nomad098 Posted October 25, 2020 #301 Share Posted October 25, 2020 10 hours ago, Billy Baltic said: Agreed. It’s very complex but the people who claim we just need to shield the vulnerable disappear when this is discussed. Within my immediate work group all the people are low risk. All are under 50 years of age and in apparent good health. However, one has a pregnant wife. That makes her vulnerable. Another has a child with asthma. That makes the child vulnerable. Another has a wife who is on immunosuppressants due to severe psoriasis. That makes her vulnerable. So what do the people who subscribe to the GBD say is the solution for these people. Are they suggesting their whole families live in a bubble? Pretty much what these people are doing now. The governments expect people to live in a bubble now Focused protection isn't about locking people away, it's about providing people with the tools to get on with life. For example the government should invest in free N95 for for everyone, N95 masks if they can not procure enough invest in making them, invest and supply simple rapid test kits at places like care homes we are doing it at airports, soldiers are trained in basic first aid use them to fill the gaps in the health service in non medical positions to free up medical staff and there are so many other ways of doing what is necessary. At the moment we isolate the elderly and vulnerable, some people have not seen their relatives in person for over 6 months, others were told to shield with little thought to support, families have been torn apart and forbidden by government to see each other by stay at home orders and lockdowns. If the experts who support the countries present actions are to be believed more people will die because of the lack of medical care than of covid-19 yet offer no solutions. At the moment we have the worst of all worlds we have all the bad things people accuse the GBD of wanting to do with governments investing in ways to slow down and decimate economies under the pretext of saving jobs with no end in sight until a vaccine comes along which always seems to be 3 months away. Talking about the vaccine, the UK has one of if not the best vaccination programs in the world yet with a flu vaccine it is only 75% effective and we only manage to vaccinate 75% of the population which in reality gives us 56.25% coverage nowhere near enough for artificial herd immunity meaning we have around 17000 flu deaths a year. Governments have agreed the covid-19 vaccine only has to be 50% effective meaning it is a 50/50 chance it will work, put this into the UK governments vaccination program and you get a 37.5% coverage, even if you make it compulsory your looking at a maximum coverage of 50%, nobody knows how many deaths we may have to live with year on year or for how long the vulnerable will have to isolate. All vaccines cause side effects and in the case of the flu jab some very serious ones, we are already hearing about side effects from potential covid-19 vaccine with even the developers stating they have a limited understanding on what these vaccines will do to the wider world due to such limited testing and limited testing on vulnerable groups. The GBD if set up correctly could offer a viable alternative with the risks fairly well known and the actions to mitigate understood. But I think the governments have invested so much into the WHO recommendations that they cannot afford for it to fail so have gone out of their way to call some of the top experts in the world fringe scientists and rubbish the idea of the GBD to the public. No governments likes to be proven wrong otherwise they lose the trust of the people. https://www.bmj.com/content/bmj/371/bmj.m4037.full.pdf https://www.bmj.com/content/bmj/371/bmj.m4058.full.pdf 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nomad098 Posted October 25, 2020 #302 Share Posted October 25, 2020 10 minutes ago, Bloodgem said: Try asking Maureen Eames. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-england-south-yorkshire-54632619 Here is a link to her follow up interview: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-england-south-yorkshire-54632619 The problem with the biased BBC is that they have one interviewee like Maureen Eames and 3 against her view. It's funny though that Maureen Eames view resonated better with the UK public than the others. Here in Wales the government is dictating what is and is not an essential item followed by a statement about looking at future lockdowns in the new year https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-what-are-the-essential-items-you-can-still-buy-in-wales-12112959 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-54681885 Cardiff airport owned by the Welsh government is open as are the shops there selling non essential items even when the people are in