CDC report - Edge:90 - lowest of any Celebrity ship!

[chengkp75]

1 hour ago, helen haywood said:

When would the corrective action report be released?

I believe that they have 60 days to submit a CAR, but the CDC website is not always the fastest to update things.

[Fogfog]

Reading the report now

One note--was the duplicate food temp logs for Tuscan...to "correct" errors. I have no training in this area yet a duplicate log makes me wonder if the supervisors in that area are on top of things

 

The report re potable water using plastic wrap and not proper caps was an eye popper...

again without training one's imagination runs away

 

The violations re ventilation over the grill area and the pasta area... how does one remedy that?

Edited February 12, 2019 by Fogfog

[Lastdance]

Everything that I keep reading adds credence to why sailing on a new ship may not be the best idea.  The marketing hype for Edge was over the top, and then reality made huge steps backward.  Safety regarding food is extremely important, so hopefully, these issues will be corrected ASAP!  

 

Many thanks to all who have sailed and shared the good, bad and ugly, as you have given Edge a reality check, along with the CDC...thanks for posting the report, as I cruise the end of April. Furthermore, many thanks to many of the crew who have done their best under anything but optimal conditions.

Edited February 12, 2019 by Lastdance

[johhnnyt]

Not an excuse but its not like it failed, and it it happens on every cruise line. It happens, i noticed the inspection was performed 12/9 after they had just completed those five 2 and 3 day cruises. I'm sure after doing them the crew had to be exhausted doing embark and debark almost continuously for two weeks

Edited February 12, 2019 by johhnnyt

[chengkp75]

1 hour ago, Fogfog said:

Reading the report now

One note--was the duplicate food temp logs for Tuscan...to "correct" errors. I have no training in this area yet a duplicate log makes me wonder if the supervisors in that area are on top of things

 

The report re potable water using plastic wrap and not proper caps was an eye popper...

again without training one's imagination runs away

 

The violations re ventilation over the grill area and the pasta area... how does one remedy that?

Blast chiller logs are one of the hardest areas to drill into the galley staff's heads.  When food is cooked, and then cooled for storage and later use, it must be brought through the "danger zone" in a prescribed amount of time, from 135*F to 70*F within 2 hours, and from 70*F to 41*F within 4 hours.  Most ships use "blast chillers" to do this, and it also requires proper sizing of pans to produce the maximum surface area (wide, shallow pans not deep ones) to enhance cooling, and the logs require actually taking the dish's temperature with a hand thermometer every hour, rather than relying on the master thermometer of the chiller.  While many of the galley staff will get the food chilled in the proper time, getting them to write the logsheets is a major headache.

 

The potable water caps is not that big a deal, at least they were covering the ends.  We normally rolled the hoses such that we threaded the two ends together, doing the same thing as capping the ends.  Even with poor storage, before the hoses are used, the ends must be submerged in a chlorine solution for a couple minutes to sanitize them.

 

There is no mention whether or not the ventilation is actually required, it is just that the crew were heating the bain marie (steam table) water too much and causing steam formation which then condensed on the ceiling and dripped back down into food.  There is not a requirement for an exhaust vent over a bain marie, but it does help.

[Jim_Iain]

I found it amazing that the Medical Center wasn't logging the required items in the required format.   I would have thought it would be easy to have a standard log used across the fleet. 

 

 

[jan-n-john]

4 hours ago, ecslady said:

 

I know it is a new ship, but why wouldn't the provisions stock be based on what other X ships normally use in a 7 day cruise?   Ships restock all the time and yes it can vary from week to week, but were they expecting a completely different demographic that was going to eat and drink way different than the X normal?  I think X could have done a better job. 

 

 

The menu setup on Edge appears to me to be a major departure from the past.  Many more dishes due in part to the 4 MDR idea, and much more ambitious and updated choice of dishes (take a look at the menu in Eden) as well as the approach to preparation of traditional offerings.   Photos I have seen suggest an updated approach to just about everything.  So yes this is somewhat uncharted territory and it is reasonable to think they will need some time to see what people are ordering and thus how to provision.

