Well, now this is interesting.....Looks like Florida may have gotten it's way.

[harkinmr]

Just now, Daniel A said:

That's an interesting article.  I don't believe Judge Merryday will permit the CDC inflicting punishment on only those ships that do not comply with the CSO.  That on its face is making it a mandatory requirement rather than medical guidance.  It clearly flies in the face of the injunction.  The CDC response to the lifting of the stay sounds more like an intemperate child having a tantrum.  If CDC wants to implement these provisions across the board on all cruise ships, that's one thing, but this article says these rules will only apply to those ships not voluntarily complying with the CSO.

 

Additionally, the rule only applies to the first and last 12 miles out of Florida.

You are personalizing the response by the CDC and that is a mistake. This is a legal game and that is all. This is not “punishment” and Judge Merryday will not have a say. The public transportation mandate is separate and distinct from the CSO. It does not stop at international waters. It continues during the length of the voyage and must be maintained to reenter the US. It’s very clear that the cruise lines will continue to comply with the CDC rules notwithstanding the preliminary injunction in Florida. Royal Caribbean and CLIA have already made statements to that effect. Anyone expecting dramatic changes to the way cruise ships operate out of Florida will surely be disappointed. 
 

 

[Daniel A]

1 hour ago, KirkNC said:

at the end of the day the cruise lines will follow the CDC guidelines regardless of the out come in court.

That is precisely the point of the Florida suit.  CDC can issue guidelines but not arbitrarily order the shutdown an entire industry for an indefinite period. 

 

I do believe that it is in the best interests of the industry to adopt many of the suggestions of the CDC but not necessarily every single suggestion in order to sail.

 

I also believe that it is in the best interests of the CDC to be more reticent in issuing its rules lest a court or congress step in to reign in the authority of the agency.

[Daniel A]

5 minutes ago, harkinmr said:

The public transportation mandate is separate and distinct from the CSO. Not anymore,  Last night the CDC tied the two together.  It does not stop at international waters. It continues during the length of the voyage and must be maintained to reenter the US. 

Per the CDC:  "On January 29, 2021, CDC issued an Order that required face masks to be worn by all people while on public transportation (which included all passengers and all personnel operating conveyances) traveling into, within, or out of the United States and U.S. territories."

Requirement for Face Masks on Public Transportation Conveyances and at Transportation Hubs | CDC

 

The rule stops at the 12 mile limit unless entering U.S. territorial waters and then only within the 12 mile limit of the U.S. territory's waters.

[harkinmr]

17 minutes ago, Daniel A said:

That is precisely the point of the Florida suit.  CDC can issue guidelines but not arbitrarily order the shutdown an entire industry for an indefinite period. 

 

I do believe that it is in the best interests of the industry to adopt many of the suggestions of the CDC but not necessarily every single suggestion in order to sail.

 

I also believe that it is in the best interests of the CDC to be more reticent in issuing its rules lest a court or congress step in to reign in the authority of the agency.

That was not the point of the Florida suit. The point of the Florida suit was that the CSO was issued outside the scope of the CDC’s legal mandate. Florida has not supported CDC guidance as has been abundantly demonstrated by the Governor’s approach to COVID-19 protocols from the start of the pandemic and his assertions that he can prevent the cruise lines from mandating vaccines.  One must also keep in mind that until there is a final resolution on the underlying lawsuit that the CSO remains in full force and effect in every other state outside Florida. There is no cruise line that is going to work outside the scope of the order and incur the administrative nightmares that would naturally follow from doing so.  

Edited July 24, 2021 by harkinmr

[harkinmr]

3 minutes ago, Daniel A said:

Per the CDC:  "On January 29, 2021, CDC issued an Order that required face masks to be worn by all people while on public transportation (which included all passengers and all personnel operating conveyances) traveling into, within, or out of the United States and U.S. territories."

Requirement for Face Masks on Public Transportation Conveyances and at Transportation Hubs | CDC

 

The rule stops at the 12 mile limit unless entering U.S. territorial waters and then only within the 12 mile limit of the U.S. territory's waters.

You need to do some research. This has been discussed repeatedly. The language you highlight speaks directly to the fact that compliance is expected at all times outside US waters and airspace in order to reenter the US. You will also want to research the concept of “free pratique” which requires compliance will all federal regulations even outside US waters in order to freely reenter a US port. 

[ontheweb]

47 minutes ago, Daniel A said:

Per the CDC:  "On January 29, 2021, CDC issued an Order that required face masks to be worn by all people while on public transportation (which included all passengers and all personnel operating conveyances) traveling into, within, or out of the United States and U.S. territories."

