Wall Street Journal Article

[NMTraveller]

22 minutes ago, npcl said:

And my comments were specific to the issues on board the plane.

 

 

One can actually avoid the dangers in the airport with social distancing in place.

 

Not sure how you avoid the airport.  Every airport that I have been to has absolutely ZERO social distancing.  How do you avoid the TSA line?  How do you avoid the boarding line?  Not even to mention getting a bite to eat.  How do you avoid the masses in LAX or other large airports?  

 

How do you avoid the baggage handlers touchings your bags?  How do you avoid avoid checking in and the resulting long lines?  How do you avoid the baggage handlers touching your bags when you get off of the plane?  How do you avoid the UBER or taxi driver touching your bags?  Did I mention sharing an elevator with many others?

 

Do you have your private plane? 🙂

 

If you have figured out how to miss 90% of the problem please let us know...

 

For me I will skip the airports when possible.

 

Social distancing on airlines?  LOL!

Edited May 2, 2020 by NMTraveller

[EscapeFromConnecticut]

3 hours ago, livingonthebeach said:

 

Looks like the doctor didn't want to be a whistleblower.  We all know what happens to whistleblowers.  It's a sad situation all around.  Not sure playing the blame game is productive.  The Chinese people as well as all of us around the world are victims, the Chinese Communist Party definitely has a lot of explaining to do!  I fear we will never know the truth.  

Whistleblowers face reprisals only when  unsupervised criminals are running the companies & controlling the regulatory agencies.

Chinese communists???  They're hardly the point - this is about the performance of Arnold Donald, Richard Fain and their boards.
 

 

[Fouremco]

18 minutes ago, livingonthebeach said:

 

I was referring when the doctor was on the ship and not reporting the cases to the ports not the testimony.

Ethically, the doctor was obliged to inform the ports. The modern version of the Hippocratic Oath includes the following undertaking: "I will prevent disease whenever I can, for prevention is preferable to cure." While the doctor might never have sworn the oath, the ethical requirement nevertheless existed for her to do her best to prevent the possible spread of the disease. Whether there was also a legal requirement to report the information remains to be seen. 

[Baron Barracuda]

10 minutes ago, Fouremco said:

Ethically, the doctor was obliged to inform the ports. The modern version of the Hippocratic Oath includes the following undertaking: "I will prevent disease whenever I can, for prevention is preferable to cure." While the doctor might never have sworn the oath, the ethical requirement nevertheless existed for her to do her best to prevent the possible spread of the disease. Whether there was also a legal requirement to report the information remains to be seen. 

Hard to believe doctor was not in constant contact with Princess higher-ups who conceivably instructed her what to tell port authorities.

[livingonthebeach]

17 minutes ago, EscapeFromConnecticut said:

Whistleblowers face reprisals only when  unsupervised criminals are running the companies & controlling the regulatory agencies.

Chinese communists???  They're hardly the point - this is about the performance of Arnold Donald, Richard Fain and their boards.
 

 

 

The Chinese government's decision to withhold and coverup information to the world will have repercussions as well.  This is not a CCL, RCL and NCL pandemic. 

[EscapeFromConnecticut]

On these boards, though, that's just a diversion. 
 

The cruise lines didn't cause this pandemic, but their wretched response to is the appropriate topic here 

[livingonthebeach]

18 minutes ago, Fouremco said:

Ethically, the doctor was obliged to inform the ports. The modern version of the Hippocratic Oath includes the following undertaking: "I will prevent disease whenever I can, for prevention is preferable to cure." While the doctor might never have sworn the oath, the ethical requirement nevertheless existed for her to do her best to prevent the possible spread of the disease. Whether there was also a legal requirement to report the information remains to be seen. 

 

The doctor more than likely took the directive from Corporate.  If this virus never existed and no one knew what it was and how to test it, prior to the time when the Chinese government chose to divulge it to the world, how would a ship doctor have the test kits and the knowledge to report something that was unknown.  The Chinese government reprimanded the doctor who tried to alert the world and who is now dead. The ships have very limited health care facilities and are not advanced trauma or epidemiology centers.

[livingonthebeach]

1 minute ago, EscapeFromConnecticut said:

On these boards, though, that's just a diversion. 
 

The cruise lines didn't cause this pandemic, but their wretched response to is the appropriate topic here 

 

Granted, with 20/20 hindsight, their response could have been better.  The response of some world governments could have been better as well. 

[Fouremco]

1 minute ago, Baron Barracuda said:

Hard to believe doctor was not in constant contact with Princess higher-ups who conceivably instructed her what to tell port authorities.

I agree, I can't see her doing this on her own.

