Will Princess cruise from Florida with unvaccinated passengers in Jan 2022?

[nocl]

1 minute ago, ontheweb said:

But how do you determine someone's religious reason is real or not? Freedom of religion is guaranteed by the First Amendment. The government can't say we do not recognize your religion because we think it is a fringe religion or just your personal belief while recognizing other religions because they are organized and more commonplace.

 

That is why when there was a measles outbreak years ago in NY state, the law that was passed requiring measles shots to attend school outlawed all religious exemptions . (Medical exemptions were still allowed allowing those in that category to benefit from the herd immunity that came from everyone else being vaccinated.)

There is a set of documentation required.  For example it would probably  require documentation from the appropriate church with a signed documents from a Church official and as I stated the last time I looked it up that was only one church in the US that would qualify, Christian Scientist.  Other religions might have people that try to claim it, but their official church doctrines do not forbid vaccination.

 

Anyone with a medical condition that would not allow them to be vaccinated would, of course, need medical review.

[ontheweb]

4 minutes ago, nocl said:

There is a set of documentation required.  For example it would probably  require documentation from the appropriate church with a signed documents from a Church official and as I stated the last time I looked it up that was only one church in the US that would qualify, Christian Scientist.  Other religions might have people that try to claim it, but their official church doctrines do not forbid vaccination.

 

Anyone with a medical condition that would not allow them to be vaccinated would, of course, need medical review.

When NY allowed the religious exemption for not taking the measles vaccine, they did not ask for documentation. And I do not believe the First or Fourteenth Amendments would have allowed them to do so. 

[nocl]

2 hours ago, CanuckCurlers said:

Cruise companies have run cruises for all kinds of groups in the past so why is it not possible to have cruises for those vaccinated and ones for those who are not. What people seem to think is that being on a ship is the same as being on land. We are all aware of the fact that it isn't. The fact that the virus spread on the Diamond even when people were isolated in their cabins is proof that the ventilation on ships does not stop it's spread and there is no proof that improvements in it are effective. 90% of every ship is indoors. Having unvaccinated on a ship increases the chance that a cruiser, even vaccinated, will have their vacation cut short, will miss ports or even by being exposed to the virus be required to isolate during or after their cruise. What kind of holiday is that? Why can't there be two cruise worlds? With and without. The cruiselines can decide the ratio of each depending on sales.

Actually if you read the Japanese ministry report about the Diamond, the passengers (except for same cases of people in the same cabins) appear to all most all have gotten infected prior to the isolation.

The crew who was not isolated was a different story.  Many if not most of the crew cases occurred after lockdown.

 

There is a report that goes into considerable depth (also a Japanese TV special on the subject) that analyzed occurrence, onset of symptoms, cabin locations, crew cabin locations, crew implementation of isolation practices.  Including a list of problems with how the crew implemented their safety procedures.  According to the analysis there was little spread among passengers after lockdown (the delays were different incubation times within the known behavior of that virus strain) except for some cases of transmission to cabin mates. The report tracks date of symptom or positive result by day after lock down.  Unfortunately it is lacking some detail since at the time they did not realize just how high the percentage of asymptomatic cases that would occur with COVID, so testing was not done on the entire population without symptoms, only a subset of suspected exposures.

[nocl]

19 minutes ago, ontheweb said:

When NY allowed the religious exemption for not taking the measles vaccine, they did not ask for documentation. And I do not believe the First or Fourteenth Amendments would have allowed them to do so. 

That is also New York state.  Actually they could require it.  They chose not to.  There are several other states that do require documentation.  The most interesting state is California who does not allow any religious exception.  Will be interesting to see when that is tested in court.  Connecticut also is very tight concerning religious exception to vaccination with a very concrete set of certifications needed.

 

You do know that New York has also changed its law such that it no longer lists a religious exception.

Edited July 10, 2021 by nocl

[nocl]

3 hours ago, Wishing on a star said:

And, the current CDC Conditional Sail Order may or may not be in effect, based on any Appeals Court Ruling.   FL came out ahead in round one...  Didn't the judge rule that the CSO was in effect until the end of July??? (or was it July18th)  And the CDC immediately appealed.  It would seem that any future cruising will be contingent on any rulings on appeal.

Of course the venue for the case was chosen by the state, not in the Northern district where the capital is or the Southern district where most of the cruises depart from, but from the Central district where they got a judge that has spent his entire legal career (private practice up until getting appointed to the court) in the state of Florida.  The plaintive gets a substantial advantage in the first round because they get to pick the venue.  Will be interesting to see how the appeals court reacts.

