Why don't the Pilots wear uniforms?

[NMLady]

I am fascinated by this discussion. What is the nautical equivalent of a Jailhouse lawyer? Maybe an Admiralty Lawyer? Anyhow, lots of half-baked "facts" bandied about. Let's try another one: Why don't letter carriers or bus drivers wear uniforms?

 

Every letter carrier and bus driver I've seen wears a uniform. But that has nothing to do with cruising.

[CPT Trips]

You mean a brig lawyer?

BTW Ralph Kramden and Norm Peterson are often seen in uniform.

The real question is why do baseball managers and coaches wear uniforms?

[navybankerteacher]

Are you actually a cruise ship officer? I ask because this isn't the first time I've seen you post something that's blatantly wrong.

 

Assuming his user name reflects his seagoing experience, it is not at all surprising that he might not be that well informed on some topics. The purser on a ship has nothing to do with the navigation or maneuvering of the ship: he is essentially an accountant responsible for financial matters and supervision of staff not involved in seamanship -- his expertise is a lot closer to that of a business manager at a hotel than anything to do with the running of a ship. While they might be referred to as "ship's officers", their actual training was more likely to have taken place at a business school rather than at any maritime school.

[slidergirl]

I had to chuckle at the "retired captains" comment. Please meet my uncle Jack and my cousin Jack Jr. Both were pilots in Hampton Roads. I don't know when Jack became a pilot, but I know Jack Jr. (my age) was admitted to the pilots' association in his late 20s. It was mostly a "family" group - very few pilots in there did not have a family member who was a pilot. Their association did not have a "uniform" per-se, just a presentable, professional appearance and dress.

[chengkp75]

You are not totally correct w that statement. In the Panama Canal, the pilot is totally and legally in command on the bridge. He calls the shots, not the captain.

 

This is a quote from Wikipedia - "Only in transit of the Panama Canal and in Canada does the pilot have the full responsibility for the navigation of the vessel."

DON

 

While you are correct in that the PC pilot assumes responsibility for the vessel (and the reason for this is that the PC Authority also assumes financial responsibility for the vessel (damage to vessel, cargo, canal infrastructure, third party)), the part of the quote you highlighted was that the pilot is instructed "not to touch anything", and this holds true even in the Panama Canal. As a person who is not employed by the ship owner, the pilot is not legally allowed to operate any ship's equipment. He can order its use, and how it is used, but he cannot actually operate the helm, or telegraph, or radars. Typically he will ask permission before changing frequencies on the ship's radios if he needs to use them.

[sail7seas]

Pilots do not roam freely around the ship when they board headed to the ship's bridge. they are met by and escorted by ship's security. When they go from the area where jacob's ladder enters ship at the cut, they are welcomed aboard and escorted

 

 

We have a wonderful poster on the HAL CCforum ( Copper 10-8) who is a ship's Security Officer. He has posted photos ffom time tto time of pilf pilot entering the ship and the sailors in the entrancce there to aid him. They are wearing life vest in all those phottos The side of the ship is open...they need those safety vests..

Edited August 31, 2017 by sail7seas

[samshltn]

Just out of

idle curiosity

... what uniform do you wear when you're at work, and why?

[Capt_BJ]

previously posted but repeated here for your entertainment - from the standpoint of a guy who sat in the Captain's Chair:

 

some more PILOT tid bits

 

- in many ports there's more than one pilot involved. In San Fran which has been mentioned there is one group for the bay, another if continuing up river to Sacramento and special groups called docking pilots for some of the individual port areas around the bay. Pilots are "employed" by the State in the US, so if a ship in transit crosses state boundaries, the pilot changes . . . coming from sea and heading to Baltimore? Pick up a Virginia pilot off Norfolk but change to Maryland when you get up north a bit.

 

- you don't have to be in a 'harbor' to need a pilot. If you've taken an Alaskan cruise: the entire time cruising the 'inland passage' a pilot is on board and depending on where the ship is the pilot may be American or Canadian

 

- pilotage is mandatory by the laws of most countries and not free .... I've had just about every possible form of pilot board my ship from highly qualified to falling down drunk. In some cases the pilot speaks only their native tongue and was unable to communicate with anyone on the ship. I had 'em come to the bridge and immediately start issuing commands to the helm and engines and others who simply asked for coffee and their fee and never said another word . . . MOST introduce themselves to the Captain/Master and begin a discussion of the ship characteristics and how the relationship between the two will happen during their time together.

