Viking Expeditions Thread

[TayanaLorna]

6 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

 

Far be it from me to disagree about praise for the engine staff, but we are not miracle workers.  While many "jury-rigged" things can be made in emergencies, and while a lot of structural and piping repairs can be simply done, we cannot, for instance fabricate a piston or crankshaft for an engine.

We always carried a healthy supply of duct tape on our cruising sailboat as well as spare parts for everything we could think of or afford.

[Jacqueline]

I am still waiting to hear how anyone thinks that it is responsible to offer kayak excursions in the Antarctic. And how the magical ICU on the Viking ship will save them. 
Hearing all the “expert” apologists on this thread defending a ship that couldn’t make it thru it’s first season without a fatality is a thought worth pondering. 
If the Hanseatic is “the same” how has it managed all these decades without a similar incident? 
Just google rouge waves and Drakes passage crossing to see how common these seas are. This isn’t Disney land.

[chengkp75]

4 minutes ago, Jacqueline said:

Hearing all the “expert” apologists on this thread defending a ship that couldn’t make it thru it’s first season without a fatality is a thought worth pondering. 

Did the Hanseatic ever get hit by a rogue wave?  Was the Hanseatic alongside the Polaris when the wave hit the Polaris?  As I've said, from 46 years at sea, unless you have two ships in the same location, at the same time, heading in the same direction and speed, you cannot say how the two ships would perform compared to each other.  Why does the NHTSA use identical tests to compare car safety?  Because that is the only way to do it scientifically, rather than emotionally.

[TayanaLorna]

3 minutes ago, Jacqueline said:

I am still waiting to hear how anyone thinks that it is responsible to offer kayak excursions in the Antarctic. And how the magical ICU on the Viking ship will save them. 
Hearing all the “expert” apologists on this thread defending a ship that couldn’t make it thru it’s first season without a fatality is a thought worth pondering. 
If the Hanseatic is “the same” how has it managed all these decades without a similar incident? 
Just google rouge waves and Drakes passage crossing to see how common these seas are. This isn’t Disney land.

Kayak excursions are offered in Patagonia, Iceland, Norway, the Arctic by many cruise lines.  There may not be ice floes but the water still is darn cold.  It's the responsibility of the passenger to assess their skill and ability to undertake such an excursion.  Having been a canoe camper, we never swamped our canoe filled with gear.  However at my age I will not canoe or kayak unless the waters are tropical and I can swim in them comfortably.  

[Turtles06]

41 minutes ago, Jacqueline said:

I am still waiting to hear how anyone thinks that it is responsible to offer kayak excursions in the Antarctic.

 

I'm not sure what that has to do with the tragedy in this case.  

 

In any event, and while I can't speak as to other companies, Lindblad/Nat Geo have been offering kayaking on its Antarctic expeditions for many years (I kayaked off the Nat Geo Explorer in 2013), but only when the conditions are right.  Here's a recent article by someone who kayaked in 2022: 

 

 "To kayak on an Antarctica expedition cruise requires the right conditions. The ship has to find a protected bay where the waters are calm, the wind mild and the surroundings safe."

 

https://thepointsguy.com/news/antarctica-kayak-expedition-lindblad-cruise/

 

Edited December 4, 2022 by Turtles06

[TrulyBlonde]

30 minutes ago, Turtles06 said:

 

I'm not sure what that has to do with the tragedy in this case.  

 

In any event, and while I can't speak as to other companies, Lindblad/Nat Geo have been offering kayaking on its Antarctic expeditions for many years (I kayaked off the Nat Geo Explorer in 2013), but only when the conditions are right.  Here's a recent article by someone who kayaked in 2022: 

 

 "To kayak on an Antarctica expedition cruise requires the right conditions. The ship has to find a protected bay where the waters are calm, the wind mild and the surroundings safe."

 

https://thepointsguy.com/news/antarctica-kayak-expedition-lindblad-cruise/

 

Do they offer drysuits? I have kayaked quite a bit and had a Summer lake home in the Adirondacks. I would think that a drysuit would be prudent in those icy waters. Falling into those icy waters could lead to a quick death. We would wear ours when waterskiing and kayaking early Spring.

[BobCatter]

7 minutes ago, TrulyBlonde said:

Do they offer drysuits? I have kayaked quite a bit and had a Summer lake home in the Adirondacks. I would think that a drysuit would be prudent in those icy waters. Falling into those icy waters could lead to a quick death. We would wear ours when waterskiing and kayaking early Spring.