[CanuckCurlers]

57 minutes ago, nocl said:

 Unfortunately it is lacking some detail since at the time they did not realize just how high the percentage of asymptomatic cases that would occur with COVID, so testing was not done on the entire population without symptoms, only a subset of suspected exposures.

Unfortunately a lot was unknown at the time and most reviews were over a year ago. Even then it was stated in the Japanese review that

“This may indicate that most SARS-CoV-2 infections began at mass-gathering events in the recreational areas, where all passengers enjoyed dancing, singing, shopping, and watching performances,” the paper continued.

along with

As for the mode of transmission, a joint report from Harvard’s School of Public Health and the Illinois Institute of Technology showed close-range aerosol transmission was the dominant mode after the quarantine began.

“Our results demonstrate that aerosol inhalation was likely the dominant contributor to Covid-19 transmission among passengers aboard the Diamond Princess Cruise Ship.”

 

 

Does this not support the newest science that along with vaccines, good ventilation and mask wearing, especially needed by nonvaccinated people, are most likely the best ways to control Covid (as well as any other aerosol spreading viruses).

[nocl]

3 minutes ago, CanuckCurlers said:

Unfortunately a lot was unknown at the time and most reviews were over a year ago. Even then it was stated in the Japanese review that

“This may indicate that most SARS-CoV-2 infections began at mass-gathering events in the recreational areas, where all passengers enjoyed dancing, singing, shopping, and watching performances,” the paper continued.

along with

As for the mode of transmission, a joint report from Harvard’s School of Public Health and the Illinois Institute of Technology showed close-range aerosol transmission was the dominant mode after the quarantine began.

“Our results demonstrate that aerosol inhalation was likely the dominant contributor to Covid-19 transmission among passengers aboard the Diamond Princess Cruise Ship.”

 

 

Does this not support the newest science that along with vaccines, good ventilation and mask wearing, especially needed by nonvaccinated people, are most likely the best ways to control Covid (as well as any other aerosol spreading viruses).

The point I was making is that the passengers mostly got infected in public spaces on the ship, prior to the lock down, The crew mostly got infected after the lock due to poor implementation of protocols.

 

That the transmission was not by ship ventilation systems between rooms, and that infection of passengers did not continue after the lockdown started except for cases between passengers in the same room.

 

That was clear in the location map of the infected on board.  No indications of infection going from room to room via ventilation system.

 

The transmission by aerosols was in indoor spaces in public areas. A problem that really still has not been solved and is largely unsolvable without a complete redesign of ship ventilation systems and how air flows in public spaces.  They can increase the amount of fresh air and can increase the number of air exchanges, but air flow is still largely horizontal instead of a strict top down like is on air planes.

[Wishing on a star]

I will just say,  from credible info, that no exemptions are being considered.

The pre-fab, canned, "No vaccination record, No boarding, No refund."

If anyone here knows of any other information at all, then that would be interesting to share.

 

The banner on all cruises for this year states:

"We will operate this cruise consistent with CDC guidelines, with exceptions as required by law. This cruise is available for guests who have received their final dose of an approved COVID-19 vaccine at least 14 days prior to the beginning of the cruise and have proof of vaccination"

 

If you click FAQ :

"These cruises are available for guests who have received their final dose of an approved COVID-19 vaccine at least 14 days prior to the beginning of the cruise and have proof of vaccination, in accordance with CDC guidelines."

 

Then, notice the interesting choice of words,  it is OUR INTENTION.:

"It is our intention to accommodate guests on a case-by-case basis who are entitled to special accommodation under applicable laws,"

 

That "intent' does not seem to be happening???  At least not YET.

Edited July 10, 2021 by Wishing on a star

[esstheman]

I suspect the vaccine requirement will be a permanent fixture for the cruises, regardless of the CDC.  There may be exceptions for small children, depending on whether there is any progress in developing a vaccine for people under 12, but cruise ships can't afford to alienate its customer base by taking risks with allowing passengers who spread disease.  And who wants to have to wear a mask all the time if you've done your societal duty and already been jabbed.

[maggie777]

3 minutes ago, Wishing on a star said:

I will just say,  from credible info, that no exemptions are being considered.

The pre-fab, canned, "No vaccination record, No boarding, No refund."

