Norovirus on Zaandam

[Ken the cruiser]

Should HAL be blamed for not 24/7 demanding passengers follow clear and direct instructions upfront about personal sanitation.

 

HAL has to pay the price when passengers continue to negligent and careless about their own sanitary habits, but to put the blame HAL for not forcing them to do clean hand checks on passengers 24/7 seems pretty irresponsible on the passengers part. I think we stopped doing this in kindergarten.

 

Do we now ask passengers to sign a pledge they will abide by all sanitation instructions up front and be done with this constant requirement for HAL to be in loco parentis while while serving adult passengers and adult parents of children passengers onboard.

Yes, HAL as well as other cruise lines should be blamed if they are not taking proactive steps, whether or not noro has been detected on the ship, to help minimize the spread of viruses. They should ensure folks coming onboard, whether it’s during the initial boarding or after coming back from an excursion, sanitize their hands.

 

They should encourage folks to sanitize their hands during the first 48 hours of the cruise when going into a dining facility to minimize cross contamination when folks bring their “bugs” onboard from the airport or other public transportation they used to get to the ship.

 

Perception is everything and if HAL isn’t even attempting to do any of that, then the answer is yes, they are part of the problem rather than part of the solution.

 

And if the cruise ship is providing hand sanitizer that is not at least 60+% alcohol, then they need to upgrade to one that does. IMHO

[Fouremco]

Yes, HAL as well as other cruise lines should be blamed if they are not taking proactive steps, whether or not noro has been detected on the ship

In my experience, HAL does take extensive proactive steps. I've seen lots of passengers decline the proffered sanitizer, however, sometimes quite rudely, and we've all seen passengers departing the toilets making no effort to wash their hands. There's only so much that HAL can do, then it's up to the passengers, all of them, to do their part too.

[Ken the cruiser]

In my experience, HAL does take extensive proactive steps. I've seen lots of passengers decline the proffered sanitizer, however, sometimes quite rudely, and we've all seen passengers departing the toilets making no effort to wash their hands. There's only so much that HAL can do, then it's up to the passengers, all of them, to do their part too.

Really? They used to have a crew member at the end of the gangway ensuring folks sanitize their hands before coming onboard. They used to have crew members at the Lido entrance the first 48 hours asking folks to sanitize their hands. They used to have sanitizer dispensers at the entrance of the theater. They didn't on our Antarctica cruise this past January when there was a massive amount of coughing going on as it was at the height of the cold and flu season.

 

Maybe it's because they have cut back on crew size to save some bucks and they just don't have the numbers any more. Don't know. But, they sure have gone down hill in the last 2 years when it comes to being proactive. Yes, they have hand washing machines in the Lido Market, but maybe only 20% of the folks use them and the Purell sanitizer is no way near the 60+% alcohol content to kill the nasty bugs, let alone the noro bug. Again, it's just my opinion, but then again we don't cruise that much anymore with HAL, so maybe things have changed since January.

Edited June 25, 2018 by Ken the cruiser

[bcummin]

The only change after the outbreak was they moved the hand sanitizer out from the side of the entrance of restaurants to the center and there is a crewmember standing there directing you to use it. In the main dining room, there is no longer a bread basket on the table and no sugar packets for coffee. They have to hand it to you. You can grab all you want in the Lido though so that makes no sense! Other than that they have not changed anything. IMO!

 

Yes, careless passengers are to blame.

However, a good ship works hard to eliminate the virus. When we were on ms Volendam in March and April, we were on code red after Shanghai for way over a week.

I do feel that our ship had been pro active with the hand sanitizers and cleanliness. Yes, Crew greeted us at the gangway by the hand sanitizer.

Someone brought the virus aboard, and the Crew ended up working constantly cleaning, etc. There were lots of changes. The CD and a photographer among others dispensed hand sanitizer in the Lido. No passenger access to coffee machines, etc.in the Lido. Entertainers and others helped serve beverages . Tiny servings of Muelsi and fruit replaced the large tubs for self serve. We were individually served bread and packets of things at dinner along with our meals. We felt so sorry for our overworked Crew. Our Captain updated us daily with encouragement to comply and keep washing our hands. We were all in this together, and he was able to hand over a clean ship to the next Captain in Yokahama.

