Tipping now more important than ever

[navybankerteacher]

2 hours ago, Peter Lanky said:

 

...

 

Incorrect. I have no interest in the employee/employer relationship, though I'd like to think that the staff is happy. I have only two real interests, which are how much I pay for a product at the point of purchase, and that I enjoy the product when it is delivered.

BULL --- you are insisting that tipping is wrong -- and on many cruise lines, tipping is a key part of the employee/employer relationship.  And you go on to say:  "...I'd like to think that the staff is happy..."  -- which is undeniably expressing concern about that relationship.

 

You are, of course, perfectly entitled to have, and to express, genuinely felt opinions on the matter (as, I would hope to think you might concede that others are entitled to hold differing opinions) ---- but the way you bob and weave while doing it is simply tiresome - and, frankly, arrogant.

[Peter Lanky]

23 minutes ago, navybankerteacher said:

BULL --- you are insisting that tipping is wrong -- and on many cruise lines, tipping is a key part of the employee/employer relationship.  And you go on to say:  "...I'd like to think that the staff is happy..."  -- which is undeniably expressing concern about that relationship.

 

You are, of course, perfectly entitled to have, and to express, genuinely felt opinions on the matter (as, I would hope to think you might concede that others are entitled to hold differing opinions) ---- but the way you bob and weave while doing it is simply tiresome - and, frankly, arrogant.

Wow, another insult. So as well as being a pseudo-egalitarian and cheap, I am now arrogant. I have no problem with others having different opinions, in fact I welcome it, as it gives me the opportunity to discuss different aspects of the subject, and even better, I am able to do so by keeping to the subject and not concentrating on the perceived character of my opponent in debate.

 

I certainly don't pretend that everyone is equal, but at the same time I do not believe that there should be such a massive disparity in earnings between different people. There are many people out there that are paid peanuts by doing a very simple but worthwhile job. While I sympathise with their plight, I in no way feel responsible for it, because I did not create the problem.

 

What I can't get to grips with is why, when there is very simple to implement and reasonably just method of paying people by giving them a wage compatible with their skill and effort, do some people want to complicate this by encouraging employers to give some of them a lesser wage than they are worth, and relying on a very complex and very misunderstood method of remuneration, where the onus is on the customer to make up the difference, and even worse, that many of those who champion this system seem to despise those who don't agree with it.

[alc13]

6 hours ago, ldubs said:

 

Where I am, tipping 20% is very common when dining out.  But it is not mandatory or expected.  I hate to admit it but for me it is just easier to calculate than 18%.  😁

 

If I had to, I would say 18% is the current standard (used to be 15%).   There are times when I boost the tip quite a bit.  For example, in a small diner with a small tab, I'll tip  more.    I don't  tip at fast food joints or (in general) for take out.  I will toss coin change in the tip jar if one exists.   

 

 

My experience to a T.  I'll even fish out a few coins if I pay by card at a coffee shop, unless the cashier has been frankly terrible in some way.  (Of note - we lived in the Bay Area until 3 years ago.)  

[alc13]

7 minutes ago, Peter Lanky said:

Wow, another insult. So as well as being a pseudo-egalitarian and cheap, I am now arrogant. I have no problem with others having different opinions, in fact I welcome it, as it gives me the opportunity to discuss different aspects of the subject, and even better, I am able to do so by keeping to the subject and not concentrating on the perceived character of my opponent in debate.

 

I certainly don't pretend that everyone is equal, but at the same time I do not believe that there should be such a massive disparity in earnings between different people. There are many people out there that are paid peanuts by doing a very simple but worthwhile job. While I sympathise with their plight, I in no way feel responsible for it, because I did not create the problem.

 

What I can't get to grips with is why, when there is very simple to implement and reasonably just method of paying people by giving them a wage compatible with their skill and effort, do some people want to complicate this by encouraging employers to give some of them a lesser wage than they are worth, and relying on a very complex and very misunderstood method of remuneration, where the onus is on the customer to make up the difference, and even worse, that many of those who champion this system seem to despise those who don't agree with it.