[Paulras]

Wonder what Virgin's first report will look like next year. Not only a new ship but a new cruise line. 

[Silkroad]

19 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

The potable water caps is not that big a deal, at least they were covering the ends.  We normally rolled the hoses such that we threaded the two ends together, doing the same thing as capping the ends.  Even with poor storage, before the hoses are used, the ends must be submerged in a chlorine solution for a couple minutes to sanitize them.

Thanks very much for sharing your knowledge with us, chengkp75. Since I board Edge in April, I wasn't pleased to see food storage & potable water violations. Are you saying that provided the potable water is capped with something (such as plastic instead of the proper caps) it is safe to drink and use for food prep?

[Silkroad]

1 hour ago, Fogfog said:

One note--was the duplicate food temp logs for Tuscan...to "correct" errors. I have no training in this area yet a duplicate log makes me wonder if the supervisors in that area are on top of things

I agree. I'm quite suspicious of duplicate logs in any setting, but find them especially suspicious in food service, health care, and industrial settings.

[Fogfog]

TY @chengko75 

That is helpful. I suspect the staff is busy with food prep and there needs to be someone in charge per shift to make those manual temp checks... 

 

The duplicate logs seems dubious

 

The exhaust issue over the stir fry leaving the sneeze guards greasy--and the various comments about surfaces being dirtier than reasonable for a 24 hr period makes it sound like the "shake down" cruise for these staff/crew has been hectic. 

 

The condensation dripping from the ceiling is just gross.  I would guess there is a sweet spot with keeping the food hot and the temps of the bain marie correct vs the overheating or otoh risk of food at improper temps etc.

 

 

Edited February 12, 2019 by Fogfog

[Fogfog]

3 minutes ago, Silkroad said:

I agree. I'm quite suspicious of duplicate logs in any setting, but find them especially suspicious in food service, health care, and industrial settings.

Right

 

As though there was the real log...and then the staff had to come up with numbers/temps for the required checks for the cooler/chiller and there were CHANGED numbers.

 

Whoever made the new log --- do they have to sign it?

 

I realize that many say MOST cases of NORO are brought onto the ship from shore

Having read the health inspec. reports in our local news for land based restaurants--it is a wonder

Nothing beats thorough soap and water and handwashing

 

[chengkp75]

1 hour ago, Silkroad said:

Thanks very much for sharing your knowledge with us, chengkp75. Since I board Edge in April, I wasn't pleased to see food storage & potable water violations. Are you saying that provided the potable water is capped with something (such as plastic instead of the proper caps) it is safe to drink and use for food prep?

What these deficiencies are talking about are the hoses used to load water from shore.  When water is loaded from shore, as I said, the hoses need to be sanitized before they are connected up, and then before the water enters the storage tanks, the water is chlorinated.  Water taken in port must be kept segregated and not used until a coliform bacteria test comes back negative, which takes 18-24 hours.  Then the water is considered safe to use.  The water taken from the ship's tanks, when circulated around the ship, is again chlorinated to ensure that there is a residual chlorine content at the furthest point in the system, of at least 0.5ppm.  So, yes, the proper caps on the potable water hoses is about a third level of safety for potable water.

[AmazedByCruising]

46 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

When food is cooked, and then cooled for storage and later use, it must be brought through the "danger zone" in a prescribed amount of time, from 135*F to 70*F within 2 hours, and from 70*F to 41*F within 4 hours.  Most ships use "blast chillers" to do this, and it also requires proper sizing of pans to produce the maximum surface area (wide, shallow pans not deep ones) to enhance cooling, and the logs require actually taking the dish's temperature with a hand thermometer every hour, rather than relying on the master thermometer of the chiller. 

 

Would it be possible to stick an electronic thermometer in the dish, click Start, and after a while a light turns green when the proper temperature is reached or red when one of the goals wasn't met in time?

[Silkroad]

Thanks chengkp75. Your response is very helpful to those of us who are largely ignorant of the potable water process aboard ships. While I hope Celebrity fixes all deficiencies ASAP, I shan't be afraid to drink the water.