 

No drysuits. The kayaks are amazingly stable, and at least in Lindblad's case, they only do kayaking when it is flat calm in a protected area. If a person is physically able to get in and out of the kayak, it very safe.

Edited December 4, 2022 by BobCatter

[TrulyBlonde]

8 minutes ago, BobCatter said:

 

No drysuits. The kayaks are amazingly stable, and at least in Lindblad's case, they only do kayaking when it is flat calm in a protected area. If a person is physically able to get in and out of the kayak, it very safe.

Safe until......I would hope anybody planning on kayaking in frigid waters would read what I posted about drysuits. I am a very experienced kayaker & things happen out there. What if a whale or seal surfaces in those calm waters and topples it? I am just providing info that I think is very important when considering one of these kayak tours for your average Joe. 🙂

[Iloveketo]

38 minutes ago, TrulyBlonde said:

Do they offer drysuits? I have kayaked quite a bit and had a Summer lake home in the Adirondacks. I would think that a drysuit would be prudent in those icy waters. Falling into those icy waters could lead to a quick death. We would wear ours when waterskiing and kayaking early Spring.

We went on the Octantis for it’s first cruise in Georgian Bay and Lake Superior last May. We were supposed to go kayaking and they did provide what I believe was a dry suit (not a wetsuit)with boots as the water in the Great Lakes in May is very cold. I unfortunately hurt my knee prior to the kayaking excursion and didn’t feel able to go from the RIB to the kayak. 

[Newleno]

16 hours ago, Jacqueline said:

When we decided to go to Antarctica, we selected Hapag Lloyd’s Hanseatic for our voyage (been sold to Heritage cruises). With over 150 successful trips 
When it came time to go to the approved landing sights were were able to see more and take advantage of the expertise of the captain in securing an additional landing. We crunched thru the ice in the Wendell sea.

We toured the engine room where some of the people have been working together for decades and said that they could manufacture anything that they needed onboard to repair or replace the engine and associated mechanical parts. 
Many of the ships that have been doing this for decades were icebreakers in another life and constructed to those standards,

The same season we sailed, the refurbished Silversea ship didn’t make it out of the harbour. There is no intensive care at sea. Any accident can have serious consequences. 

Yes same thing with my ship got the tour, they said they could make anything they needed, so comforting the experience.  Experience of ship personnel matters, I know some  prefer certifications (which can be political).  I like good old fashioned experience.

[Heidi13]

3 hours ago, Jacqueline said:

I am still waiting to hear how anyone thinks that it is responsible to offer kayak excursions in the Antarctic. And how the magical ICU on the Viking ship will save them. 
Hearing all the “expert” apologists on this thread defending a ship that couldn’t make it thru it’s first season without a fatality is a thought worth pondering. 
If the Hanseatic is “the same” how has it managed all these decades without a similar incident? 
Just google rouge waves and Drakes passage crossing to see how common these seas are. This isn’t Disney land.

 

In addition to visiting the Viking Medical Centre, we also enjoyed a couple of dinners with the extremely well qualified and experienced Emergency Physician, who has been the head of Trauma in a number of major Trauma Centres in UK, Italy and USA. DW was also a Trauma RN at our local Regional Trauma Centre and was impressed by the facilities and the doctors experience.

 

During the 70's and 80's, when I worked on cruise ships, our Medical Centre, which didn't have the modern equipment available today, has managed to revive and stabalise a number of pax, at times for up to 4 or 5 days. So yes, I have experience where shipboard medical care is effective.

 

Rather than making comments such as the, "Magical ICU on the Viking ship" please provide us some of your personal experiences to justify your statement. Have you actually sailed on a Viking ship and witnessed the Medical Centre.

 

With respect to Rogue Waves, since I assume you have researched the term, you should have learned that while they aren't too rare, they are short lived, so are still considered to NOT be a common experience for vessels. They can also develop quickly and dissipate just as quick. Therefore, 2 ships sailing close to each other may not experience the same wave.

 

As the Chief noted, the only scientific method to compare different ships ability to handle a rogue wave is to place them in exactly the same spot at the same time, which isn't possible.

 

The Hanseatic, now Heritage Adventurer was Classed by GL with Ice Class E4, which is the equivalent of the Finland/Sweden Baltic Class 1A Super. Since the inception of the IMO Polar Code and the standardised ice classification, Class 1A Super is now PC6, which is consistent with the Viking Octantis and Polaris. Therefore, your preferred vessel does have the same ice class as the Viking ships. 