I've admired your willingness to keep stepping up in the face of criticism, a lot of it quite personal.  Good on you, as the Aussies say.  

[KBs mum]

In conversation with people from the US, it's notable how many say they prefer the European (and elsewhere) no tipping or occasional tipping system, it's impossible for the customer to get it wrong, and the employee knows exactly how much they will earn, allowing financial planning and an easy way to assess the merits of a job's renumeration package. 

 

[Toofarfromthesea]

17 hours ago, c-boy said:

ewwwwww, I was inferring the sales tax on the ticket. When I get the ticket from the server, I look at the tax on the total and multiply that times two. After two martini's, a bottle of wine and a glass of port, it has become my go to ...." ummmm lets see here ... uh....   is that a 2 or a 5.....   .... sip port ... contemplate decision, 😵  .... start feeling confident about my decision ..... sip port .....  ...... okay... 5 times two is 12 ....  ask server to call the number on my phone, tell them I'm ready to be picked up .... "

 

But in some places that could be as low as 10%, was his point.

 

Personally, I double the total, slide the decimal point over one place, and round up to the nearest dollar.  I consider that a pretty generous tip.  So if the bill is 43.27 I double it to get 86 and change, slide the decimal point over to get 8 and change, round up to 9.  I ignore all the stuff about not including tax or alcohol and just use the total.

 

Edited to add:  I should have said that this is my baseline tip and I would adjust it up or down if service was outside the expected norm..  We get bad service far less in AZ than we got in CA,

 

As to insults, I'm not going to feel too bad about that when Americans are routinely blamed for 'ruining' places with our tipping, or being told we are outliers because we don't do like the Europeans do.

Edited February 24, 2022 by Toofarfromthesea

[KBs mum]

22 minutes ago, Toofarfromthesea said:

 

 

As to insults, I'm not going to feel too bad about that when Americans are routinely blamed for 'ruining' places with our tipping, or being told we are outliers because we don't do like the Europeans do.

Nowhere else has the same or similar tipping culture as the US. I've allready asked those on this thread who think the US is not an outlier to provide examples that prove otherwise, from their own travel experiences. None were suggested. 

[ldubs]

2 hours ago, KBs mum said:

In conversation with people from the US, it's notable how many say they prefer the European (and elsewhere) no tipping or occasional tipping system, it's impossible for the customer to get it wrong, and the employee knows exactly how much they will earn, allowing financial planning and an easy way to assess the merits of a job's renumeration package. 

 

 

Not about tipping but I would be OK with having prices include all taxes/fees.  It must be maddening for tourists to America to be charged over and above the price tag.   I am a firm believer in incentive pay. But, tipping could be replaced as far as I'm concerned as long as the change is driven by what would be a real improvement for employee's that allowed the best/most productive to get ahead, and not some popular/elitist concept about fairness.  

[Peter Lanky]

16 minutes ago, ldubs said:

 

Not about tipping but I would be OK with having prices include all taxes/fees.  It must be maddening for tourists to America to be charged over and above the price tag.   I am a firm believer in incentive pay. But, tipping could be replaced as far as I'm concerned as long as the change is driven by what would be a real improvement for employee's that allowed the best/most productive to get ahead, and not some popular/elitist concept about fairness.  

The main problem with incentivising employees is that far too many people think only in monetary terms, both employees and employers. I can't speak for others but I would be quite content with a modest pay packet if I believed my work and personality were valued, which would hopefully lead to promotion of some sort but not necessarily just a jump up the management hierarchy, but to a more specialised and meaningful role.

I would also like to have a relatively short journey to work, nobody clock watching me when I go home at 4pm, and access to complementary leisure facilities provided by my employer for lunch breaks or outside working hours to name a few examples. Holding out my hand for members of the public to give me banknotes every time I please them would not incentivise me.

[KBs mum]

27 minutes ago, ldubs said:

 

Not about tipping but I would be OK with having prices include all taxes/fees.  It must be maddening for tourists to America to be charged over and above the price tag.   I am a firm believer in incentive pay. But, tipping could be replaced as far as I'm concerned as long as the change is driven by what would be a real improvement for employee's that allowed the best/most productive to get ahead, and not some popular/elitist concept about fairness.  

