NCL is Suing the State of Florida over the State's Covid Policy

[CPT Trips]

2 hours ago, jimbo5544 said:

There is no doubt Frank is a smart guy.  He has been more outspoken then his peers for sure.  He is also the only one not currently sailing.  All that said, I have no dog in this fight, was just curious as to motives.

Motives seem pretty clear to me. NCL wants 100% of its passengers fully vaxed  because they think the vast majority of their customers want just that. Do you think there are other motives at play from NCL’s side?

[Old & Retired]

11 hours ago, ricksurf said:

You choose who's more reliable: Science and the facts around the new Covid variant and vaccines, NCL and their attention to Caution to sailing on their ships, or the State of Florida with 16000 new Covid variant cases today.

Sorry Florida, I chose Science and NCl.

 

Your science or my science?  They are very often very different.

[Old & Retired]

8 hours ago, ChiefMateJRK said:

I appreciate your "concern," but my NCL sailing is moving along just fine and will be 100% vaccinated.  

I guarantee you that your cruise will NOT be 100% vaccinated.  If you think so you are living in a fantasy world.

Edited July 15, 2021 by Old & Retired

[KennyFla]

10 hours ago, WarfRatWA said:

 

 

In their complaint, page 11

 

"A recent survey of more than 5,000 readers of Cruise Critic found that 80% of respondents preferred to sail on a ship with a vaccine requirement, and the industry is dealing with significant uncertainty as the summer sailing season proceeds."

80% is a long way from 100%.  Other cruise lines are sailing from Florida 95%.  I don't see how including this helps them.  And by the way, that number is down.  First surveys said 89%.

[At Sea At Peace]

The games are afoot.  😀

 

.....NCL counsel has Motioned to file in the 11th Circuit Court of Appeals in support of the CDC to overturn ~

 

.....the Middle District of Florida's (Hon. Steven D. Merryday) preliminary injunction of the CDC CSO ~

 

.....so that it can't be used by the State of Florida (which hasn't responded) in NCL's recent filing in the U.S. District Court for the Southern District of Florida to grant preliminary relief enjoining Florida's prohibition so NCL can sail August 15, 2021.

 

07/13/2021MOTION to file amicus brief pursuant to FRAP 29(a) filed by Derek L. Shaffer for NCLH. [9434320-1] [21-12243] (ECF: Derek Shaffer) [Entered: 07/13/2021 04:52 PM]

[At Sea At Peace]

 

07/13/2021MOTION to file amicus brief pursuant to FRAP 29(a) filed by Derek L. Shaffer for NCLH. [9434320-1] [21-12243] (ECF: Derek Shaffer) [Entered: 07/13/2021 04:52 PM]

 

 

 

[KennyFla]

Florida's law was not aimed at the cruise lines, they just got caught up in it.  There has not been one word from the state about how the other cruise lines have worked within the law, because Florida wants them to sail.

 

Again, not one cruise has been cancelled or delayed because of the State Of Florida.  Can you say that about the CDC?

 

And now NCL wants to side with the CDC?  Talk about burning your bridges.

 

Off the rails.

Edited July 15, 2021 by KennyFla

[RocketMan275]

11 hours ago, ALWAYS CRUZIN said:

If they do not allow unvaccinated children that cannot get vaccinated. Hello discriminations lawsuits against NCL.

It isn't discrimination if one can show a compelling reason for the exclusion.

For example:

It isn't discrimination to limit driver's licenses to those over a certain age.

It isn't discrimination to administer vision tests for driver's licenses.

The list goes on.

[RocketMan275]

I have a question:  those cruise lines sailing with a vaccination rate below 95%, are they sailing at full capacity or something less?

[At Sea At Peace]

What strange bedfellows, Frank Del Rio / NCL and the CDC, after such animosity publicly expressed just a few months ago.

 

Also, now appealing for financial impairment from cruising, NCL had already canceled almost everything until fall.

 

In prospective reply to the NCL request for Preliminary Injunction and it's motion to join the CDC in the 11th Circuit appeal, the State of Florida has a lot of Frank Del Rio 'feet in mouth' quotes on its side.

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/travel/2021/04/05/norwegian-sail-july-cdc-vaccine/

 

The chief executive of Norwegian Cruise Line Holdings on Monday rolled out a plan to start sailing again from the United States with fully vaccinated passengers and crew. A big catch: He still needs the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention to sign off, more than a year after the agency prohibited cruising in the United States.

 

The move by CEO Frank Del Rio is a bold salvo amid the cruise industry’s escalating frustration with the CDC, whose allegedly “outdated” rules have been the target of complaints in recent weeks. The criticism has only mounted since Friday, when the agency said travel for vaccinated people was low risk — but also laid out a raft of additional conditions, under a “conditional sailing order,” that cruise lines need to meet before getting permission to operate from U.S. ports.