 

Similar to the Chief, I have about 40 yrs at sea and while I have experience some horrendous seas and storms, I was fortunate to never have experienced a rogue wave. I don't believe the Chief experienced a rogue wave either, so with a combined 90 years at sea we haven't experienced rogue waves, which is further proof of the frequency of them interacting with ships.

 

Personally, I only know of 1 mariner that has experienced one and that was a black hulled cruise ship in 1995.

 

 

 

[chengkp75]

21 minutes ago, Heidi13 said:

I don't believe the Chief experienced a rogue wave either

At the time it happened, "rogue waves" were considered to be "old salt's tales", and I was not on the bridge at the time.  The bridge watch described it as two 15 meter seas hitting the ship from different directions at the same time.  Was this a rogue wave?  Can't say.  I will say that it stopped a RO/RO cargo ship doing 10 knots dead in the water.  It lifted the stern out of the water, and tripped the starboard engine on overspeed as the propeller came out of the water.  It also fractured a salt water cooling line in the bow thruster space.  This was in the North Atlantic in winter.  Busy night for the engineers.

[sippican]

On 12/3/2022 at 5:10 PM, Heidi13 said:

 

Sorry, but this is another incorrect assumption.

 

The IMO Polar Code Chapter 12 requires specific training for all Masters and Deck Officers navigating in polar regions. This requirement was also incorporated into the STCW Code.

 

The Viking Masters and Deck Officers may be new to the Viking ships, but they have the required experience and training to operate in these waters.

 

Thank you for setting me straight - again! So are you contending that part of the Polar Code training is extensive active training on site in the polar regions. Of course, you cannot possibly contend that training equates to experience? Kind of like putting a well-trained med student right out of the classroom into the operating room.

[sippican]

7 hours ago, Heidi13 said:

 

Yes, with everything else equal, a vessel with a deeper draught will be constrained before a shallower draught vessel. However, as I posted previously, any minimum under-keel clearance included in the Safety Management System is another key factor, especially if some companies provide guidance to the Masters and others don't.

 

I knew the waters I sailed in extremely well, but I was still limited by the guidelines issued by the company. In these days of risk management and human factors, ship safety is much more involved than local knowledge.

 

Geez I've really messed up today with the Viking fans. 

Whatever it may be called, their ships are notorious for being unable to navigate low waters in the European rivers, while most other companies continue sailing. I guess I was given the incorrect reason for that - basically, I was told they sit lower in the water, closer to the bottom (is that clear enough). I will apologize for not knowing the correct rems.

 

If you follow the river cruise boards during times of low waters, (and even flooding), perhaps you can enlighten ,me as to why this might be. There are tons of very upset Viking cruisers when this happens, especially when they sit in hotels and on buses, watching other ships sail by.

Edited December 4, 2022 by sippican

[Heidi13]

34 minutes ago, sippican said:

 

Thank you for setting me straight - again! So are you contending that part of the Polar Code training is extensive active training on site in the polar regions. Of course, you cannot possibly contend that training equates to experience? Kind of like putting a well-trained med student right out of the classroom into the operating room.

 

Sorry, but have to set you straight yet again.

 

At no time did I state the training is onsite, that is mentoring of Junior Officers by Senior Officers and also mentoring of Senior Officers by the Master. Training is Govt regulated, in accordance with STCW, and takes place in shoreside marine training institutes, which have the latest full ship simulator technology.

 

As with all certification in the marine industry, it requires a combination of training and experience in the relevant waters. Everyone has to start somewhere, so to serve as a watchkeeping officer in polar waters they must first have a Certificate of Competency, which can take 2 - 3 yrs, and then attend a basic polar training course, which comprises classroom and simulator training. This basic level of certification would enable the officer to serve as a Junior Watchkeeping Officer in a pax v/l, who is continuously monitored and mentored by the Senior OOW.

 

Once they attain the required seatime, they can attend the advanced polar training, which again is a combination of classroom and simulator training. Only after completing this course can they sail as a Senior Watchkeeping Officer, and by then they should have at least 5 to 6 yrs at sea. It can take a further 10 yrs experience to reach Master.

 

The Polaris Master, who I won't name, is new to Viking, but has commanded small expedition vessels for almost 10 years, and has extensive experience in the Arctic and Antarctica. Although I haven't seen her bio, I recall reading that she also has experience as a pilot in ice.