 

[npcl]

1 hour ago, NMTraveller said:

 

Not sure how you avoid the airport.  Every airport that I have been to has absolutely ZERO social distancing.  How do you avoid the TSA line?  How do you avoid the boarding line?  Not even to mention getting a bite to eat.  How do you avoid the masses in LAX or other large airports?  

 

How do you avoid the baggage handlers touchings your bags?  How do you avoid avoid checking in and the resulting long lines?  How do you avoid the baggage handlers touching your bags when you get off of the plane?  How do you avoid the UBER or taxi driver touching your bags?  Did I mention sharing an elevator with many others?

 

Do you have your private plane? 🙂

 

If you have figured out how to miss 90% of the problem please let us know...

 

For me I will skip the airports when possible.

 

Social distancing on airlines?  LOL!

When was the last time you were in an airport?

 

The ones I have been in during the last few months have followed social distancing.  Actually in most cases they have been social ghost towns.  The TSA lines have been distancing.  To be frank I worry about person to person transfer.  Baggage handlers handling the outside of my bags not much of an issue.  Use wipes to wipe them down.  Wash hands after handling them etc.

 

1. Fly in and out of secondary airports where ever possible.  Far shorter lines even during normal times. Far less waiting times.  You also avoid the long TSA lines at the major airports.

 

2. Wear a good quality mask,and glasses

 

3. TSA is following social distancing from what I have seen these days so have airline check in lines (the few that exist). Precheck is handy so is global entry from cutting down on time waiting in lines.

 

4. These days most airports are mostly empty space so not difficult staying away from others.  But even in the old days one could usually find an empty gate to wait until boarding time.

 

5. Do not eat in airports or on the plane.  If one must absolutely eat something take the package and find an empty gate. wash hands immediately before eating.  Use napkins and wipes to touch anything like door knobs, etc.

 

Lots of ways to avoid or at minimize exposure.  Far easier to do it for a couple of hours at an airport than 7 days on a cruise ship.  Today it is very easy because so few are flying.

 

The biggest exposure times would have been at actual time of boarding with the maybe 10 people close to you and the TSA lines if they were serpentine where the lines would walk past each other.  If a straight line not much issue  only those immediately in front and beyond.  But again having precheck cuts down quite a bit.  Using a secondary airport does even more.

 

Not any more exposure than going through check in at a cruise terminal.

Edited May 2, 2020 by npcl

[Fouremco]

15 minutes ago, livingonthebeach said:

 

The Chinese government's decision to withhold and coverup information to the world will have repercussions as well.  This is not a CCL, RCL and NCL pandemic. 

 

5 minutes ago, livingonthebeach said:

 

The doctor more than likely took the directive from Corporate.  If this virus never existed and no one knew what it was and how to test it, prior to the time when the Chinese government chose to divulge it to the world, how would a ship doctor have the test kits and the knowledge to report something that was unknown.  The Chinese government reprimanded the doctor who tried to alert the world and who is now dead. The ships have very limited health care facilities and are not advanced trauma or epidemiology centers.

 

1 minute ago, livingonthebeach said:

 

Granted, with 20/20 hindsight, their response could have been better.  The response of some world governments could have been better as well. 

OK, we get it, the pandemic started in China. However, Cruise Critic and this Celebrity board aren't here to discuss the origin of the coronavirus or what the big bad Chinese officials did or didn't do. Let's stick to the discussion of what Celebrity did in response to the pandemic. 

 

 

 

[NMTraveller]

30 minutes ago, npcl said:

When was the last time you were in an airport?

 

The ones I have been in during the last few months have followed social distancing.  Actually in most cases they have been social ghost towns.  The TSA lines have been distancing.  To be frank I worry about person to person transfer.  Baggage handlers handling the outside of my bags not much of an issue.  Use wipes to wipe them down.  Wash hands after handling them etc.

 

1. Fly in and out of secondary airports where ever possible.  Far shorter lines even during normal times. Far less waiting times.  You also avoid the long TSA lines at the major airports.

 

2. Wear a good quality mask,and glasses

 

3. TSA is following social distancing from what I have seen these days so have airline check in lines (the few that exist). Precheck is handy so is global entry from cutting down on time waiting in lines.

 

4. These days most airports are mostly empty space so not difficult staying away from others.  But even in the old days one could usually find an empty gate to wait until boarding time.

 

5. Do not eat in airports or on the plane.  If one must absolutely eat something take the package and find an empty gate. wash hands immediately before eating.  Use napkins and wipes to touch anything like door knobs, etc.

 

Lots of ways to avoid or at minimize exposure.  Far easier to do it for a couple of hours at an airport than 7 days on a cruise ship.  Today it is very easy because so few are flying.

