. But so much more worthwhile than posts about how others should set their spending priorities the same as they do.

 

JB :)

[Kevin7kodak7]

Different cruislines for different customers. We already have that. NCL is pushing the free extras so much that who wants to book and not get at least 2 of them. Then add on the bid for upgrade and most make it a premium experience now. Smart of them. With allk the mega ship coming they will have to up the game to fill them.

 

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[cruising_ana]

One of the things that we need to keep in mind is that the general ethic is ever-changing. I think sometimes some people think that there's a single "common" sense and that it never changes, but that is as far from the truth is anything could be. There is very little sense that is shared by everyone, and differences between people are even more pronounced on matters of leisure and diversion. Beyond that things change from generation to generation. And that change is not just to the next generation but that change has impact on the previous generations that are still alive. A great example of this is how my late mother came to appreciate the music of my generation.

 

One of those changes that is percolating through our society right now is a movement away from focusing on the material and towards focusing on experiences instead. Perhaps this is some of what is behind the move away from formal dress codes (and really the acquisition and possession of formal wear in general). Regardless it certainly will have an impact on things like how much splurging people will do on vacation.

 

And I know that even though I'm part of the older generation I'm affected by it as well. Where before I might have focused a bit more on what car I was driving or what jewelry I had now none of that really matters to me at all and my focus is on what experiences I can enjoy in the time I have left. That prompts me to reserve a balcony cabin; it prompts me to choose a bit more of a deluxe itinerary and perhaps even more upscale excursions. I'll even look positively on the idea of economizing a bit in my day-to-day in order to be able to maximize the luxury that I can forward on vacation. The day-to-day routine is going to end in the back of my mind while my Fondest Memories are those of the special occasions I share with my family.

 

This message may have been entered using voice recognition. Please excuse any typos.

Thank you for your insight. It was wonderful to read you.

 

Of course - it makes sense to take advantage of convenient, nearby opportunities. We go into New York City fairly often - it is a an easy, 45 minute, $7.50 train trip. We do not do it just because it is cheap - but it is the kind of thing we would not do nearly as often if it required a lot more time and a lot more money

 

We would probably cruise more often if we lived near a port frequented by ships we enjoyed - but because cruising the way we want to involves a significant allocation of disposable time and income, it makes sense to be a bit choosy.

 

 

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[bUU]

The cruising public will never set eyes on these reports, but the "suits" in the head office read them every day, and plan their business accordingly.

While we will never set eye on those reports, we can do a pretty good job reverse engineering what they say from observing the decisions that the cruise lines make, as long as we are able to set aside our consumerist biases.

 

 

 

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[DirtyDawg]

Carnival Corp's onboard revenue department has been very carefully tracking that sort of thing for many years now. The other major operators probably have as well.

 

Carnival has found a direct correlation between the amount spent for a cruise and the amount spent on a cruise.

That is, the vast majority of cruisers who buy a more expensive cabin spend far more money onboard than those who buy a cheaper cabin.

Bear in mind that we are talking about Mass Market cruising. Mass Market cruise lines don't really care what DirtyDawg or Cruising_Ana spend on their cruise. But they care a great deal about what 100,000 DirtyDawgs or 1,000,000 Cruising_Anas spend on average.

 

The cruising public will never set eyes on these reports, but the "suits" in the head office read them every day, and plan their business accordingly.

The Walmart business model has - and continues to - serve them well.

 

Thanks for your input.

[iancal]

There is not doubt that it is tracked. Both at HQ and on board. I suspect that each profit center on a cruise ship has a revenue and profit goal. We have been on various cruise lines/ships where, partly through the voyage, they have either annouced special offers or sent around cabin notices. Two for one specialty dining, special drink deals. Not the usual offers either but something special. We could only assume that the numbers were down on the first five or seven days and they need to get them back up on target.

[VennDiagram]

I think people are getting away from the original topic, which is not "what are the long-term economic ramifications of deal-seeking being the new norm," but "why are people frugal on vacation?" And that's a question which I think has a pretty easy answer. 1) Not everyone has unlimited money to spend on vacation and 2) Not everyone values the same things. I wouldn't buy a drinks package even if I was a multi-billionaire because I don't drink alcohol. A lot of the 'extras' just don't apply to some people.

 

I agree with your comments. And what is judged to be "frugal" by an onlooker may feel quite "extravagant" to the person doing (or not doing) the spending. My parents would have felt just being on a cruise was extravagant, but had no problem having a lake cottage, a big boat, and a motorhome. Different perspectives, different lifestyles....

[dsrdsrdsr]

I think we live in an "instant gratification" nation. I know of a few people at work that whet on a really cheap carnival cruises because they got a great "deal". They stated that it was not the cruise they wanted but it was all they could afford at the time. So I wonder why not save for 3 years and then buy the vacation that you really want. What's the point of getting a cheap deal if its not what you want??