 

“I’d like to hear an argument why we couldn’t sail,” Del Rio said in an interview. “If everyone on board is vaccinated and following the protocols, there is absolutely no need for the conditional sail order to exist as it is known today.”

 

 https://arstechnica.com/science/2021/04/cruise-industry-salty-over-cdc-plan-to-keep-travelers-safe-from-covid-at-sea/

 

Likewise, Norwegian Cruise Line Holdings CEO Frank Del Rio told The Washington Post in an interview Monday that the company was “disappointed,” by the CDC’s latest guidance. “We thought it was a step backward, quite frankly,” Del Rio said.

 

https://www.cruzely.com/norwegain-ceo-blasts-new-cdc-instructions-summer-restart-could-be-in-jeopardy/

 

Norwegain CEO Blasts New CDC Instructions; Summer Restart “Could Be In Jeopardy”

 

When asked during the call how many ships his company could have ready to go from the U.S. by July if the green light to sail again was given now, Del Rio responded:

 

“None. The July U.S. launch, at least for our company, is just not possible. It was possible back in early April when we proposed to the CDC 100% vaccination. We’ve always said it takes about 90 days to stand up a vessel. So from April 5th, when we submitted our proposal, 90 days would have been early July and that was possible. But today, we’re in early May so now we’re looking past that.”

 

When asked what the health agency says when cruise lines inquire why they are being treated differently than airlines, Del Rio made his thoughts clear.

 

“Listen, they just won’t answer it. We’re perplexed, we’re flabbergasted. We’re outraged. And when we talk about that we’re willing to vaccinate every single person aboard the cruise ship — there isn’t another venue on Earth, not a school, not a factory, not your office building, apartment building, much less an entertainment venue like a casino, hotel, or resort — that can make that claim. We will be the safest place on Earth, by definition.”

“On top of that vaccination mandate, we’re going to implement the 74 Healthy Sail Panel recommendations. That one-two punch is unbeatable. No one on Earth has it. Yet, the CDC continues to treat us differently. We dare say, unfairly.”

 

“Look, it’s not like the CDC has done a great job of controlling the virus around the country. We rank number one in the world for the most infections, the most hospitalizations, I think the most deaths, yet they pick on the cruise industry to an extreme that is just unbelievable, unexplainable.”

 

 

https://www.cruisehive.com/norwegian-cruise-line-suspends-most-regular-us-cruises-into-the-fall/50145

 

Norwegian Cruise Line Suspends Most U.S. Cruises Into the Fall

 

Norwegian Cruise Line has extended its suspension for most regular sailings out of the U.S. into the fall and extended the cancellation policy.

 

[jimbo5544]

36 minutes ago, RocketMan275 said:

I have a question:  those cruise lines sailing with a vaccination rate below 95%, are they sailing at full capacity or something less?

To date less than capacity

[KennyFla]

Another thought, I wonder how the fact that the CDC does not recognize mixed vaccination doses or Astra Zeneca plays into all of this.

[JamieLogical]

10 hours ago, jimbo5544 said:

Unless I misread it, the Florida is only about the ability to mandate asking for Vaccination proof.  I have never seen anything about pecentages.

 

Right, but right now, the lines that are sailing with a vaccination "requirement" are allowing 5% non-vaccinated. That is how they are getting around the law. They are asking passengers to "volunteer" proof of vaccination. If they are unwilling or unable to provide proof, they go into that 5% bucket. So far, that number has not exceeded 5% of passengers, so no one has been denied service based on their vaccination status. However, with NCL's 100% plan, the very first person to decline to volunteer proof of vaccination will be denied service. Therefor, they will immediately run afoul of the FL law.

 

Edited July 15, 2021 by JamieLogical

[WarfRatWA]

3 hours ago, KennyFla said:

80% is a long way from 100%.  Other cruise lines are sailing from Florida 95%.  I don't see how including this helps them.  And by the way, that number is down.  First surveys said 89%.

There is no correlation between the survey stats and 100% vaccinated cruising.  The survey is being used to illustrate that NCL is not arbitrarily setting a standard.  They are following their customers wishes. 

[HuliHuli]

12 hours ago, ALWAYS CRUZIN said:

If they do not allow unvaccinated children that cannot get vaccinated. Hello discriminations lawsuits against NCL.

Indeed, In a chat yesterday with NCL, here is what they said:

• Q:  My grandsons would all be under 12 for a November 2021 cruise. Can they board the ship?

• A:  "No sir, we would have to wait and see when and if NCL will waive that requirement. Sorry for the inconvenience."

The Civil Rights Act of 1964 is one anti-discrimination law that protects certain groups of people, a so-called Protected Class.  A protected class is a group of people who qualify for certain special protection under a law or policy, e.g., age, but this is most often tied to matters of employment discrimination.  I think attempting to pursue an age discrimination case would be an uphill effort, despite the obvious conflicts between the law, science and their policy.