 

- the relationship between the pilot and the master is a delicate tap dance not taught in seamanship school! Or so it was for me. I'm told on some commercial vessels the Master simply sits back and lets the pilot do everything unquestioned ... especially when the Master does not speak the language of the realm.

 

- Some of the most significant ship 'incidents' in US ports have turned out to a result of the pilot's action for which the Master holds the bag ... but the pilot TOO can loose their license and be fined . . . on the other hand the pilots all tend to know each other so if in pilotage waters you see another ship approaching your pilot probably knows the pilot over there and they tend to have a shorthand to talk to one another ... and if tugs will be involved the pilots work with the local tugs every day. As a 'government vessel' of the US I was generally exempt from pilot requirements in the US, but in some ports would take a pilot anyway just because it was smart to do so . . .

 

************

updated comments based on the discussion

 

- It has been a very long time since I've seen a US Pilot board without a lifejacket/flotation device .... today's devices can be very small and almost invisible to the unfamiliar. In 'the islands' .... totally different picture.

 

- Pilot rules are specific to the country ..... rules in the US have no meaning out of the US.

 

- US Pilot "groups" are one of the remaining HUGE "good ol boy" groups in the US. This is a VERY closed community and even closed within EACH community. You don't often see position announcements ...... occasionally, but not often. A strong father to son progression. {he who said it was a retirement job for retirement Captains is very very unfamiliar with the position.}

 

- Uniforms are sometimes seen as demeaning .... some US pilot groups mandate a sport coat to present a business like image. I've seen pilots in the islands dressed like Admirals and others like Capt'n Ron!!!!

[sail7seas]

previously posted but repeated here for your entertainment - from the standpoint of a guy who sat in the Captain's Chair:

I think they have more than one pilot aboard when sailing St. Lawrence River. We sail overnight so one can sleep while the other works.

 

 

 

some more PILOT tid bits

 

- in many ports there's more than one pilot involved. In San Fran which has been mentioned there is one group for the bay, another if continuing up river to Sacramento and special groups called docking pilots for some of the individual port areas around the bay. Pilots are "employed" by the State in the US, so if a ship in transit crosses state boundaries, the pilot changes . . . coming from sea and heading to Baltimore? Pick up a Virginia pilot off Norfolk but change to Maryland when you get up north a bit.

 

- you don't have to be in a 'harbor' to need a pilot. If you've taken an Alaskan cruise: the entire time cruising the 'inland passage' a pilot is on board and depending on where the ship is the pilot may be American or Canadian

 

- pilotage is mandatory by the laws of most countries and not free .... I've had just about every possible form of pilot board my ship from highly qualified to falling down drunk. In some cases the pilot speaks only their native tongue and was unable to communicate with anyone on the ship. I had 'em come to the bridge and immediately start issuing commands to the helm and engines and others who simply asked for coffee and their fee and never said another word . . . MOST introduce themselves to the Captain/Master and begin a discussion of the ship characteristics and how the relationship between the two will happen during their time together.

 

- the relationship between the pilot and the master is a delicate tap dance not taught in seamanship school! Or so it was for me. I'm told on some commercial vessels the Master simply sits back and lets the pilot do everything unquestioned ... especially when the Master does not speak the language of the realm.

 

- Some of the most significant ship 'incidents' in US ports have turned out to a result of the pilot's action for which the Master holds the bag ... but the pilot TOO can loose their license and be fined . . . on the other hand the pilots all tend to know each other so if in pilotage waters you see another ship approaching your pilot probably knows the pilot over there and they tend to have a shorthand to talk to one another ... and if tugs will be involved the pilots work with the local tugs every day. As a 'government vessel' of the US I was generally exempt from pilot requirements in the US, but in some ports would take a pilot anyway just because it was smart to do so . . .