 

The biggest exposure times would have been at actual time of boarding with the maybe 10 people close to you and the TSA lines if they were serpentine where the lines would walk past each other.  If a straight line not much issue  only those immediately in front and beyond.  But again having precheck cuts down quite a bit.  Using a secondary airport does even more.

 

Not any more exposure than going through check in at a cruise terminal.

 

Airports being a ghost town is much different than what they were when they were spreading the virus...  They are a ghost town because you will get a 14 day quarantine if you have travelled in the last 14 days in our state.

 

We have zero case from cruises in our state.  The rest were from airlines travel.

 

Again ghost towns are socially distancing.  Do you seriously believe that airports will be at 5% of capacity for the long haul?

 

I do have flights in July.  Yet those flights are getting cancelled and reduced.  

 

Ghost towns...

 

Definitely not a normal and productive economy!

 

When I have walked through a cruise terminsl I have gone right through the lines and bypassed 70% of the  dirtiness and grossness of the airports.

 

If I have a choice I will drive to the cruise port and not fly!

 

Now I seriously agree with you on flying out of the secondary airports.  However the primary airports are mostly the hubs.

Edited May 2, 2020 by NMTraveller

[npcl]

7 minutes ago, NMTraveller said:

 

Airports being a ghost town is much different than what they were when they were spreading the virus...  They are a ghost town because you will get a 14 day quarantine if you have travelled in the last 14 days in our state.

 

We have zero case from cruises in our state.  The rest were from airlines travel.

 

Again ghost towns are socially distancing.  Do you seriously believe that airports will be at 5% of capacity for the long haul?

 

I do have flights in July.  Yet those flights are getting cancelled and reduced.  

 

Ghost towns...

 

Definitely not a normal and productive economy!

I believe that airline travel will be severely limited, until such a time as we do not have to worry about the virus (vaccine).  

 

So yes they will remain pretty much ghost towns for several months atleast.

 

Do you personally know everyone that had the virus in your state?  Do you have access to the health service interviews and records? Otherwise it is a bit difficult to make that claim.

[livingonthebeach]

7 minutes ago, Fouremco said:

 

 

OK, we get it, the pandemic started in China. However, Cruise Critic and this Celebrity board aren't here to discuss the origin of the coronavirus or what the big bad Chinese officials did or didn't do. Let's stick to the discussion of what Celebrity did in response to the pandemic. 

 

 

 

 

IIRC, the article in the WSJ was the subject of the thread and not what Celebrity did or didn't do.  🤣🤪We are all entitled to our opinions.  These threads often go OT and that is the spirit of these discussions.  Is it up to a self-proclaimed Celebrity board moderator to decide what we should or should not stick to?  😱

[Pushka]

8 hours ago, ECCruise said:

Very well could be.  But we have no tracing.  And you are right, my "didn't happen ON planes is speculation"

What do the countries that HAVE tracing show?  I have not seen anything but there must be some data.

Australia has had a good tracing system in place from the get go. I have not read of one passenger catching Covid from another passenger, as a result of being on the plane together. And we know that positive Covid passengers have travelled on planes into Australia and also domestically. There are warnings placed about passengers being on ABC flight in specific rows, continually, but no reports of anything coming from these warnings. It all happens on land and sea.  

Edited May 2, 2020 by Pushka

[Pushka]

7 hours ago, WrittenOnYourHeart said:

 

I would think that the fact that working flight attendants and pilots have died of COVID is proof enough that infection CAN happen ON planes.

Unless those same people have not had any other contact from Covid positive people in their social life, then the link isn't proven at all. If testing is not rigorous, and tracing is not done, then links cannot be established. 

[NMTraveller]

4 minutes ago, Pushka said:

Australia has had a good tracing system in place from the get go. I have not read of one passenger catching Covid from another passenger, as a result of being on the plane together. And we know that positive Covid passengers have travelled on planes into Australia and also domestically. There are warnings placed about passengers being on ABC flight in specific rows, continually, but no reports of anything coming from these warnings. It all happens on land and sea.  

 

Yet NYC which is the epicenter of the USA had very few cruise ships if any coming over from Europe during the time.  Yet they had a bunch of airplanes.  I guess it all boils down to 5th grade history.  Diseases are spread by travel.

[Pushka]

6 hours ago, yorky said:

Along with the fact that thousands of people are sitting and eating together at airports for hours before even getting on a plane. The first known cases in Britain were in York from two individuals that had flown in. All forms of transport are of course part of the bigger picture.