lockdown "Power corrupts absolute power corrupts absolutely" 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Host Hattie Posted October 25, 2020 #303 Share Posted October 25, 2020 1 hour ago, nomad098 said: Cardiff airport owned by the Welsh government is open as are the shops there selling non essential items even when the people are in lockdown That's not correct Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nomad098 Posted October 25, 2020 #304 Share Posted October 25, 2020 32 minutes ago, Host Hattie said: That's not correct A colleague from Cardiff airport informed me about shops being open last night and thought there would be a media backlash over what was considered essential. I notice the twitter announcement was from today midday not from 6pm Friday when lockdown started. I was 35 minutes behind the news lol. I think the problem comes from not knowing what is essential and what is not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloodgem Posted October 25, 2020 #305 Share Posted October 25, 2020 3 hours ago, nomad098 said: The problem with the biased BBC is that they have one interviewee like Maureen Eames and 3 against her view. It's funny though that Maureen Eames view resonated better with the UK public than the others. Not sure how you can claim the BBC is biased as they when back to interview Maureen, on her own, the day after the vox pop was aired Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nomad098 Posted October 25, 2020 #306 Share Posted October 25, 2020 12 minutes ago, Bloodgem said: Not sure how you can claim the BBC is biased as they when back to interview Maureen, on her own, the day after the vox pop was aired It has been noted by viewers, observers and even the head of the BBC that the BBC has lately had a definite bias in its reporting of social issues and it's choice in programming. The BBC asked Dr Sunetra Gupta not to mention the declaration on The Victoria Derbyshire Show even though this was partly why she was asked to appear. https://www.standard.co.uk/news/health/coronavirus-scientists-at-war-a4569551.html 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloodgem Posted October 25, 2020 #307 Share Posted October 25, 2020 4 hours ago, nomad098 said: The BBC asked Dr Sunetra Gupta not to mention the declaration on The Victoria Derbyshire Show even though this was partly why she was asked to appear. https://www.standard.co.uk/news/health/coronavirus-scientists-at-war-a4569551.html We all know that newspapers always tells the truth and never miss quote people to make the article more interesting. I still remember the Sun's front page which claimed "Freddie Starr ate my hamster" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nomad098 Posted October 25, 2020 #308 Share Posted October 25, 2020 43 minutes ago, Bloodgem said: We all know that newspapers always tells the truth and never miss quote people to make the article more interesting. I still remember the Sun's front page which claimed "Freddie Starr ate my hamster" LOL I remember that one as well Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Reid Posted October 26, 2020 #309 Share Posted October 26, 2020 3 hours ago, Bloodgem said: We all know that newspapers always tells the truth and never miss quote people to make the article more interesting. I still remember the Sun's front page which claimed "Freddie Starr ate my hamster" Wait - are you saying he didn't? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rare broberts Posted October 26, 2020 #310 Share Posted October 26, 2020 3 hours ago, Bloodgem said: We all know that newspapers always tells the truth and never miss quote people to make the article more interesting. I still remember the Sun's front page which claimed "Freddie Starr ate my hamster" Is the Sum really a newspaper? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gc Posted October 26, 2020 #311 Share Posted October 26, 2020 1 hour ago, broberts said: Is the Sum really a newspaper? Tabloid journalism Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
compman9 Posted October 27, 2020 #312 Share Posted October 27, 2020 On 10/22/2020 at 7:38 PM, S.A.M.J.R. said: I think you need to ask, "what qualifies as a pre-existing condition"? Just for example, if you're 10 pounds overweight, does that qualify you? 15? 20? If you have diabetes (controlled)? A weak heart? Is there any stat that shows how many people have pre-existing conditions? 10%? 20%? 