 

************

updated comments based on the discussion

 

- It has been a very long time since I've seen a US Pilot board without a lifejacket/flotation device .... today's devices can be very small and almost invisible to the unfamiliar. In 'the islands' .... totally different picture.

 

- Pilot rules are specific to the country ..... rules in the US have no meaning out of the US.

 

- US Pilot "groups" are one of the remaining HUGE "good ol boy" groups in the US. This is a VERY closed community and even closed within EACH community. You don't often see position announcements ...... occasionally, but not often. A strong father to son progression. {he who said it was a retirement job for retirement Captains is very very unfamiliar with the position.}

 

- Uniforms are sometimes seen as demeaning .... some US pilot groups mandate a sport coat to present a business like image. I've seen pilots in the islands dressed like Admirals and others like Capt'n Ron!!!!

Bermudas, kneesocks and blazer jacket in Bermuda??

[Capt_BJ]

following on to this discussion I found an NTSB report of an incident in the Panama Canal

 

A USCG Cutter was hit from behind by a tug/barge. The cutter had a canal pilot on board ... the following tug was operating without ... legally as it was a 'local operation vessel'

 

Short version ... at night the Cutter under control of the pilot slowed. The tug failed to notice this. The Cutter and pilot failed to notice the tug approaching rapidly from behind and the tug never noticed the Cutter in front. The tug/barge slammed into the back side of the Cutter causing damage estimated at over $1,000,000.

 

The NTSB report does NOT exonerate the Cutter as having been under control of the canal pilot ...... it pretty much blames all 3 parties equally for failure to do their job. Of course the NTSB report is NOT something that assigns financial liability ....

 

"The National Transportation Safety Board determines that the probable cause of the collision between the Matachin tow and the US Coast Guard cutter Thetis was the failure of the master of the Matachin to maintain a proper lookout and use radar to detect the vessel traffic ahead to avoid a collision. Contributing to the collision was the failure of the pilot and the navigational crew on board the Thetis to maintain a proper lookout."

 

wanna read it? https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/AccidentReports/Reports/MAB1722.pdf

[sail7seas]

i am unclear, but have a vague memorey of QEII going aground in Cape, Cod Canal, Massachusettts, U.S.A, My vague memory is ghgtg after invdsgtgiagtion, both Pilot and Master r were deemed to have cotributed to the incident. The ship suffered serious damage. This incident was years ago.

[chengkp75]

i am unclear, but have a vague memorey of QEII going aground in Cape, Cod Canal, Massachusettts, U.S.A, My vague memory is ghgtg after invdsgtgiagtion, both Pilot and Master r were deemed to have cotributed to the incident. The ship suffered serious damage. This incident was years ago.

 

There would not have been a pilot onboard as these are not restricted pilotage waters.

[sail7seas]

There would not have been a pilot onboard as these are not restricted pilotage waters.

A i am q uite sure you are likely right but it interests me to refresh my stale memory and will researdh tomorow. Are there not times when a pilot (though c ostly) is aboard even though not required? Again my memory of the incident is vague but I recall something about sfreious under water boulder,s rocks not on navigation maps at the time??

 

 

 

 

 

I

[chengkp75]

A i am q uite sure you are likely right but it interests me to refresh my stale memory and will researdh tomorow. Are there not times when a pilot (though c ostly) is aboard even though not required? Again my memory of the incident is vague but I recall something about sfreious under water boulder,s rocks not on navigation maps at the time??

I

 

I looked it up, and found that the QEII was not on the normal path from Nova Scotia to NYC, but was in fact in the area of Buzzards Bay between Cape Cod and Martha's Vineyard. So, yes, you are correct, there was a pilot onboard. This is one of those instances where the Captain overruled the pilot and directed a course further south than the one the pilot wished to follow. However, even the pilot did not feel that there was any problem with the Captain's chosen course (even though the pilot normally used the more northern course), since the charts indicated it would be fine. The area had not been surveyed since 1939.

[sail7seas]

I looked it up, and found that the QEII was not on the normal path from Nova Scotia to NYC, but was in fact in the area of Buzzards Bay between Cape Cod and Martha's Vineyard. So, yes, you are correct, there was a pilot onboard. This is one of those instances where the Captain overruled the pilot and directed a course further south than the one the pilot wished to follow. However, even the pilot did not feel that there was any problem with the Captain's chosen course (even though the pilot normally used the more northern course), since the charts indicated it would be fine. The area had not been surveyed since 1939.