Barbara

Edited June 25, 2018 by bcummin

[frankc98376]

Spoke to an infection control person recently that recommended Clorox sanitizer spray. Is 70% ethanol and evidently very effective. She said she has seen it in Staples or on Amazon- likely not in discount stores or big box pharmacies.

 

She also said nothing beats frequent hand washing with soap :-)

Edited June 25, 2018 by frankc98376

[OlsSalt]

Yes, HAL as well as other cruise lines should be blamed if they are not taking proactive steps, whether or not noro has been detected on the ship, to help minimize the spread of viruses. They should ensure folks coming onboard, whether it’s during the initial boarding or after coming back from an excursion, sanitize their hands.

 

They should encourage folks to sanitize their hands during the first 48 hours of the cruise when going into a dining facility to minimize cross contamination when folks bring their “bugs” onboard from the airport or other public transportation they used to get to the ship.

 

Perception is everything and if HAL isn’t even attempting to do any of that, then the answer is yes, they are part of the problem rather than part of the solution.

 

And if the cruise ship is providing hand sanitizer that is not at least 60+% alcohol, then they need to upgrade to one that does. IMHO

 

Nonsense. Not in my experience. HAL is doing all of this. Genuflecting in front of over-rated"hand sanitizer" station to partake in its magical curative beneficence may be the only missing link. I believe HAL does not pour the stuff on you any longer (they did this in the past) is because like most overkill use of faux "sterilization" products they learned this was simply not working to correct continued human negligence in the infection chain.

 

Wash your hands. Do not put your always potentially contaminated fingertips in your eyes, mouth, nose or ears. Have a great cruise.

[OlsSalt]

Is HAL irresponsible not confronting passengers at all times to use hand-sanitizers, or are they keeping up responsibly with the emerging science?

 

From the Berkeley Wellness Letter:

 

Is there evidence they actually prevent colds and other infections?

Yes. For instance, in a study in BMC Infectious Diseases in 2010, office workers who were encouraged to use an alcohol-based hand sanitizer at least five times each workday were about two-thirds less likely to get sick than those who continued to just wash their hands. An earlier study found that families given hand sanitizers had about 60 percent fewer gastrointestinal infections over the next five months than families that did not receive them.

But the products are not as effective against norovirus (the most common cause of gastrointestinal illness worldwide, notably on cruise ships). A 2011 study in the American Journal of Infection Control, for example, found that there were more norovirus outbreaks in long-term care facilities that favored alcohol hand sanitizers over soap and water.

[Fouremco]

Yes, they have hand washing machines in the Lido Market, but maybe only 20% of the folks use them and the Purell sanitizer is no way near the 60+% alcohol content to kill the nasty bugs, let alone the noro bug.

Thank you for making my point: HAL proactively provides the hand washing machines but only 20% or so of passengers actually bother to use them, in spite of the proven superiority of hand washing in controlling Noro.

 

As for Purell, its alcohol content is 70%. CDC recommends 60-95%.

[Ken the cruiser]

I have one suggestion because as we all know, talk is cheap. The next time you are on any cruise that is at least 10 or more days, especially in the winter months, try doing this test.

 

Starting around day 7-9, go to the evening show and roughly note the number of people coughing before the show starts. Note: It usually takes around 6-7 days for a cold to start showing symptoms like with a scratchy throat followed by coughing. If on day 8 or 9 all is relatively calm, then the cruise line you're on as well as the passengers are doing a good job being proactive with their hygiene practices.

 

 

 

Then on days 14-16, if you are on a longer cruise, see if those coughing levels have decreased or increased. Again, if the cruise line and the passengers are doing a good job, you won't notice a lot of coughing. The reason for the second survey is because the folks displaying the coughing symptom during days 7-9 probably gave their cold/flu virus to them, maybe in the elevator, on a hand rail or chair, or when they were sitting or standing behind them on an excursion. We were on a 22 day HAL cruise on the Zaandam in January and by the 21st day, a bunch of people were coughing before the show.

 

I know, it sounds stupid. But if you're curious and you're looking for some entertainment before the show, it will give you something quietly to do while you're waiting that 30-40 minutes before the show to start. Because you know on a HAL cruise, you need to get there at least 30-45 minutes early to get a good seat. It may also motivate those that tend to forget to wash their hands as much as they should. Just a suggestion. ;)

[bcummin]

The Cough and norovirus are two different things.