[chengkp75]

1 hour ago, Fogfog said:

TY @chengko75 

That is helpful. I suspect the staff is busy with food prep and there needs to be someone in charge per shift to make those manual temp checks... 

 

The duplicate logs seems dubious

 

The exhaust issue over the stir fry leaving the sneeze guards greasy--and the various comments about surfaces being dirtier than reasonable for a 24 hr period makes it sound like the "shake down" cruise for these staff/crew has been hectic. 

 

The condensation dripping from the ceiling is just gross.  I would guess there is a sweet spot with keeping the food hot and the temps of the bain marie correct vs the overheating or otoh risk of food at improper temps etc.

 

 

There is usually one cook assigned to the blast chiller if it is being used.  It seems that the idea of using a pen and paper in a kitchen is foreign to a lot of these folks.

 

Yes, like I said, there are examples of the crew working out how the individual nature of equipment on the Edge works, and what needs to be done on what frequency.  That still does not excuse management from not sending corporate assistance teams to help the supervisors with training the crew.

 

One of the problems we had with bain maries is that the mostly distilled water onboard is slightly acidic and fairly reactive and tends to corrode holes in the stainless steel steam trays when heated.  We would tell the cooks to add a little baking soda to neutralize the water, and a little salt to add minerals, and this also had the benefit of raising the boiling temperature of the water to reduce condensation.  Condensation tends to be a big problem over the large belt type dishwashers and we always had issues with ducting problems over these units.

[Fogfog]

7 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

There is usually one cook assigned to the blast chiller if it is being used.  It seems that the idea of using a pen and paper in a kitchen is foreign to a lot of these folks.

 

Yes, like I said, there are examples of the crew working out how the individual nature of equipment on the Edge works, and what needs to be done on what frequency.  That still does not excuse management from not sending corporate assistance teams to help the supervisors with training the crew.

 

One of the problems we had with bain maries is that the mostly distilled water onboard is slightly acidic and fairly reactive and tends to corrode holes in the stainless steel steam trays when heated.  We would tell the cooks to add a little baking soda to neutralize the water, and a little salt to add minerals, and this also had the benefit of raising the boiling temperature of the water to reduce condensation.  Condensation tends to be a big problem over the large belt type dishwashers and we always had issues with ducting problems over these units.

 

@chengkp75Interesting.

Is there a large use of Sous Vide on the ships as there is on land based restaurants?

I have a sous vide and cover it while in use because of condensation. I have rinsed the unit once with vinegar (to prevent scale) though with a whole house filter the mineral risk is less of an issue

Clever re the baking soda/salt... and the boiling pt/condensation. In the case of a sous vide it would likely corrode the heater/circulating pump faster (yes?)

Edited February 12, 2019 by Fogfog

[chengkp75]

56 minutes ago, AmazedByCruising said:

 

Would it be possible to stick an electronic thermometer in the dish, click Start, and after a while a light turns green when the proper temperature is reached or red when one of the goals wasn't met in time?

Have you taken a galley tour on the ships?  Have you seen the racks that they have that hold about a dozen pans for roasting chickens, etc?  That kind of rack is what goes into the blast chiller, and each and every tray of food needs to have its temperature checked.  To do this, you need to open the cabinet door, but I guess you could have built in thermometers with probes to put in each pan, but the big problem is not the actual chilling, as I've said, it is recording the temperatures every hour.  I guess you could have a chiller with multiple temperature probes, and some form of recording device for each channel (thermometer), but a pen and paper log is much cheaper.  You also need to check periodically that the probe was not touching the surface of the pan, and was in fact centered in the middle of the product being cooled.

[chengkp75]

54 minutes ago, Fogfog said:

 

Interesting.

Is there a large use of Sous Vide on the ships as there is on land based restaurants?

I have a sous vide and cover it while in use because of condensation. I have rinsed the unit once with vinegar (to prevent scale) though with a whole house filter the mineral risk is less of an issue

Clever re the baking soda/salt... and the boiling pt/condensation. In the case of a sous vide it would likely corrode the heater/circulating pump faster (yes?)