[RocketMan275]

49 minutes ago, jimbo5544 said:

To date less than capacity

One wonders how sailing at less than capacity facilitates other cruise lines vaccination policies.

Is that 5% unvaccinated 5% of ships capacity or 5% of passengers on-board?

[JamieLogical]

12 minutes ago, RocketMan275 said:

One wonders how sailing at less than capacity facilitates other cruise lines vaccination policies.

Is that 5% unvaccinated 5% of ships capacity or 5% of passengers on-board?

 

Under the CDC's return to sail framework, it's 5% of passengers/staff onboard, not 5% of the ship's capacity.

[jimbo5544]

20 minutes ago, RocketMan275 said:

One wonders how sailing at less than capacity facilitates other cruise lines vaccination policies.

Is that 5% unvaccinated 5% of ships capacity or 5% of passengers on-board?

On board

[jimbo5544]

40 minutes ago, JamieLogical said:

 

Right, but right now, the lines that are sailing with a vaccination "requirement" are allowing 5% non-vaccinated. That is how they are getting around the law. They are asking passengers to "volunteer" proof of vaccination. If they are unwilling or unable to provide proof, they go into that 5% bucket. So far, that number has not exceeded 5% of passengers, so no one has been denied service based on their vaccination status. However, with NCL's 100% plan, the very first person to decline to volunteer proof of vaccination will be denied service. Therefor, they will immediately run afoul of the FL law.

 

One more post and I will move on.  Whether we call it a requirement or another name, there clearly is a path out without violating a law.  If NCL does not want to do that (and that def appears to be the case), they do it at their own peril, and that peril is very real.  Deferring cruising till September puts in dire straits financially.  From my viewpoint (not a stockholder) I would say they are risking to much for to little return.  Every week that goes by, that lost revenue opportunity (that never comes again) grows and gros and the costs to sit idle grow and grow.  Not a lawyer either, but I do not see a court overturning a law that protects resident rights.  Hope it works out, we shall see.

[WarfRatWA]

11 minutes ago, jimbo5544 said:

 Deferring cruising till September puts in dire straits financially.  

Of course they are bleeding cash, but as of last June they had enough cash on hand to run 12-14 months without needing a dime.  As evidenced by these boards, plenty of people are booking cruises and have been this year.

 

What evidence do you have they will be in dire straits come September?  Let's forego opinion.  If you have something published, I'd love to see it.

[jimbo5544]

54 minutes ago, WarfRatWA said:

Of course they are bleeding cash, but as of last June they had enough cash on hand to run 12-14 months without needing a dime.  As evidenced by these boards, plenty of people are booking cruises and have been this year.

 

What evidence do you have they will be in dire straits come September?  Let's forego opinion.  If you have something published, I'd love to see it.

I cannot find the 2nd quarter call, but here are the numbers for March.  

 

https://www.globenewswire.com/news-release/2021/05/06/2224344/24500/en/Norwegian-Cruise-Line-Holdings-Reports-First-Quarter-2021-Financial-Results-and-Provides-Business-Update.html

[ALWAYS CRUZIN]

12 hours ago, All-ready2cruise said:

Cruise lines, IMO, have the right to set the rules and protocols to cruise with their cruise line.  Unvaccinated persons are not permitted due to their protocols.  It's not discriminatory, it's their protocols in order to protect their staff/crew and fellow passengers. 

You are incorrect. In todays paper it says. Not allowing those under 12 that are not vaccinated is discrimination. opening them up to a lawsuit. read it today in the news.

[BermudaBound2014]

Just a few thoughts:

 

1. Follow the money

2. It is irrational to make any generalizations about cruising based on this forum. Last I read, we represent less than 5% of cruisers. I do not believe that the rose colored predictions of industry demand are anything more than appeasement.

3. Follow the money.

4. I suspect this lawsuit has very little to do with the difference between 95-100% vaccination onboard. NCL doesn't care about you more than Celebrity cares about it's customers. There is a reason NCL is standing alone. 

5. Follow the money

 

You can start to follow the money here, but remember to read between the lines. Goldman Sacs loaned NCL millions and then immediately changed their rating to buy. Wallstreet doesn't play fair. 

Financial Results :: Norwegian Cruise Line Holdings Ltd. (NCLH) (nclhltd.com)

Edited July 15, 2021 by BermudaBound2014

[ALWAYS CRUZIN]

I do know one thing for sure. Royals and Carnivals stock have taken a major hit. I thought once cruising started they would sky rocket. I was sure wrong.

[BermudaBound2014]

2 minutes ago, ALWAYS CRUZIN said:

I do know one thing for sure. Royals and Carnivals stock have taken a major hit. I thought once cruising started they would sky rocket. I was sure wrong.

 

I suggested investigating short selling several weeks ago to my friends here on cruise critic. I've made enough to pay for multiple cruises in the last three weeks. NCL alone has dropped about 20% in the last month. Just gotta be on the right side of the trade.