Your test/survey/entertainment will show who did not remember to pack Robitussin.

Barbara

[Fouremco]

I have one suggestion because as we all know, talk is cheap.

Ken, the discussion to date has been about the norovirus and HAL's preventative measures. Now you are talking about coughs and colds and the flu, which are very different to the norovirus in many ways, including how they are transmitted and their potential preventative measures. Short of locking all passengers in their cabins, what do you want HAL to do to prevent passengers from spreading their colds or flu?

[Ken the cruiser]

The Cough and norovirus are two different things.

Your test/survey/entertainment will show who did not remember to pack Robitussin.

Barbara

The point being if the cruise line and passengers are doing a good job of personal hygiene and the hand sanitizer provided onboard is 99.999% effective, unlike the Purell brand according to their website, then the norovirus as well as the cold and flu viruses, which can very easily turn into bronchitis, will have a much harder time spreading throughout the ship. Getting the norovirus on a ship can ruin a cruise, but so can getting bronchitis, especially early on if you are on a longer cruise.

[OlsSalt]

The point being if the cruise line and passengers are doing a good job of personal hygiene and the hand sanitizer provided onboard is 99.999% effective, unlike the Purell brand according to their website, then the norovirus as well as the cold and flu viruses, which can very easily turn into bronchitis, will have a much harder time spreading throughout the ship. Getting the norovirus on a ship can ruin a cruise, but so can getting bronchitis, especially early on if you are on a longer cruise.

 

The hand sanitizer is "99% effective" against exactly what? What duration of contact is required. Surface debridement with soap and water is probably closer to 100%, so again is the use of a liquid hand sanitizer offering anything more than any other surface debridement method. (Nothing will sterilize skin so nothing is 100% effective). Do you know if this 99% "effective" claim is made in vitro or in vivo.

 

BTW: the Clorox hand sanitizer is 71% isopropyl alcohol. Price and compare or just buy it straight and create your own hand mister.

 

Again, what I am seeing is conferring "magic potion" qualities on purely unqualified marketing claims, but with no footnoted validating science.

 

Upper respiratory infections - again a huge passenger negligence factor is the primary driver: not covering coughs or sneezes, touching public access items after you have coughed, sneezed or blown your nose. Sticking your own finger tips into your own nose thereby inoculating your own self - or inhaling any droplet spray. Hand sanitizers are not going to do you a bit of good on that common form of transmisson. The airplane is often the primary source for upper respiratory infections that you bring on board with you.

 

I am also however a believer in mind/body mediation of the immune system, so throw that into the magic potion "prevention" mix. Be good to your immune system so it can do what it has been programed to do over eons - be your first line of defense. When it wants to be. And when it can be. Both are important.

[ArtsyCraftsy]

The Cough and norovirus are two different things.

Your test/survey/entertainment will show who did not remember to pack Robitussin.

Barbara

 

Bingo! Assuming that handwashing and sanitizer can prevent all common communicable illness is a huge assumption -- not everything is transmitted via touch.

 

I took my first cruise ever last fall (HAL Amsterda, 14 days, r/trip from Seattle to Alaska). The evening I returned home (literally 12 hours after disembarkation in Seattle), I got that familiar throat tickle/scratchy feeling and within 24 hrs I was down with a bad cold and cough.

 

Since it was my first cruise, I had been religious about hand washing (yes, soap and water when available) as well as using hand sanitizer at every opportunity. I still got sick. And I'm one of those folks for whom a cold can turn deadly in a short time. I ended up with viral pneumonia which required an 8-week recovery.

 

According to my pulmonologist, no amount of hand washing/sanitizing/etc. could have prevented this. Since the incubation period is 7-10 days, he said that I definitely picked it up on the ship from someone who coughed or sneezed nearby. All it took was for me to be physically in the vicinity while breathing. The only mistake I made was waiting a week before going to see the doctor (I'm kind of stubborn that way) -- and so it took longer to recover.

 

I'm in final preparations for this year's 38-day Voyage of the Vikings (July 18). My doc has made sure I'm well stocked with meds that should help prevent a cold from turning into something much worse. No guarantees, but should I end up noticing that scratchy throat/etc. somewhere along the way on the trip, I'm much better prepared.