The fairness is that an employee knows what their renumeration package will be, this is determined by market forces for the job, including factors such as location, antisocial hours, experience, references etc. 

The best will get ahead by means of pay rises, promotions, being able to move to a better for them job. Their usefulness will get them more leeway in the workplace eg.more flexible hours. 

Poor employees will stay on starting salary and won't get promotions. They will likely not have contracts renewed and will get the least popular tasks in the workplace. They will probably have no leeway as nobody is worried about retaining their services

[KBs mum]

9 minutes ago, Peter Lanky said:

The main problem with incentivising employees is that far too many people think only in monetary terms, both employees and employers. I can't speak for others but I would be quite content with a modest pay packet if I believed my work and personality were valued, which would hopefully lead to promotion of some sort but not necessarily just a jump up the management hierarchy, but to a more specialised and meaningful role.

I would also like to have a relatively short journey to work, nobody clock watching me when I go home at 4pm, and access to complementary leisure facilities provided by my employer for lunch breaks or outside working hours to name a few examples. Holding out my hand for members of the public to give me banknotes every time I please them would not incentivise me.

Well said, of course cash is important, but so is work life balance, particularly for those who have a caring role in their family. 

Once enough cash is being paid, many change jobs for the same salary but better hours, or take advantage of a pay rise to reduce their hours. 

Others will move to a better working environment, or accept a promotion but negotiate more days off. Staff discounts may be important depending on the employer. 

Edited February 24, 2022 by KBs mum

[Peter Lanky]

1 hour ago, Toofarfromthesea said:

As to insults, I'm not going to feel too bad about that when Americans are routinely blamed for 'ruining' places with our tipping, or being told we are outliers because we don't do like the Europeans do.

I cannot deny that at some stage in the past, I have mentioned to problems of tipping in developing countries. This however is not intended as an insult, but just to ask people to take a step back and ask themselves if handing a waiter $10 after serving them in a restaurant is a good idea, if the waiter's normal weekly wage is only $10, probably the same as the person tirelessly sweeping the street to keep it tidy for visitors is earning. The waiter will be ecstatic, but the sweeper will no doubt be desperate to give up sweeping and become a waiter.

[kamelia]

As an American, I definitely feel that the U.S. custom of tipping has been grossly subverted from its origins. There was a time when, as a consumer, if I appreciated service I received, I had an option to express my gratitude in a manner I believed to be appropriate, regardless of whatever wage the employee was receiving from the employer. A transaction between two people, full stop. Today, the employer has now taken on the role of managing that transaction, from adjusting salaries to offset expected tips, to dictating that the tip must be shared and with whom, all the way to “suggesting” how much is considered appropriate. I no longer view that in any way resembles the original concept.

 

For anyone who doesn’t think this issue hasn’t become a marketing tool, I’ll share an ad I saw on television earlier today for a pizza chain here. To address the problem of too many people ordering pizza for delivery and not enough drivers to accommodate the demand, the company is going to “tip” customers $3.00 to deliver their own pizza. (Fine print, the”tip” is a actually a coupon for $3.00 off your next pizza order.)  Really?

 

Small wonder people have become jaded about this whole tipping issue. SMH

[LGW59]

1 hour ago, Peter Lanky said:

I cannot deny that at some stage in the past, I have mentioned to problems of tipping in developing countries. This however is not intended as an insult, but just to ask people to take a step back and ask themselves if handing a waiter $10 after serving them in a restaurant is a good idea, if the waiter's normal weekly wage is only $10, probably the same as the person tirelessly sweeping the street to keep it tidy for visitors is earning. The waiter will be ecstatic, but the sweeper will no doubt be desperate to give up sweeping and become a waiter.

The sweeper in the US is part of a union, paid a very generous wage and pension program.  Stop suggesting what the US should/should not do re tipping, it is what it is here, and it is or is not what it is in UK.  Your crusade is falling on deaf ears.