Requirement for Face Masks on Public Transportation Conveyances and at Transportation Hubs | CDC

 

The rule stops at the 12 mile limit unless entering U.S. territorial waters and then only within the 12 mile limit of the U.S. territory's waters.

According to your ridiculous interpretation, passengers no international flights would not have to wear their masks while not over the boundaries of any country.

[POA1]

58 minutes ago, Daniel A said:

Per the CDC:  "On January 29, 2021, CDC issued an Order that required face masks to be worn by all people while on public transportation (which included all passengers and all personnel operating conveyances) traveling into, within, or out of the United States and U.S. territories."

Requirement for Face Masks on Public Transportation Conveyances and at Transportation Hubs | CDC

 

The rule stops at the 12 mile limit unless entering U.S. territorial waters and then only within the 12 mile limit of the U.S. territory's waters.

Cruise ships do not, by definition, qualify as Public Transportation. That's rather the point of the PVSA.

 

They're in a whole separate category. If cruises were public transportation, you would have the same requirements as buses, planes, and trains. We'd also be able to lobby for those sweet tax dollars to pay for our trips.

Edited July 24, 2021 by POA1

[harkinmr]

20 minutes ago, POA1 said:

Cruise ships do not, by definition, qualify as Public Transportation. That's rather the point of the PVSA.

 

They're in a whole separate category. If cruises were public transportation, you would have the same requirements as buses, planes, and trains. We'd also be able to lobby for those sweet tax dollars to pay for our trips.

They are public transportation and have been designated as such by the CDC for purposes of the public transit mask mandate.  Google it. 

[harkinmr]

31 minutes ago, ontheweb said:

According to your ridiculous interpretation, passengers no international flights would not have to wear their masks while not over the boundaries of any country.

Precisely. 

[POA1]

9 minutes ago, harkinmr said:

They are public transportation and have been designated as such by the CDC for purposes of the public transit mask mandate.  Google it. 

Designated BY THE CDC per Google - which is never wrong. Show me the US Code citation that says it. (You can Google it. Pro tip: There are law databases for this. There are better.)

[POA1]

14 minutes ago, harkinmr said:

They are public transportation and have been designated as such by the CDC for purposes of the public transit mask mandate.  Google it. 

Also, by your interpretation, cruise lines would be sailing. Public transportation has been "essential" per the CDC.

[harkinmr]

9 minutes ago, POA1 said:

Designated BY THE CDC per Google - which is never wrong. Show me the US Code citation that says it. (You can Google it. Pro tip: There are law databases for this. There are better.)

https://www.cdc.gov/quarantine/cruise/index.html

 

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/travelers/face-masks-public-transportation.html

 

You make this so easy.  The CDC has established regulations pursuant to its authority under federal law in many ways aside from the Conditional Sail Order.  Federal law provides them with regulatory control over cruise ships.  Their mandates clearly cover all sorts of public transportation, including maritime under federal maritime law.  This would include any transit mask mandate.  

 

Now, you show me a federal code citation where it establishes that the CDC does not have this power.

[POA1]

23 minutes ago, harkinmr said:

https://www.cdc.gov/quarantine/cruise/index.html

 

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/travelers/face-masks-public-transportation.html

 

You make this so easy.  The CDC has established regulations pursuant to its authority under federal law in many ways aside from the Conditional Sail Order.  Federal law provides them with regulatory control over cruise ships.  Their mandates clearly cover all sorts of public transportation, including maritime under federal maritime law.  This would include any transit mask mandate.  

 

Now, you show me a federal code citation where it establishes that the CDC does not have this power.

You did not provide ONE SINGLE US Code (which is the law. Google it!) citation.

 

All you did was show me where the CDC claimed its authority vested.

 

Have you tried banging your head on a hard surface? That oft times works with tube-powered equipment.

[Daniel A]

1 hour ago, POA1 said:

Designated BY THE CDC per Google - which is never wrong. Show me the US Code citation that says it. (You can Google it. Pro tip: There are law databases for this. There are better.)

Actually, if you were to take the interpretation of some of these posts as to where the CDC's masking mandate has jurisdiction , then the CDC would be able to mandate that you must wear a mask when on a tour bus on an excursion in a foreign country, or taking a nice sail in Aruba.  If you sail R/T from the U.S. to Italy, you better wear a mask in that gondola...I didn't realize that the CDC now has assumed world wide authority to mandate conduct.

 

As an aside, if the CDC's public transit mask requirement applied to cruise ships then why did they need to insert masking rules into the CSO?

 

This is really getting absurd.

