New CDC guidelines released 5/5/21

[chengkp75]

2 minutes ago, ipeeinthepool said:

 

Hospitals are different.  They had to act and could not wait for the CDC.   you talked about "the CDC giving "recommendations" to many industries"   Many industries are more than just hospitals and all of these other industries are being held hostage by the CDC the resulting criticism and lawsuits.

And you think that all of the industries that are meeting CDC recommendations, since there is no jurisdiction, or meeting state CDC requirements, waited for instructions on how to continue their businesses?  You think they all threw up their hands and said "tell us how to run our business"?  Do you think that every meat packing plant or other industry where workers are shoulder to shoulder, waited for the CDC to tell them how to mitigate covid in their plants?  Really?

[ipeeinthepool]

4 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

And you think that all of the industries that are meeting CDC recommendations, since there is no jurisdiction, or meeting state CDC requirements, waited for instructions on how to continue their businesses?  You think they all threw up their hands and said "tell us how to run our business"?  Do you think that every meat packing plant or other industry where workers are shoulder to shoulder, waited for the CDC to tell them how to mitigate covid in their plants?  Really?

 

Nope, but meat packing plants and manufacturing facilities are a lot different than companies that deal directly with customers.  However I'll bet those meat packing plants have a lot of procedures and restrictions based on CDC regulations that make no sense because the CDC doesn't have expertise in these areas.  The meat packing plants are likely less efficient than they could be and the price is paid by the customer.

[ECCruise]

4 minutes ago, ipeeinthepool said:

 

Nope, but meat packing plants and manufacturing facilities are a lot different than companies that deal directly with customers.  However I'll bet those meat packing plants have a lot of procedures and restrictions based on CDC regulations that make no sense because the CDC doesn't have expertise in these areas.  The meat packing plants are likely less efficient than they could be and the price is paid by the customer.

Thanks but I would prefer that the workers in such plants have better access to healthy conditions than making assumptions on "regulations that make no sense" or "less efficient." 

 

And as if those savings, if there were any, would be passed through to the consumer. 

[K.T.B.]

23 minutes ago, harkinmr said:

Fauci did not say the CDC will soon issue relaxed mask guidance.  Fauci is an adviser to the President, not a member of the CDC.  He did say this morning that he believes that indoor mask guidance should be relaxed for situations where all persons are vaccinated, but he did not expand on the exact types of situations where that might apply.  I think there could be relaxation of "some" of the mask guidance for cruise ships depending upon a vaccination commitment from the individual cruise lines and their proposed plan for operations.  

 

And what Fauci said was that people may decide to wear masks seasonally after the coronavirus pandemic.

[K.T.B.]

10 minutes ago, ipeeinthepool said:

 

Nope, but meat packing plants and manufacturing facilities are a lot different than companies that deal directly with customers.  However I'll bet those meat packing plants have a lot of procedures and restrictions based on CDC regulations that make no sense because the CDC doesn't have expertise in these areas.  The meat packing plants are likely less efficient than they could be and the price is paid by the customer.

 

I don't think the CDC has much to say about meat packing.  Food Safety Inspection Service does, however, which is part of the FDA, as does OSHA.  Because of Covid, the CDC has become more involved in a lot of aspects where health is concerned, so who the hell knows any more?

[nocl]

25 minutes ago, ipeeinthepool said:

 

No on would be sailing outside of the US if they had to follow the CDC rules.

apparently your statement about concern over being sued has not stopped them 

[nocl]

14 minutes ago, ipeeinthepool said:

 

Nope, but meat packing plants and manufacturing facilities are a lot different than companies that deal directly with customers.  However I'll bet those meat packing plants have a lot of procedures and restrictions based on CDC regulations that make no sense because the CDC doesn't have expertise in these areas.  The meat packing plants are likely less efficient than they could be and the price is paid by the customer.

actually the meet packing plant requirement would come from state inspectors. While those requirements are probably based upon CDC recommendations, would involve people that certainly have a lot of day to day experience in the industry and inspecting it.

 

There is a second layer of Federal inspectors though unlike the state inspectors visit an individual plant rarely.

[nocl]

6 minutes ago, K.T.B. said:

 

I don't think the CDC has much to say about meat packing.  Food Safety Inspection Service does, however, which is part of the FDA, as does OSHA.  Because of Covid, the CDC has become more involved in a lot of aspects where health is concerned, so who the hell knows any more?

Do not forget the state inspectors which are far more involved in day to say operations then the feds.

[ipeeinthepool]

11 minutes ago, nocl said:

actually the meet packing plant requirement would come from state inspectors. While those requirements are probably based upon CDC recommendations, would involve people that certainly have a lot of day to day experience in the industry and inspecting it.

 

There is a second layer of Federal inspectors though unlike the state inspectors visit an individual plant rarely.

 

Maybe, but that hasn't stopped the CDC from releasing guidelines and procedures.