 

Lana in Bellingham, WA

[Ken the cruiser]

Ken, the discussion to date has been about the norovirus and HAL's preventative measures. Now you are talking about coughs and colds and the flu, which are very different to the norovirus in many ways, including how they are transmitted and their potential preventative measures. Short of locking all passengers in their cabins, what do you want HAL to do to prevent passengers from spreading their colds or flu?

Just do what they use to do 2+ years ago like I noted above. Have crew posted at the gangway to make sure folks sanitize their hands, unless they pitch a fit, of course. Make sure folks wash their hands in the hand washing machines when they enter the Lido buffet the first 48 hours of the cruise. This way folks get used to doing it rather than wondering what they are or just ignore them. Provide hand sanitizer stations around the ship, to include at the entrance of the theater, that has a 99.999% effective rate, which includes effectiveness against the norovirus.

 

But my guess is they have reduced the size of their crew so much they just don't have the manpower to do this and have made a business decision to stay with Purell as I'm sure it's much cheaper than buying the higher quality sanitizer. It all comes down to the bottom line which we understand.

 

That's why Oceania is now our new "control" cruise line which we compare all other cruise lines we're interested in cruising with against, to include HAL now. HAL used to be our go-to cruise line until a couple of years ago when their entertainment and preventative hygiene practices started backsliding. But that's just us. If you enjoy cruising with HAL, that's cool. We have a 40 day cruise booked with them in 2019. After that we'll just have to see what unique itineraries they post.

[OlsSalt]

I'm in final preparations for this year's 38-day Voyage of the Vikings (July 18). My doc has made sure I'm well stocked with meds that should help prevent a cold from turning into something much worse. No guarantees, but should I end up noticing that scratchy throat/etc. somewhere along the way on the trip, I'm much better prepared.

 

Lana in Bellingham, WA

 

Wonder what medications that would be, since URI are viral, not bacterial and how would a lay person know when to use an anti-biotic for "prevention" since over-use and inappropriate use of anti-biotics is even more of a global scourge.

 

No I don't expect or want you to tell me, but I hope we can again extend some facts and education into the world of science - doctors continue to remain a weak link in indiscriminately over-prescribing anti-biotics for unverified conditions, along with their patients demanding them for generalized complaints.

 

This is a general and documented observation I am making here, and may have nothing to do with your personal health considerations - that indeed is between only you and your doctor. Know the difference between viral and bacterial infections before you self-treat: https://www.healthymepa.com/2017/02/21/do-you-need-antibiotics/

[bcummin]

Artsy Craftsy, you sound well prepared for your Voyage of the Vikings. Enjoy!

Packing meds seem to have protected me from The Cough on our last two cruises.

 

OlsSalt, my meds are orange juice daily onboard, Airborne if a cold tries to start, decongestant if needed, and Robitussin if needed for The Cough. So far, so good.

 

Barbara in Port Angeles

Edited June 26, 2018 by bcummin

[Fouremco]

Just do what they use to do 2+ years ago like I noted above. Have crew posted at the gangway to make sure folks sanitize their hands, unless they pitch a fit, of course. Make sure folks wash their hands in the hand washing machines when they enter the Lido buffet the first 48 hours of the cruise. This way folks get used to doing it rather than wondering what they are or just ignore them. Provide hand sanitizer stations around the ship, to include at the entrance of the theater, that has a 99.999% effective rate, which includes effectiveness against the norovirus.

 

But my guess is they have reduced the size of their crew so much they just don't have the manpower to do this and have made a business decision to stay with Purell as I'm sure it's much cheaper than buying the higher quality sanitizer. It all comes down to the bottom line which we understand.

 

That's why Oceania is now our new "control" cruise line which we compare all other cruise lines we're interested in cruising with against, to include HAL now. HAL used to be our go-to cruise line until a couple of years ago when their entertainment and preventative hygiene practices started backsliding. But that's just us. If you enjoy cruising with HAL, that's cool. We have a 40 day cruise booked with them in 2019. After that we'll just have to see what unique itineraries they post.