Edited July 24, 2021 by Daniel A

[harkinmr]

1 minute ago, POA1 said:

You did not provide ONE SINGLE US Code (which is the law. Google it!) citation.

 

All you did was show me where the CDC claimed its authority vested.

 

Have you tried banging your head on a hard surface? That oft times works with tube-powered equipment.

https://www.cdc.gov/quarantine/pdf/Mask-Order-CDC_GMTF_01-29-21-p.pdf

 

Personal insults prove nothing but a desperate need to denigrate when you have no other resource. The CDC garners its regulatory power under the federal statute giving HHS its public health mandate, including its powers during a Public Health Emergency.  Regulatory power is very broad in its nature for any public entity. 

 

[mightycruisequeen]

1 minute ago, harkinmr said:

Personal insults prove nothing but a desperate need to denigrate when you have no other resource.

 

Yes, I've seen empirical evidence of that.

[harkinmr]

16 minutes ago, Daniel A said:

Actually, if you were to take the interpretation of some of these posts as to where the CDC's masking mandate has jurisdiction , then the CDC would be able to mandate that you must wear a mask when on a tour bus on an excursion in a foreign country, or taking a nice sail in Aruba.  If you sail R/T from the U.S. to Italy, you better wear a mask in that gondola...I didn't realize that the CDC now has assumed world wide authority to mandate conduct.

 

As an aside, if the CDC's public transit mask requirement applied to cruise ships then why did they need to insert masking rules into the CSO?

 

This is really getting absurd.

You are correct. This is getting absurd, because some posters are carrying their “theories” to illogical extremes. The CDC and its public transportation mandate would not apply to transportation within a foreign country as that “tour bus” trip did not originate from, nor would it be returning to the US. And mask requirements are in fact incorporated into the CSO.  There have been adjustments to those requirements under the order in the case of vaccinated cruises meeting the 95/98 threshold, as well as modifications for certain venues and outdoor locations. 

Edited July 24, 2021 by harkinmr

[chengkp75]

8 hours ago, Daniel A said:

That is precisely the point of the Florida suit.  CDC can issue guidelines but not arbitrarily order the shutdown an entire industry for an indefinite period. 

 

I do believe that it is in the best interests of the industry to adopt many of the suggestions of the CDC but not necessarily every single suggestion in order to sail.

 

I also believe that it is in the best interests of the CDC to be more reticent in issuing its rules lest a court or congress step in to reign in the authority of the agency.

What you are missing, my friend, is exactly what I predicted would happen.  To quote the yahoo article:  "CDC also said cruise ships not following its order must abide by other requirements including "reporting of individual cases of illness or death and ship inspections and sanitary measures to prevent the introduction, transmission, or spread of communicable diseases."

 

This means that cruise ships that are not following the CSO requirements will fall back on standard practice for ships entering the US, and will be subject to inspection and health surveys of passengers and crew, every time they enter the US.  There is no way a judge can stop this, as this is what is precisely spelled out in the Public Health Act.

 

And to beat a dead horse for the final time, since the April, 2020, amendment to the NSO, the cruise industry was free to apply for free pratique if they met the conditions of the NSO, which they refused to do for over a year, but are now suddenly okay with meeting for their restart.

Edited July 24, 2021 by chengkp75

[Daniel A]

19 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

What you are missing, my friend, is exactly what I predicted would happen.  To quote the yahoo article:  "CDC also said cruise ships not following its order must abide by other requirements including "reporting of individual cases of illness or death and ship inspections and sanitary measures to prevent the introduction, transmission, or spread of communicable diseases."

 

This means that cruise ships that are not following the CSO requirements will fall back on standard practice for ships entering the US, and will be subject to inspection and health surveys of passengers and crew, every time they enter the US.  There is no way a judge can stop this, as this is what is precisely spelled out in the Public Health Act.

 

And to beat a dead horse for the final time, since the April, 2020, amendment to the NSO, the cruise industry was free to apply for free pratique if they met the conditions of the NSO, which they refused to do for over a year, but are now suddenly okay with meeting for their restart.

I enjoy our discussions and hope you are sincere when you referred to me as my friend.  I hope someday we can share a beer or dinner or both either in Maine or somewhere else.

 

IMHO, if the CDC is only enforcing certain rules only against ships who take advantage of the injunction they're into another surprise...

[Daniel A]

30 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

To quote the yahoo article:  "CDC also said cruise ships not following its order must abide by other requirements including "reporting of individual cases of illness or death and ship inspections and sanitary measures to prevent the introduction, transmission, or spread of communicable diseases."

Won't they require the same thing from all other cruise ships or is the CDC willing to risk the health and public safety by only targeting the cruise ships they don't like?