 

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/php/meat-processing-assessment-tool.html

[nocl]

Just now, ipeeinthepool said:

 

Maybe, but that hasn't stopped the CDC from releasing guidelines and procedures.

 

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/php/meat-processing-assessment-tool.html

Probably developed in conjunction with the department of the agency that does the inspections as guidance to state agencies that deal with the day to day operations.

[ipeeinthepool]

7 minutes ago, nocl said:

Probably developed in conjunction with the department of the agency that does the inspections as guidance to state agencies that deal with the day to day operations.

 

Probably?  sure

[chengkp75]

1 hour ago, ipeeinthepool said:

 

Nope, but meat packing plants and manufacturing facilities are a lot different than companies that deal directly with customers.  However I'll bet those meat packing plants have a lot of procedures and restrictions based on CDC regulations that make no sense because the CDC doesn't have expertise in these areas.  The meat packing plants are likely less efficient than they could be and the price is paid by the customer.

Okay, you want to cherry pick industries?  How about WalMart or Holiday Inn.  Did each of the major retail chains or hotel chains wait until the CDC came out with instructions?  No, they came up with their own action plans, and I would bet that a lot of stores in each chain have the ability within their company guidelines to alter the action plan based on the local situation.

 

But to get back to the meat packers (who had some of the highest infection rates of any industry in the US), you really think that big agra would put up with a less than maximum efficiency?  Something that would maximize profits?  And, I guess that there are a lot of requirements that don't make sense to you, but which may make a lot of sense from an epidemiological view.  I guess we should throw out all the FDA inspections and regulations because they don't make sense to you.

[Gracie115]

1 hour ago, charliesdad63 said:

The cruising industry has a bias of making money for its stockholders. They need to get bodies back on board to consume product offerings and they want to do it as quickly as possible. The CDC is holding them accountable to ensure passenger safety is the number one priority over revenue. 

 

The overall vibe from this whole discussion is that the CDC is the 'evil' one that is setting up parameters to exceed that threshold of risk that it will take to ensure both stockholder and passenger needs are met.

Every industry has a bias for making money for it's stockholders.  Of course they want to get bodies back on board.  Just like restaurants, hotels, sports venues, etc etc etc have wanted to open.  But cruise ships are being held to a different standard because of what happened 14 months ago when no one in the world knew what we were dealing with.  

 

The CDC, who my DH has worked together with his entire career, is overreaching here and setting up parameters that indicate they want ZERO risk on cruise ships..  My impression, my opinion, doesn't matter who agrees or who doesn't.

[ipeeinthepool]

6 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

Okay, you want to cherry pick industries?  How about WalMart or Holiday Inn.  Did each of the major retail chains or hotel chains wait until the CDC came out with instructions?  No, they came up with their own action plans, and I would bet that a lot of stores in each chain have the ability within their company guidelines to alter the action plan based on the local situation.

 

 

That's exactly the point.  Businesses that don't have the CDC breathing over their shoulder can develop their own plans.  As you noted, the CDC really isn't the expert in any of these fields.  Maybe the CDC should step aside, not issue guidelines and let the cruise lines develop their own plans.  A lot more people have possible Covid exposure at Walmart than all of the cruise lines put together.

[ECCruise]

11 minutes ago, Gracie115 said:

 

 

The CDC, who my DH has worked together with his entire career, is overreaching here and setting up parameters that indicate they want ZERO risk on cruise ships..  My impression, my opinion, doesn't matter who agrees or who doesn't.

Not true.

These are exactly their words in the CSO:

CDC acknowledges that it is not possible for cruising to be a zero-risk activity for spread of COVID-19.

[markeb]

1 hour ago, ipeeinthepool said:

 

Nope, but meat packing plants and manufacturing facilities are a lot different than companies that deal directly with customers.  However I'll bet those meat packing plants have a lot of procedures and restrictions based on CDC regulations that make no sense because the CDC doesn't have expertise in these areas.  The meat packing plants are likely less efficient than they could be and the price is paid by the customer.

Nope.
 

The plants are regulated by the USDA, not HHS. They’re the poster child for exactly what we’re all saying. There are standards from the USDA, and in plant inspections, but the actual operations are based on industry developed Current Good Manufacturing Practices. Broad regulatory guidance and industry developed best practices, customized by the industry to each plant. Pretty much the same in the pharmaceutical industry. And exactly what the cruise lines are being asked to do. It’s not rocket science. 
 

It’s been that way since the Reagan administration. Cut government red tape?  Don’t over specify regulatory requirements? That philosophy is over forty years old. 
 

I find it interesting that the cruise industry is no longer complaining they don’t have enough guidance. There’s some they don’t like, but they don’t want more. Only posters on cruise critic think there needs to be more specifics. 

[ipeeinthepool]

4 minutes ago, ECCruise said:

Not true.

These are exactly their words in the CSO:

CDC acknowledges that it is not possible for cruising to be a zero-risk activity for spread of COVID-19.

 

Now if there policies and regulations reflected this reality, then we would be making progress.

[K.T.B.]