If anyone here knows of any other information at all, then that would be interesting to share.

 

What will PCL do in Nov when the first Fl cruise is booked???

[Wishing on a star]

Maggie,  I assume you mean 'embarking'...  again,

No adequate proof of vaccination

No boarding

No refund

 

That is their canned response.

 

If your, or any, party/group, has a guest booked who is under the age to be vaccinated, or is not vaccinated, I would say that this is what they would do.

They have already cancelled all bookings on this summer's Alaskan sailings that were booked with under-aged children in the cabin.  As discussed in a prior thread.

 

I haven't checked, but it seems that they have moved the final payment date on December cruises back one month, as to provide leeway for change.   We have been considering a November cruise, and wonder if they will move that final payment back as well.

 

NOTE:  THIS IS AN EVER EVOLVING UNFOLDING SITUATION

Edited July 10, 2021 by Wishing on a star

[ontheweb]

3 hours ago, nocl said:

That is also New York state.  Actually they could require it.  They chose not to.  There are several other states that do require documentation.  The most interesting state is California who does not allow any religious exception.  Will be interesting to see when that is tested in court.  Connecticut also is very tight concerning religious exception to vaccination with a very concrete set of certifications needed.

 

You do know that New York has also changed its law such that it no longer lists a religious exception.

Yes, they changed that when there was a measles epidemic in parts of the state when too many claimed a religious exemption.

 

With the First Amendment applying to the federal government and the Fourteenth Amendment carrying on the same restraints on the state and local governments, it is not possible to say your religion qualifies, but yours does not. No government official has the right to say one's religious beliefs are not qualified.

[Wishing on a star]

I see this has come in, about a small, 175 passenger small-ship, the American Cruise Line Constellation.

This is a current Alaskan 10 night. (so limits here to 7 nights)

I believe it is three people, 2 passengers and a crew member, tested positive.

They cut this cruise short, and have cancelled the next sailing.

 

 

[caribill]

5 hours ago, Wishing on a star said:

From what I understand,  no they are not considering any exceptions.

 

Federal anti-discrimination law says they have to as you cannot discriminate based on a medical condition or a true religious belief.

[caribill]

7 hours ago, CanuckCurlers said:

The fact that the virus spread on the Diamond even when people were isolated in their cabins is proof that the ventilation on ships does not stop it's spread and there is no proof that improvements in it are effective.

 

Except that the virus did not spread once people were confined to their cabins.

 

Infection rates increased as testing was done and it was done at a very slow pace. All the positive tests were the first ones performed on the passengers.

[nocl]

1 hour ago, ontheweb said:

Yes, they changed that when there was a measles epidemic in parts of the state when too many claimed a religious exemption.

 

With the First Amendment applying to the federal government and the Fourteenth Amendment carrying on the same restraints on the state and local governments, it is not possible to say your religion qualifies, but yours does not. No government official has the right to say one's religious beliefs are not qualified.

That would be an interesting one.  There have been court cases where religious considerations have been denied because the action requested was not part of the doctrine of the religion that the individuals indicated they were part of.  You have all kinds of cases where people have claimed special treatment of all kinds with both made up and organized religions.      The cases usual go counter to the individual unless they are part of an organized religion that has a clear doctrine considering the matter.

 

People have more success trying to claim religious non-profit status than religious exception.

[Ombud]

2 hours ago, caribill said:

 

Federal anti-discrimination law says they have to as you cannot discriminate based on a medical condition or a true religious belief.

California requires full documented vaccination for all school registration, religious exemption not accepted. Homeschooling through county board of education not possible

 (I know -- one of my granddaughters is homeschooled privately through textbooks available online / Amazon / Target)

Edited July 11, 2021 by Ombud

[Wishing on a star]

And, the word 'intend' does not necessarily mean that the letter of the law is followed.

 

I would be very very very surprised if anyone here knows or hears of anyone who is actually being considered for exemption.

[capriccio]

4 hours ago, Wishing on a star said:

I see this has come in, about a small, 175 passenger small-ship, the American Cruise Line Constellation.

This is a current Alaskan 10 night. (so limits here to 7 nights)

I believe it is three people, 2 passengers and a crew member, tested positive.

They cut this cruise short, and have cancelled the next sailing.