 

It sounds a little bit like neglect of duty for political purposes to me, but what would I know, I only had people and agencies prosecuted for this...

 

There are laws and they must apply to everyone or they don't apply to anybody.

 

"nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws." - 14th amendment to the U.S. Constitution

 

14th Amendment | U.S. Constitution | US Law | LII / Legal Information Institute (cornell.edu)

 

A 'corporation' is also a person under U.S. law.  Where is the equal treatment here?  I would venture a guess that Judge Merryday has the answer.

[chengkp75]

Just as the VSP, which you continue to ignore, allows for cruise ships to bypass the sanitary inspection and health interviews every cruise, by complying with additional regulations, so the CDC can say that unless the ship follows the CSO, then it will have to comply with the standard inspection and quarantine until the inspection is completed.

 

And, no, they are not "targeting" ships they "don't like", the other ships are meeting the additional requirements that allow them to bypass the inspections.  The equal treatment is that some ships are willing to meet additional health requirements, while some are not.  Some cruise lines are willing to expend additional cost, so subject themselves to a financial burden in order to avoid another financial burden (the time and delay of weekly inspections).

[harkinmr]

1 hour ago, Daniel A said:

Won't they require the same thing from all other cruise ships or is the CDC willing to risk the health and public safety by only targeting the cruise ships they don't like?

 

It sounds a little bit like neglect of duty for political purposes to me, but what would I know, I only had people and agencies prosecuted for this...

 

There are laws and they must apply to everyone or they don't apply to anybody.

 

"nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws." - 14th amendment to the U.S. Constitution

 

14th Amendment | U.S. Constitution | US Law | LII / Legal Information Institute (cornell.edu)

 

A 'corporation' is also a person under U.S. law.  Where is the equal treatment here?  I would venture a guess that Judge Merryday has the answer.

If these laws must apply to all equally, as you say, then the cruise lines that are sailing from other states would also have a valid claim that the “onerous”provisions of the CSO that apply to them must also apply equally to those within the jurisdiction of Florida.  Why should they be subject to such unequal treatment in the eyes of the law?  
 

It is not “neglect of duty” as the mandates for masking and other health protocols, as well as testing and reporting of COVID-19 and other infectious diseases onboard for reentry to the US are encompassed within the CSO.  The CDC is simply providing a reminder to the cruise lines that health protocols and infection control will apply notwithstanding that the CSO has no further legal enforcement claim in the State of Florida. 
 

You seem to see this as some sort of vendetta by the CDC and akin to political persecution.  Perhaps if you backed away from that and simply looked at it as a means for protecting public health and the control of infectious disease in the absence of the no sail order it would look less villainous.  The VSP lives on as it always has.
 

It really is all a moot point, as it appears very clear that the cruise lines will continue to comply with the guidance and recommendations of the CDC for all sailings out of Florida. We can all only hope and celebrate this approach, as not doing so would surely prove to be a disaster in the making under the current circumstances. 

[Nymich]

The cruise lines never wanted the cdc's cso hanging over their heads but wisely they will never say that.  This is why they applauded the Governors position initially when the cdc had them locked down.  The cdc struck back and the cruise lines backed off the applause.  More to come with this one.

[kelleherdl]

On 7/24/2021 at 6:09 PM, chengkp75 said:

What you are missing, my friend, is exactly what I predicted would happen.  To quote the yahoo article:  "CDC also said cruise ships not following its order must abide by other requirements including "reporting of individual cases of illness or death and ship inspections and sanitary measures to prevent the introduction, transmission, or spread of communicable diseases."

 

This means that cruise ships that are not following the CSO requirements will fall back on standard practice for ships entering the US, and will be subject to inspection and health surveys of passengers and crew, every time they enter the US.  There is no way a judge can stop this, as this is what is precisely spelled out in the Public Health Act.

 

And to beat a dead horse for the final time, since the April, 2020, amendment to the NSO, the cruise industry was free to apply for free pratique if they met the conditions of the NSO, which they refused to do for over a year, but are now suddenly okay with meeting for their restart.

Not to beat a dead horse, but which ‘orders and requirements’ legally in effect are you referring to?

[kelleherdl]

On 7/24/2021 at 12:11 PM, harkinmr said:

https://www.cdc.gov/quarantine/cruise/index.html

 

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/travelers/face-masks-public-transportation.html

 

 

Now, you show me a federal code citation where it establishes that the CDC does not have this power.

Sorry, under our Constitution that is not how it works.  Agencies have NO POWER to do anything without Congress giving it to them.  That is the basis for the lawsuit.