I didn't recall what sous vide was, and had to refresh my mind on it.  No, there isn't a lot of use of this, based on the scale of the operation.  A cruise ship galley is not comparable to a fine restaurant kitchen, it is far more similar to a banquet catering kitchen due to the number of meals it serves daily.  It could corrode your sous vide, but unless you are really banging the salt to it, it wouldn't affect it for years perhaps.

 

The bain maries are not used for cooking, unlike the sous vide, they are for keeping food hot.  When food is cooked in the convection/steam ovens or the pressure cookers, they are on "temperature management", meaning that the temperature of the food is well maintained in an enclosed unit, with an accurate temperature control (this applies to the "warming carts" used to keep lots of the food hot during the actual meal service).  Once taken from these temperature control devices, the food is now on "time control" (you'll note a lot of mention of "time control" in the USPH report), which means actual temperature of the food is no longer able to be controlled, so the food must be discarded within 4 hours.  During meal service, the hot food is taken from the ovens or the warming carts and placed in pans on the "plating line", which is a large bain marie.  The hot water in the bain marie (not really a "steam" table) keeps the food hot, but there is no regulation between the heat applied to the water and the food temperature, so it is "time control".  As I say, any food on the plating line after 4 hours must be discarded and cannot be returned to temperature control.  Any food left over that has not been placed on time control, like chicken parts or roasts that have never left the warming carts, can be placed in the blast chiller and brought down to 33-41*F in the required 6 hours and reused within 7 days.

[AmazedByCruising]

15 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

Have you taken a galley tour on the ships?  Have you seen the racks that they have that hold about a dozen pans for roasting chickens, etc?  That kind of rack is what goes into the blast chiller, and each and every tray of food needs to have its temperature checked.  To do this, you need to open the cabinet door, but I guess you could have built in thermometers with probes to put in each pan, but the big problem is not the actual chilling, as I've said, it is recording the temperatures every hour.  I guess you could have a chiller with multiple temperature probes, and some form of recording device for each channel (thermometer), but a pen and paper log is much cheaper.  You also need to check periodically that the probe was not touching the surface of the pan, and was in fact centered in the middle of the product being cooled.

 

OK and thank you once again! I was thinking about the thermometers used by pharmacists that are constantly measuring to see if the medicine stayed within an acceptable temperature range at all time. 

Then again, the temperature of a tiny bottle of medicine will never be that different from the temperature of the box, which is of course quite different from a big pan of food.

 

.  

[K12Guy]

10 hours ago, Arno. said:

Summit just scored a 100!

Congratulations to staff and crew onboard.

 

Just scored a 100 and it's going in to be Revolted in just two days. I'm not sure that's really good planning. But, at least it's not a new ships, so that might help.

 

[K12Guy]

9 hours ago, dodger1964 said:

just curious...why would an open case of wine be a problem??

My thoughts exactly. It can be charged to the premium bottle package, right? 🙂

[cruisestitch]

Bottles of wine are not included in any beverage package.

 

 

[Silkroad]

9 hours ago, vtcruising said:

Also, I just realized that they had just done 3 Press and Trade cruises, with an open bar throughout and had one more after our Dec 1 cruises, which included many execs/VIPs for the naming ceremony.

This is a very good point. The exec/press cruises had unlimited beverages flowing quite freely, per reviewers. It's plausible that the alcohol required for those cruises, along with "new ship issues" could have caused some of the beverage storage problems. They've had a month to get it sorted since the CDC review, so hopefully most of the deficiencies are corrected by now.

[vtcruising]

4 minutes ago, Silkroad said:

This is a very good point. The exec/press cruises had unlimited beverages flowing quite freely, per reviewers. It's plausible that the alcohol required for those cruises, along with "new ship issues" could have caused some of the beverage storage problems. They've had a month to get it sorted since the CDC review, so hopefully most of the deficiencies are corrected by now.

Oh yes, I proudly did my part to help bring their inventory down to a manageable level...😉