Two reasons - one, if you want a luxury cruise now, a luxury cruise in three years' time isn't "the vacation they really want". It's three years too late. Two, who knows what will happen in three years? They might win the lottery and their savings become relatively valueless; they may be seriously ill or dead and their savings also become relatively (or absolutely) valueless. Carpe diem.

[iancal]

We typically only buy cruises inside the final payment window only if they are sold at a discount. But we travel, on average, twice a year for 6-8 weeks at a time. Some would consider us to be frugal. Others might say we are being smart by buying on value and extending our travel times. I guess it depends on one's perspective.

[Kevin7kodak7]

I agree with iancal. Would rather find a deal ago 2x instead of overspend on one. Find the slow weeks and get it for less. Booked a OV and got the same perks, freebies of a mini suite. Because of an off week was told good chance to win a bid for a mini suite with a lower bid than if I booked one on a more popular one. Off in 59 days.

 

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[cadien]

Touche :D

Here's one way in which a comparison between cheap/expensive airline seats and cheap/expensive cruise cabins isn't valid. A big proportion of business & first-class airline travel is for corporations' field managers & executives. So no worries for the traveller about the value-for-money, the cost is borne by stockholders or customers.

 

But I never did find a way to get a corporation to pay for my cruising, or a way to put cruise tickets on my tax return :(

 

JB :)

 

It's not common enough to affect the bottom line or influence business decisions, but there are industries that book cruises for conferences and other professional gatherings. Sadly, I don't work in any of them.

 

 

 

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[slidergirl]

It's not common enough to affect the bottom line or influence business decisions, but there are industries that book cruises for conferences and other professional gatherings. Sadly, I don't work in any of them.

 

 

 

 

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Get a job with ADP. Next year, their President's Club awards trip is a cruise out of Rome...

[dustyroad]

OK, let me point out a few of the ill considered examples you've made. It's insulting and ignorant to assume it's only about money.

 

-Flying in the same day - not everyone is retired or has the luxury of extensive vacation time. Some people have obligations that can't be shrugged off. Yes, flying or driving into the embarkation port is ideal, but not always possible.

 

- Eating at gas stations. I'm going to assume you're talking about drivers here. If you've got a long days drive, why make it longer by a prolonged restaurant meal. We've taken a few driving trips where grabbing a sandwich and drink at a gas stop was all we wanted, and saved us an hour,. It's not always about the money. Heck, we've even (gasped) been known to pack a picnic lunch that we've eaten at a rest stop. Not to save money, but for the fresh air.

 

-not doing optional excursions. Why would I pay the exorbitant fees for ship excursions that are usually crowded with too many people? I can find my own excursion from a local provider that will not only be the same or similar, for a lower price, but I won't have to put up with 50 other people on a huge bus. Or I can just do my own thing. Go and spend a day at a fabulous beach or a favorite museum and do things at my own pace, not at one set to accommodate someone else. I'm spending my money on what I want to do, the way I want to do it.

 

Not everyone drinks alcohol; or they drink very little. Why buy a booze package that they will get little value from. And believe it or not, there actually are people who are completely content with the offerings in the MDR, and don't feel a need to dine in the specialty restaurants.

 

And there are also some people who have to scrimp and save for years just to take one cruise. And they still have to be careful with their spending once on board.

 

We feel privileged that we can travel frequently without having to "pinch pennies". But we certainly are not going to disparage those folks who are trying to make the best with what they have. What would you like to see - some kind of bank account scrutiny before someone is allowed to board? Frankly I find the whole tone of your post arrogant. Feel free to vacation in the manner you prefer. But extend the same courtesy to your fellow travellers. Not every experience is determined by the amount of money you spend on it.

 

Thank you so much for your reply. It was much more '' nice '' than mine was going to be. Your examples were spot on. I for one am insulted at being called a Penny Pincher for having to have scrimped and saved to be on my cruises. I don't consider myself any less a important passenger just because I did other things than the poster to have a great time that had more money than I did. Once again, thanks for your great reply.

 

And finally, why does the poster care about what other cruises are spending anyway!!!!

Edited September 1, 2017 by dustyroad

[slidergirl]

Thank you so much for your reply. It was much more '' nice '' than mine was going to be. Your examples were spot on. I for one am insulted at being called a Penny Pincher for having to have scrimped and saved to be on my cruises. I don't consider myself any less a important passenger just because I did other things than the poster to have a great time that had more money than I did. Once again, thanks for your great reply.

 

And finally, why does the poster care about what other cruises are spending anyway!!!!

 

Autogrill! I can't drive the Autostrada in Italy without stopping in at an Autogrill and grabbing a sandwich, drink, and peruse the large display of cheeses, chocolates, candies...

[Karysa]

I'm surprised by what people find expensive and not worth it. A taxi ride to a beautiful Caribbean beach comes to mind. They instead walk to a sub par beach. This one seems so bizarre to me when the person then mentioned that they just lost $50 in the casino. I guess I figure that I could lose $50 at the casino back home but It's hard to find a beautiful beach nearby. Especially in March!:eek::) Don't think that was their taxi money either by the sound of it!