 

 

The story I read was that all passengers were required to be vaccinated but the crew was not required but 'many' were vaccinated. Those testing positive and their close contacts were disembarked at a small port (Petersburg) and were isolated.  The ship with the remaining crew and passengers returned to Juneau four days early.  https://www.msn.com/en-us/travel/news/alaska-cruise-ends-early-after-passengers-test-positive-for-covid-19-next-sailing-canceled/ar-AALZJfN

 

This scenario is my biggest fear now.

Edited July 11, 2021 by capriccio

[oskidunker]

Why did they end the cruise? The other ship, cant recall line, just disembarked the infected people and continued the cruise. Evidently there were some unvaccinated people on this cruise. There you go. I wont make any additional comments. 

[capriccio]

15 minutes ago, oskidunker said:

Why did they end the cruise? The other ship, cant recall line, just disembarked the infected people and continued the cruise. Evidently there were some unvaccinated people on this cruise. There you go. I wont make any additional comments. 

All the article says is

 

“American Cruise Lines has implemented its COVID-19 response plan in Alaska and is coordinating with state and local health officials following the detection of COVID-19 on board,” the line said early Saturday in a statement sent to TPG. “Out of an abundance of caution, the line’s small ship will return to port in Juneau and the next cruise, scheduled to depart on July 14th, will be canceled.”

 

I checked the American Cruise Line Board and there is a thread

with just a few entries but one (post #3) is from a passenger (named riverselkie):

 

Friday morning they let us get off for scheduled excursions (even though by then all the unvaccinated crew were isolating and we hadn’t been told about any covid on the ship) then moved the all-aboard from 7 or 8pm to 1pm with no way to notify those already ashore. We actually had to turn around after leaving to retrieve nine passengers who were on a shore excursion the boat must have known about but didn’t wait for.

 

For some reason they don’t “scan” people on and off the boat so had no idea who was back and didn’t even try for a head count before we suddenly left hours early. We haven’t sailed with ACL before so I don’t know if that is normal for them, but with AQSC we always had to scan our card when coming or going from the ship.

 

It was also pretty clear at breakfast Friday morning that something was happening because 95% of the dining room staff was missing. I can write more details later after we figure out what is happening next.

 

We are also surprised so many crew were apparently not fully vaccinated (given the very small number still around after the unvaccinated crew were ordered to isolate).

Edited July 11, 2021 by capriccio

[oskidunker]

Would not sail with this line after this. Head in the sand, full steam ahead. 

[rabin1]

What happens if the CDC decides Pifzer is correct and everyone needs a booster after 8 months? Think of that can of worms

 

[dog]

9 hours ago, Wishing on a star said:

I see this has come in, about a small, 175 passenger small-ship, the American Cruise Line Constellation.

This is a current Alaskan 10 night. (so limits here to 7 nights)

I believe it is three people, 2 passengers and a crew member, tested positive.

They cut this cruise short, and have cancelled the next sailing.

 

 

 

4 hours ago, capriccio said:

All the article says is

 

“American Cruise Lines has implemented its COVID-19 response plan in Alaska and is coordinating with state and local health officials following the detection of COVID-19 on board,” the line said early Saturday in a statement sent to TPG. “Out of an abundance of caution, the line’s small ship will return to port in Juneau and the next cruise, scheduled to depart on July 14th, will be canceled.”

 

I checked the American Cruise Line Board and there is a thread

with just a few entries but one (post #3) is from a passenger (named riverselkie):

 

Friday morning they let us get off for scheduled excursions (even though by then all the unvaccinated crew were isolating and we hadn’t been told about any covid on the ship) then moved the all-aboard from 7 or 8pm to 1pm with no way to notify those already ashore. We actually had to turn around after leaving to retrieve nine passengers who were on a shore excursion the boat must have known about but didn’t wait for.

 

For some reason they don’t “scan” people on and off the boat so had no idea who was back and didn’t even try for a head count before we suddenly left hours early. We haven’t sailed with ACL before so I don’t know if that is normal for them, but with AQSC we always had to scan our card when coming or going from the ship.

 

It was also pretty clear at breakfast Friday morning that something was happening because 95% of the dining room staff was missing. I can write more details later after we figure out what is happening next.

 

We are also surprised so many crew were apparently not fully vaccinated (given the very small number still around after the unvaccinated crew were ordered to isolate).

Thanks for sharing 

[ontheweb]

11 hours ago, caribill said:

 

Federal anti-discrimination law says they have to as you cannot discriminate based on a medical condition or a true religious belief.

What government official defines what is a TRUE religious belief?