50%? You have written, "I think you need to ask" Well, actually no. It is politicians that are killing livelihoods that need to ask, justify and explain why a virus is given such power and prominence in all decision making when any number of diseases, illnesses and accidents cause far more annual deaths but get nowhere near the attention Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crazyank Posted October 27, 2020 #313 Share Posted October 27, 2020 1 hour ago, compman9 said: You have written, "I think you need to ask" Well, actually no. It is politicians that are killing livelihoods that need to ask, justify and explain why a virus is given such power and prominence in all decision making when any number of diseases, illnesses and accidents cause far more annual deaths but get nowhere near the attention Simple answer, this is no longer about disease, it's about politicians maintaining and increasing control. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S.A.M.J.R. Posted October 27, 2020 #314 Share Posted October 27, 2020 6 hours ago, compman9 said: You have written, "I think you need to ask" Well, actually no. It is politicians that are killing livelihoods that need to ask, justify and explain why a virus is given such power and prominence in all decision making when any number of diseases, illnesses and accidents cause far more annual deaths but get nowhere near the attention Well, according to the CDC (source), only Heart Disease and Cancer kill more people in a year (in the US) than Covid has (and we're only ~8 months in). I don't believe Heart Disease and Cancer are communicable. So if you've got facts showing other diseases, illnesses, and accidents cause far more annual deaths, please feel free to share. BTW, Covid is currently listed as causing 231k deaths in the US. Even allowing for some inflation, do you really think 60k deaths have been incorrectly associated with Covid? (According to CDC, accidents would be the next leading cause of death at ~170k). 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rare broberts Posted October 27, 2020 #315 Share Posted October 27, 2020 (edited) 10 hours ago, compman9 said: You have written, "I think you need to ask" Well, actually no. It is politicians that are killing livelihoods that need to ask, justify and explain why a virus is given such power and prominence in all decision making when any number of diseases, illnesses and accidents cause far more annual deaths but get nowhere near the attention Hogwash. No communicable disease kills anywhere near as many Americans in 9 months as COVID-19 has. And that is with current mitigation attempts. Can you imagine how many more Americans would be dead if there had not been any closures? Have you not noticed all the programs and laws designed to eliminate tobacco smoking? Edited October 27, 2020 by broberts 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nomad098 Posted October 27, 2020 #316 Share Posted October 27, 2020 4 hours ago, S.A.M.J.R. said: Well, according to the CDC (source), only Heart Disease and Cancer kill more people in a year (in the US) than Covid has (and we're only ~8 months in). I don't believe Heart Disease and Cancer are communicable. So if you've got facts showing other diseases, illnesses, and accidents cause far more annual deaths, please feel free to share. BTW, Covid is currently listed as causing 231k deaths in the US. Even allowing for some inflation, do you really think 60k deaths have been incorrectly associated with Covid? (According to CDC, accidents would be the next leading cause of death at ~170k). Interesting article that shows that the present figure may not be accurate either way https://eu.usatoday.com/story/news/investigations/2020/04/25/coronavirus-death-toll-hard-track-1-3-death-certificates-wrong/3020778001/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S.A.M.J.R. Posted October 27, 2020 #317 Share Posted October 27, 2020 18 minutes ago, nomad098 said: Interesting article that shows that the present figure may not be accurate either way https://eu.usatoday.com/story/news/investigations/2020/04/25/coronavirus-death-toll-hard-track-1-3-death-certificates-wrong/3020778001/ So first, the last time the article was updated was May. Second, just saying the certificates could be "wrong" says what? There are more Covid deaths than counted? Less? And couldn't that also mean the death certificates for NON covid related deaths (going back years) could be wrong? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
compman9 Posted October 27, 2020 #318 Share Posted October 27, 2020 5 hours ago, S.A.M.J.R. said: Well, according to the CDC (source), only Heart Disease and Cancer kill more people in a year (in the US) than Covid has (and we're only ~8 months in). I don't believe Heart Disease and Cancer are communicable. So if you've got facts showing other diseases, illnesses, and accidents cause far more annual deaths, please feel free to share. BTW, Covid is currently listed as causing 231k deaths in the US. Even allowing for some inflation, do you really think 60k deaths have been incorrectly associated with Covid? (According to CDC, accidents would be the next leading cause of death at ~170k). We're not talking about 8 months ago. We are talking about now. Last week, Covid was the 19th biggest killer in England and the 24th biggest killer in Wales 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