 

Hardly lacking in experience.

[Vagabond51]

I'm under the belief that for every pound of mass above the water line there is 5 to 7 pounds below the water line. Regardless of the distance between the water line and keel tip I would assume that mass ratio and distribution would have more of a bearing on how a hull responds to an event such as this than the distance (draft). A year from now unfortunately it will be forgotten. The desire of those with means will always push the envelope. I lived in the cruise port of Juneau for 35 years. In that time at least 60 people perished in small aircraft off those ships on their way to salmon bakes on the glacier shores. Still, thousands climb into those planes yearly. 

 

[AussieBoyTX]

Additional information from passengers who were on the initial Zodiac, describing the "explosion" and subsequent return to Ushuaia:

 

As she was holding onto a rope attached to the boat with one hand and taking cell phone video of penguins with the other, she said, a "pretty significant explosion" took place beneath the floor between the front two passengers.

The woman sitting directly across from Trusdale took the brunt of the impact, suffering a badly broken leg.

Another passenger on that side was thrown from the boat.

Pam Trusdale managed to hold onto her phone. She and her husband crossed over to the other side and helped to stop the boat. Tom Trusdale, another male passenger and the Zodiac pilot pulled the man back into the Zodiac on his back, Pam Trusdale said.

 

Full Article: https://www.cjonline.com/story/news/local/2022/12/04/viking-polaris-cruise-accident-wave-antarctic-trip-topeka-passengers/69695346007/

[Heidi13]

35 minutes ago, Vagabond51 said:

I'm under the belief that for every pound of mass above the water line there is 5 to 7 pounds below the water line. Regardless of the distance between the water line and keel tip I would assume that mass ratio and distribution would have more of a bearing on how a hull responds to an event such as this than the distance (draft). A year from now unfortunately it will be forgotten. The desire of those with means will always push the envelope. I lived in the cruise port of Juneau for 35 years. In that time at least 60 people perished in small aircraft off those ships on their way to salmon bakes on the glacier shores. Still, thousands climb into those planes yearly. 

 

 

Transverse stability is a rather complex subject that we learned over many years, but you are reasonably accurate. I'll try to provide a Coles Notes summary of transverse stability.

 

Basically, weight low in the ship is good, which is why the heavy stuff is low in the ship - machinery, bunkers, ballast, etc.

 

Weight high in the ship is not so good, for example pools. To provide an example, after a long ocean passage at high speed, when getting low on bunkers, we occasionally had to dump 1 or more of the pools to maintain acceptable stability, a day prior to arrival.

 

The ship's Centre of Gravity is determined at lightship and then all subsequent weights are added/subtracted to determine the CoG at any time. Adding bunkers below the CoG lowers the CoG, whereas filling pools above the CoG, raises the height of the CoG. The height of the CoG is measured as the vertical distance above the keel, and is called KG. We used to do these calculations manually, but now everything is entered into a computer.

 

The Centre of Buoyancy is in a vertical line with the CoG when the ship is upright. When the ship lists, the CoB moves off the ship's centre line. A vertical line drawn through the CoB intersects the ship's centre line at a location called the metacentre, designated as M. Hopefully the metacentre is above the CoG, with the distance between them known as metacentric height, or GM. The size of GM determines how much righting level is generated to bring the ship back upright. A bigger GM provides a larger righting lever.

 

When the GM is large, the large righting lever brings the ship back upright rapidly, often referred as snaps back. This is not prefered on cruise ships, as while the ship may not roll as much, it is very uncomfortable as it snaps back upright. I experienced this once on a cargo ship in the North Sea after loading steel in the lower hold. Our GM was huge and the ride to the next loading port was extremely uncomfortable.

 

A smaller GM results in a lower righting lever, which returns the ship upright more smoothly. While the ship may roll more it is a much gentler roll, which can be minimised by the fins.

 

When the metacentre is above the CoG the ship has positive stability, with the righting lever returning the ship upright. When the CoG and M are the same position, the ship has no righting lever, so if it lists, it remains at an angle of loll. If the M is below the CoG that is rather bad.

 

Lots of other factors are involved, including draft, beam, etc. but the adding and specifically the placement of weights on a ship plays a huge roll in stability and how the ship rides.

[Host Jazzbeau]

I want to thank all you sailors for setting us landlubbers straight.  I understand why precise terminology is important to you.  Please be understanding that we often don't know those correct terms.  🤝

[chengkp75]

9 hours ago, Heidi13 said:

Training is Govt regulated, in accordance with STCW, and takes place in shoreside marine training institutes, which have the latest full ship simulator technology.