Thank you so much for the clarification. i truly appreciate it as my memory was so vague. I think QEII had minimal repairs done in Boston just to make her able to sail TA back to GB. and I seem to recall riding over tobin Bridge going tgo Boston and looking down on her ffrom the bridge. A sad sight. Again, My thanks.

[chengkp75]

Thank you so much for the clarification. i truly appreciate it as my memory was so vague. I think QEII had minimal repairs done in Boston just to make her able to sail TA back to GB. and I seem to recall riding over tobin Bridge going tgo Boston and looking down on her ffrom the bridge. A sad sight. Again, My thanks.

 

She actually tore open 6 ballast tanks and one fuel tank. These all had to be closed up for her to continue back to Europe for permanent repairs.

[Keith1010]

My experience is that many of the pilots wear a vest.

 

Keith

[idraconis]

IMHO, there is three to four thousand people on a cruise ship. I doubt if anyone is sitting on the lido deck is wondering what the Harbor Pilot is wearing today.

[navybankerteacher]

I looked it up, and found that the QEII was not on the normal path from Nova Scotia to NYC, but was in fact in the area of Buzzards Bay between Cape Cod and Martha's Vineyard. So, yes, you are correct, there was a pilot onboard. This is one of those instances where the Captain overruled the pilot and directed a course further south than the one the pilot wished to follow. However, even the pilot did not feel that there was any problem with the Captain's chosen course (even though the pilot normally used the more northern course), since the charts indicated it would be fine. The area had not been surveyed since 1939.

 

I believe it is standard practice to carry pilots for the rare occasions when passenger ships transit the (very narrow) Cape Cod Canal between Buzzards Bay and Cape Cod Bay - both of which are considered inland waters.

[chengkp75]

I believe it is standard practice to carry pilots for the rare occasions when passenger ships transit the (very narrow) Cape Cod Canal between Buzzards Bay and Cape Cod Bay - both of which are considered inland waters.

 

I don't think the ship was in the Cape Cod Canal, was she? If so, that makes sense in having a pilot onboard, but I don't think the QEII would fit under the bridge there. The Viking Star hit the bridge last year, and I believe the QEII is taller, and her draft is right around the maximum for the canal. I believe she was in Vinyard Sound, not Buzzards Bay.

Edited September 3, 2017 by chengkp75

[navybankerteacher]

I don't think the ship was in the Cape Cod Canal, was she? If so, that makes sense in having a pilot onboard, but I don't think the QEII would fit under the bridge there. The Viking Star hit the bridge last year, and I believe the QEII is taller, and her draft is right around the maximum for the canal. I believe she was in Vinyard Sound, not Buzzards Bay.

 

Yes - you're right - both road bridges and the railroad lift bridge have about 135' clearance, while QEII's masthead had to have been significantly higher. I do recall reading press stories about how she had transited the canal -.

[sail7seas]

You byth have zapped my memory and I now remember the press covergage at the time which, of course, was intense. I also seem to recall most importantly, no one was injured in the incident.

[jcl410]

I don't think the ship was in the Cape Cod Canal, was she?

 

 

You are correct. According to a NTSB recommendation report (the actual accident report isn't online) she had spent the day anchored off of Martha's Vineyard for shore excursions. They left after dark headed to New York scheduled to arrive later the same night.

 

The NTSB blamed bad communication between the Pilot, Master, and 2nd officer (who was watching the chart). The ship ended up at over 20 knots going over a shoal charted around 50 feet. The crew underestimated the sqaut(1) effect, and grounded on an uncharted rock that was later found to be at 31 feet.

 

 

Aloha,

 

John

 

(1) sqaut is the effect of a ship's hull being pulled down, increasing its draft, as it speeds up while sailing over a "shallow" seafloor.

[clearwaters]

Yikes. They must have stomachs of steel. I would be sick as a dog bouncing back and forth ship to ship in that choppy water with those ships side by side. 🤢

 

 

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