compman9 Posted October 27, 2020 #319 Share Posted October 27, 2020 1 hour ago, broberts said: Hogwash. No communicable disease kills anywhere near as many Americans in 9 months as COVID-19 has. And that is with current mitigation attempts. Can you imagine how many more Americans would be dead if there had not been any closures? Have you not noticed all the programs and laws designed to eliminate tobacco smoking? How is what I rote hogwash? You replied to a completely different post I said it was up to politicians to explain decisions - You, and I do not live in China or Russia. We should always expect our politicians to explain themselves at all times Also, as I wrote to another poster - We are talking about now, not historic figures - What you have written is like saying, Spanish Flu was a bit rough, we should probably stay in doors forever Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nomad098 Posted October 27, 2020 #320 Share Posted October 27, 2020 5 minutes ago, S.A.M.J.R. said: So first, the last time the article was updated was May. Second, just saying the certificates could be "wrong" says what? There are more Covid deaths than counted? Less? And couldn't that also mean the death certificates for NON covid related deaths (going back years) could be wrong? The article points out there was a problem before covid-19 and covid-19 would have exacerbated the issues. There is no way of knowing according to Bob Anderson, chief of the mortality statistics branch at the National Center for Health Statistics it all relies on accurate data coming in and before covid-19 this was a issue. It all comes down to if the problems that existed before covid-19 were resolved when covid-19 started I suspect not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S.A.M.J.R. Posted October 27, 2020 #321 Share Posted October 27, 2020 14 minutes ago, compman9 said: We're not talking about 8 months ago. We are talking about now. Last week, Covid was the 19th biggest killer in England and the 24th biggest killer in Wales So you only want to look at a certain time? lol OK. All of those who died before last week don't matter? All of those who died after last week don't matter? How about we look at how many people died from Covid in 2019. That works, doesn't it? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S.A.M.J.R. Posted October 27, 2020 #322 Share Posted October 27, 2020 2 minutes ago, nomad098 said: The article points out there was a problem before covid-19 and covid-19 would have exacerbated the issues. There is no way of knowing according to Bob Anderson, chief of the mortality statistics branch at the National Center for Health Statistics it all relies on accurate data coming in and before covid-19 this was a issue. It all comes down to if the problems that existed before covid-19 were resolved when covid-19 started I suspect not. I think it says covid COULD exacerbate the issue. But if you want to assume 1/3 of death certificates are wrong, then I don't know that you can compare covid to anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
compman9 Posted October 28, 2020 #323 Share Posted October 28, 2020 11 hours ago, S.A.M.J.R. said: So you only want to look at a certain time? lol OK. All of those who died before last week don't matter? All of those who died after last week don't matter? How about we look at how many people died from Covid in 2019. That works, doesn't it? Don't be ridiculous, I said nothing of the sort, and you know it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S.A.M.J.R. Posted October 28, 2020 #324 Share Posted October 28, 2020 (edited) 6 hours ago, compman9 said: Don't be ridiculous, I said nothing of the sort, and you know it You said you only want to look at a certain week (or is it a day?) and how Covid deaths compare to other deaths. Since you want to selectively look at time ranges, let's look at all of 2019. No one died with Covid, right? There, it's over. ETA: Do you want to provide a source for your data or should we take your word for it? Edited October 28, 2020 by S.A.M.J.R. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnjen Posted October 28, 2020 #325 Share Posted October 28, 2020 On 10/23/2020 at 12:10 PM, yogimax said: I see you are from Virginia. Do you think 170,000 cases and 3524 deaths are as "overrated" as the need to wear masks. Ah, never mind, if you think wearing a mask is "silly and "overrated," you will not believe any of the horrid facts of COVID. I see you're from NEW YAWK.......wearing masks (and thinking it prevents coronavirus) is foolish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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