Andy, I did a quick read on the training requirements for the Polar Code last night, and I thought I saw that 2 or 4 (can't remember which) of operational experience in polar waters was required for certification.

[pontac]

Absolutely nothing to do with the accidents discussed in the above posts.

 

After viewing the video over the weekend on Viking TV on the Great Lakes Collection that we were booked on in September (from Duluth to Toronto on Octantis) we realised that we were not fit enough anymore to undertake kayak trips and treks through wilderness.

 

So we have changed it to another river cruise. Viking charge loss of deposit for cancellation more than 70 days before the trip, but only a £100 admin fee to change one cruise to another, and I was pleased and surprised that there was no problem in doing so and they were so pleasant about it.

 

Enjoy your expeditions, everyone, and note there's now a cabin freed up on the Octantis due to sail on 12 Sep 23 from Duluth via Toronto and down to the Antarctic.

[chengkp75]

11 hours ago, AussieBoyTX said:

"pretty significant explosion" took place beneath the floor between the front two passengers.

Andy, diverting to the Zodiac incident, this sounds like it was something under the deck, where are the fuel tanks located?  Could a combination of fuel leak and non-functioning bilge blower have resulted in an explosion?  No real experience with RHIBs, so just speculating.

[chengkp75]

16 hours ago, Newleno said:

Yes same thing with my ship got the tour, they said they could make anything they needed, so comforting the experience.

And, another example of PR for the passengers.  Marine engineers live by the old US Navy SeaBee slogan "the difficult we do immediately, the impossible takes a little longer".  The engineers will try their darndest to fix anything that breaks, but there are some things that require a part that cannot be fabricated onboard.  We come up with "innovative" "outside the box" or just plain "nuts" solutions that work, but I can guarantee that there could be situations on both of these expedition ships that the engineers could not repair, only patch until port.

 

And, I've worked many years on the same ship, in fact taking it from the builder's yard, so I knew everything about that ship, and there were things we couldn't do.

Edited December 5, 2022 by chengkp75

[AussieBoyTX]

20 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

Andy, diverting to the Zodiac incident, this sounds like it was something under the deck, where are the fuel tanks located?  Could a combination of fuel leak and non-functioning bilge blower have resulted in an explosion?  No real experience with RHIBs, so just speculating.

 

Every Zodiac I've been on either has a rigid fuel tank or a fuel bladder in the five gallon +/- range in the back of the RHIB by the pilot and outboard motor -- pretty much like any outboard motorboat. There's not much flooring and no bilge per se.

Aside from the unlikely location, the incident description reads like the Zodiac's hull and floor integrity was maintained, so I wonder if the "explosion" came from something underneath or outside the boat. 

[Heidi13]

6 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

Andy, I did a quick read on the training requirements for the Polar Code last night, and I thought I saw that 2 or 4 (can't remember which) of operational experience in polar waters was required for certification.

 

Chief - When I read the Polar Code I recall a minimum 2 months seatime in polar waters.

 

The Basic Training Course has no pre-requisite seatime in Polar Regions, but they still require a minimum of Bridge Watchman CoC, which has seatime requirements. However, with a Basic Certificate, they will only get a JOOW position on a cruise ship, so never left alone on the Bridge.

 

To apply for the Advanced Training, they require the Basic Training plus at least 2 months of watchkeeping seatime in polar regions. Once they pass the Advanced Course, they are eligible for a SOOW position, but this promotion is only possible when they have sufficient additional seatime to take and pass the Chief Mate. Even with the Advanced Polar Training, they won't be eligible for promotion to SOOW until they have the Chief Mate.

 

I've avoided sailing in ice, as I prefer the tropics, but when the ship is in active ice, I expect the Master is on the Bridge and they will most likely be condition "Red". Therefore, all officers are being continuously mentored when in ice.

 

The other consideration is the Polaris incident was not in ice, but heavy weather, and all seatime from our first day at sea starts preparing us for dealing with these situations. Yes, Drake Passage can be rough, but as we have experienced, many other parts of the Southern Ocean in the "Roaring Forties" are also rough, and in addition, many other oceans and seas can be just as bad - in addition to the obvious ones, I can think of a few I have experienced - North Sea, Hecate Strait, Cook Strait, Tasman Sea and Bass Straight.