The issue is whether people will catch the virus from another passenger whilst on the plane. That is different from passengers who are positive, travelling on a plane and on arrival infecting others on the land. Or cruise. 

[NMTraveller]

11 minutes ago, Pushka said:

The issue is whether people will catch the virus from another passenger whilst on the plane. That is different from passengers who are positive, travelling on a plane and on arrival infecting others on the land. Or cruise. 

 

 

Now my question is 

18 minutes ago, Pushka said:

Australia has had a good tracing system in place from the get go. I have not read of one passenger catching Covid from another passenger, as a result of being on the plane together. And we know that positive Covid passengers have travelled on planes into Australia and also domestically. There are warnings placed about passengers being on ABC flight in specific rows, continually, but no reports of anything coming from these warnings. It all happens on land and sea.  

 

 

So how does the Australian system determine if they caught it on the airplane, or on the cruise, or in the airport?  Unless you have a global system that lists every last person in the world that has been infected and where they have been I do not think that you can tell exactly where they were infected.  If they have been to both a cruise and multiple airports which one was it?

 

 

Edited May 2, 2020 by NMTraveller

[livingonthebeach]

1 minute ago, NMTraveller said:

 

Yet NYC which is the epicenter of the USA had very few cruise ships if any coming over from Europe during the time.  Yet they had a bunch of airplanes.  I guess it all boils down to 5th grade history.  Diseases are spread by travel.

 

Yes, in fact New York Governor, Andrew Cuomo, has said New York infections came from Europe, specifically Northern Italy.  While our infections in Florida were apparently brought here from New York as our Governor stated.  It seems there are two strains -- East Coast and West Coast.  West Coast, it appears, is not as severe and came from Asia. 

[DaveSJ711]

1 hour ago, livingonthebeach said:

 

Yes, in fact New York Governor, Andrew Cuomo, has said New York infections came from Europe, specifically Northern Italy.  While our infections in Florida were apparently brought here from New York as our Governor stated.  It seems there are two strains -- East Coast and West Coast.  West Coast, it appears, is not as severe and came from Asia. 

 

More than 800 people have died from COVID-19 in Washington state.  That figure includes 37 deaths at the Life Care Center in Kirkland (the first epicenter for the outbreak).  So what's the source for your statement that the so-called "West Coast" strain of the virus "is not as severe"?

Edited May 3, 2020 by DaveSJ711

[livingonthebeach]

33 minutes ago, DaveSJ711 said:

 

More than 800 people have died from COVID-19 in Washington state.  That figure includes 37 deaths at the Life Care Center in Kirkland (the first epicenter for the outbreak).  So what's the source for your statement that the so-called "West Coast" strain of the virus "is not as severe"?

 

In Florida we have 1364 deaths so far -- granted our State is more populated than Washington State. I believe it was the two California doctors -- one by the name of Erickson that determined the two strains (by now there are possibly more strains).

[DaveSJ711]

44 minutes ago, livingonthebeach said:

 

In Florida we have 1364 deaths so far -- granted our State is more populated than Washington State. I believe it was the two California doctors -- one by the name of Erickson that determined the two strains (by now there are possibly more strains).

 

Florida's population is almost three times greater than Washington's population.  Measured in fatalities, then, and on a per-capita basis, the outbreak has been far more severe in Washington compared to Florida.

 

Regarding the two Bakersfield, CA doctors, the American College of Emergency Physicians and the American Academy of Emergency Medicine declared that they "emphatically condemn the recent opinions released by Dr. Daniel Erickson and Dr. Artin Messihi.  These reckless and untested musings do not speak for medical societies and are inconsistent with current science and epidemiology regarding COVID-19."  https://calmatters.org/health/2020/04/debunking-bakersfield-doctors-covid-spread-conclusions/

Edited May 3, 2020 by DaveSJ711

[cluso]

4 hours ago, EscapeFromConnecticut said:

Whistleblowers face reprisals only when  unsupervised criminals are running the companies & controlling the regulatory agencies.

 

 

Guess you have never been in the US Armed Forces.  What a broad statement, so many issues today, everywhere.   Hmm...  

[EscapeFromConnecticut]

25 minutes ago, cluso said:

 

Guess you have never been in the US Armed Forces.  What a broad statement, so many issues today, everywhere.   Hmm...  

     Corrupt bosses are corrupt bosses, in or out of uniform ... and that covers FDs, PDs, TSA and the military as well as every civilian business, agency, school and non-profit that exists.

     If honest whistleblowers are getting jammed up for speaking truth, the folks at the top reek - and the oversight system has already rotted out. Very simple principle. What would make anyone of integrity question such an obvious truth?

Edited May 3, 2020 by EscapeFromConnecticut