14 minutes ago, ipeeinthepool said:

 

 

That's exactly the point.  Businesses that don't have the CDC breathing over their shoulder can develop their own plans.  As you noted, the CDC really isn't the expert in any of these fields.  Maybe the CDC should step aside, not issue guidelines and let the cruise lines develop their own plans.  A lot more people have possible Covid exposure at Walmart than all of the cruise lines put together.

 

Which they did for the European and Mediterranean cruises.  It's been mentioned before, but it's worth mentioning again:  400,000+ passengers, only 50 cases of Covid.  PRE-vaccine.

[ipeeinthepool]

1 minute ago, K.T.B. said:

 

Which they did for the European and Mediterranean cruises.  It's been mentioned before, but it's worth mentioning again:  400,000+ passengers, only 50 cases of Covid.  PRE-vaccine.

 

Please don't confuse this discussion with facts. 😉

[K.T.B.]

13 minutes ago, ECCruise said:

Not true.

These are exactly their words in the CSO:

CDC acknowledges that it is not possible for cruising to be a zero-risk activity for spread of COVID-19.

 

Hell, life itself is not "zero-risk", even if you've been vaccinated.  There is absolutely no way you can have zero-risk in catching Covid, unless you stay hunkered down in your house, staying in bed, with the sheets pulled over your head.  We all take a risk when we go out nowadays, no matter what precautions we take.  However, being vaccinated, wearing a mask INDOORS and in close proximity of others, the risk is minuscule.  I doubt it could actually be measured currently.  it's definitely not "zero-risk" though.

 

The CDC saying that?  My response is, no **** Sherlock.

Edited May 10, 2021 by K.T.B.

[mellapl]

On 5/9/2021 at 9:28 AM, ECCruise said:

How about the Food Stamp on cruises group?

 

On 5/9/2021 at 9:31 AM, LGW59 said:

And just look at what Disney doing to many of their rides...🤬 enough already!! 

 

On 5/9/2021 at 9:31 AM, LGW59 said:

And just look at what Disney doing to many of their rides...🤬 enough already!! 

no woke 

[ECCruise]

1 minute ago, K.T.B. said:

 

Hell, life itself is not "zero-risk", even if you've been vaccinated.  There is absolutely no way you can have zero-risk in catching Covid, unless you stay hunkered down in your house, staying in bed, with the sheets pulled over your head.  We all take a risk when we go out nowadays, no matter what precautions we take.  However, being vaccinated, wearing a mask INDOORS and in close proximity of others, the risk is minuscule.  I doubt it could actually be measured currently.  it's definitely not "zero-risk".

 

The CDC saying that?  My response is, no **** Sherlock.

Then why, pray tell, do many posters on here absolutely INSIST that the CDC only wants cruising to be "zero risk?"  Over and over again. 

[chengkp75]

23 minutes ago, ipeeinthepool said:

 

 

That's exactly the point.  Businesses that don't have the CDC breathing over their shoulder can develop their own plans.  As you noted, the CDC really isn't the expert in any of these fields.  Maybe the CDC should step aside, not issue guidelines and let the cruise lines develop their own plans.  A lot more people have possible Covid exposure at Walmart than all of the cruise lines put together.

And, guess what?  The cruise industry could very easily have developed their own plans, without waiting for the CDC's instructions.  But they didn't, for a year and counting.  The CDC issues guidelines or requirements based on their area of expertise (epidemiology), which they did with the April 2020 NSO update (and those requirements have not changed to this date).  When, and only when, they received no feedback or action plans from the cruise lines that outlined how the cruise lines would meet those requirements (the cruise lines' area of expertise, running a cruise ship), did the CDC resort to issuing "technical instructions" on the how.  Just look at the CDC's VSP, which was designed in concert between the CDC and cruise industry, with the CDC inputting on the epidemiology and the cruise lines inputting on how to do it in a feasible manner.

[K.T.B.]

4 minutes ago, ECCruise said:

Then why, pray tell, do many posters on here absolutely INSIST that the CDC only wants cruising to be "zero risk?"  Over and over again. 

 

Based on the rules they're putting forth, it sure feels like that's their goal.  I don't see it that way, but others might.

 

I see the rules they're pushing forward right now as the same rules the cruise lines proposed back in September, back before any vaccine, except these rules are a thousand times unnecessarily more restrictive.  They do not taking into account the current reality.

[chengkp75]

15 minutes ago, K.T.B. said:

 

Which they did for the European and Mediterranean cruises.  It's been mentioned before, but it's worth mentioning again:  400,000+ passengers, only 50 cases of Covid.  PRE-vaccine.

And, have you read MSC's policies?  Pretty much what the CDC is requiring, but guess what, they did it all on their own, not waiting for CDC to issue specific instructions, so their plan would very likely meet with approval from the CDC.  Have they submitted their plan for review?  Do they not want to get the port/service agreements?  They have some of these same things in Europe, just with less strict outlines due to the differences in the health care industries between US and Europe.