Enjoy Oceania. CDC shows they've had their share share of noro outbreaks too. Of course, you know about that, having contributed, inter alia, to the current Oceania board thread Regatta and Noro - Happening to often (sic). Whatever makes you feel safer.:rolleyes:

[whogo]

I am also however a believer in mind/body mediation of the immune system, so throw that into the magic potion "prevention" mix...

Sounds like something from Oprah.

[OlsSalt]

Sounds like something from Oprah.

 

Norman Cousins was the leading lay spokeman, long before Oprah - PNI - psycho-neuro-immunology - research work done at UCLA - quite fascinating premise. https://www.semel.ucla.edu/cousins

[Ken the cruiser]

Enjoy Oceania. CDC shows they've had their share share of noro outbreaks too. Of course, you know about that, having contributed, inter alia, to the current Oceania board thread Regatta and Noro - Happening to often (sic). Whatever makes you feel safer.:rolleyes:

We will. Thanks! On our last cruise, not only was the food fantastic, hand sanitizer dispensers rated at 99.999% effectiveness rate were placed all over the ship and they gave us two hand spray bottles of the same quality in our cabin to take on excursions or to use whenever. At least O is trying to stem the spread of viruses on the ship. HAL isn't in our opinion other than providing hand washing machines in the Lido Market.

 

But, in any case, that's just us. Have fun cruising on whatever cruise line you choose!!

Edited June 26, 2018 by Ken the cruiser

[ArtsyCraftsy]

Wonder what medications that would be, since URI are viral, not bacterial and how would a lay person know when to use an anti-biotic for "prevention" since over-use and inappropriate use of anti-biotics is even more of a global scourge.

 

No I don't expect or want you to tell me, but I hope we can again extend some facts and education into the world of science - doctors continue to remain a weak link in indiscriminately over-prescribing anti-biotics for unverified conditions, along with their patients demanding them for generalized complaints.

 

This is a general and documented observation I am making here, and may have nothing to do with your personal health considerations - that indeed is between only you and your doctor. Know the difference between viral and bacterial infections before you self-treat: https://www.healthymepa.com/2017/02/21/do-you-need-antibiotics/

 

I understand your concern -- a lot of docs prescribe antibiotics when they really aren't needed and wouldn't do any good anyway. Long term, it can lead to serious problems as you describe above.

 

But after struggling with Stage 3 ("severe") COPD for the past 7 years, and going through several severe bronchitis episodes that started with a simple cold caused by a virus, I have a pretty good handle on when/when not to use antibiotics. I've been working with the same pulmonologist during that entire period. We had quite a discussion a few weeks ago about how to prepare for my upcoming trip. He has treated every episode I've had since 2011 when I was first diagnosed, so he knows the drill and how I react to various meds/etc.

 

I don't mind talking about the precautions my pulmonary doc prescribed since you did "wonder" about it, and it may serve to inform those who aren't familiar with the challenges of COPD: prednisone and, yes, antibiotics in case I develop a bacterial infection (I know the signs -- I've been through it a few times). I'm also bringing my nebulizer + albuterol just in case -- I also have asthma which can complicate things even more. I may not need any of this, but given what happened on my first trip, we'd rather be prepared than having to rely on the ship's medical team who may or may not have on hand what is needed. I'll also be more aware of what sniffling/sneezing/coughing is going on around me, and take whatever precautions I can to avoid exposure to whatever bug is making the rounds.

 

Also, HAL is aware of my situation via the Special Requirements Information (SRI). So, we're good.

 

By the way, I'm living proof that a non-smoker can develop COPD. My pulmonologist believes it is the result of second-hand smoke: my father was a heavy smoker so I was exposed to it from birth until I got married and moved away from home at age 20. Talk about bad luck, huh?

 

Lana in Bellingham

[curtdesilets]

The discussion has gone askew. Any more info on the specific outbreak on Zaandam?

[kazu]

Enjoy Oceania. CDC shows they've had their share share of noro outbreaks too. Of course, you know about that, having contributed, inter alia, to the current Oceania board thread Regatta and Noro - Happening to often (sic). Whatever makes you feel safer.:rolleyes:

 

I was on the Riviera when it had Noro so I can attest that HAL does a far better job in handling the outbreak. Everything from cleaning, sanitizing and protective measures was superior on HAL.

[trvlwrld]

Have they determined that it is definitely noro or is it something else?