[KBs mum]

27 minutes ago, LGW59 said:

The sweeper in the US is part of a union, paid a very generous wage and pension program.  Stop suggesting what the US should/should not do re tipping, it is what it is here, and it is or is not what it is in UK.  Your crusade is falling on deaf ears.

You miss the point, the example was not a US or UK worker, but a wotker somewhere where the weekly wage is ten dollars.

Nobody is suggesting what the US should do, we are putting the case forward for non tip based renumeration for employees. Even in the US most employees don't have a tip based income.

You are free to agree, disagree or provide a counter argument. 

[LGW59]

1 hour ago, KBs mum said:

You miss the point, the example was not a US or UK worker, but a wotker somewhere where the weekly wage is ten dollars.

Nobody is suggesting what the US should do, we are putting the case forward for non tip based renumeration for employees. Even in the US most employees don't have a tip based income.

You are free to agree, disagree or provide a counter argument. 

I miss nothing, no counter argument needed, some business in US tipping is expected, I am OK with that, most in UK are not, OK with that, though I still tip in Europe.  I still subscribe, when in Rome...

[LGW59]

1 hour ago, KBs mum said:

You miss the point, the example was not a US or UK worker, but a wotker somewhere where the weekly wage is ten dollars.

Nobody is suggesting what the US should do, we are putting the case forward for non tip based renumeration for employees. Even in the US most employees don't have a tip based income.

You are free to agree, disagree or provide a counter argument. 

You miss the point, the example was not a US or UK worker, but a wotker somewhere where the weekly wage is ten dollars.  Where in the heck is the weekly wage $10.00?????

[ilikeanswers]

1 hour ago, LGW59 said:

though I still tip in Europe.  I still subscribe, when in Rome...

 

Isn't that a contradiction😂? 

[slidergirl]

13 hours ago, ontheweb said:

You are a bleeding heart liberal.😊 Ok, I did what you want, are you happy now?🤣

Rather a bleeding heart liberal than some other things I've been called.

 

$2.13x37.5 hours for a week's pay at a tipping job here in Utah (Took out the 30 minutes/day for mandatory meal).  Then take out taxes.  You live for those tips.  Raises???  When I worked at the St. Regis hotel, if you got a stellar review (4.5-5 out of 5), you were rewarded with a whopping $.50 raise once a year.  Otherwise, you got $.35.   Doesn't help much if your starting wage is $9/hr.  At least now some are moving up their starting to $15/hr...  

[ldubs]

6 hours ago, KBs mum said:

The fairness is that an employee knows what their renumeration package will be, this is determined by market forces for the job, including factors such as location, antisocial hours, experience, references etc. 

The best will get ahead by means of pay rises, promotions, being able to move to a better for them job. Their usefulness will get them more leeway in the workplace eg.more flexible hours. 

Poor employees will stay on starting salary and won't get promotions. They will likely not have contracts renewed and will get the least popular tasks in the workplace. They will probably have no leeway as nobody is worried about retaining their services

 

One factor in the shortage of restaurant workers in our area is equal paying jobs with better hours-- better work/life balance.  Of course, in the restnt business the most lucrative shifts are those that are likely to be the least popular from a life balance standpoint.  

 

In any good system, the best should always rise to the top, as you say.  And the mediocre will continue to complain about how unfair things are!  

[CPT Trips]

7 hours ago, ldubs said:

 

Not about tipping but I would be OK with having prices include all taxes/fees.  It must be maddening for tourists to America to be charged over and above the price tag.   I am a firm believer in incentive pay. But, tipping could be replaced as far as I'm concerned as long as the change is driven by what would be a real improvement for employee's that allowed the best/most productive to get ahead, and not some popular/elitist concept about fairness.  

When did fairness become elitist?

[CPT Trips]

7 hours ago, ldubs said:

 

Not about tipping but I would be OK with having prices include all taxes/fees.  It must be maddening for tourists to America to be charged over and above the price tag.   I am a firm believer in incentive pay. But, tipping could be replaced as far as I'm concerned as long as the change is driven by what would be a real improvement for employee's that allowed the best/most productive to get ahead, and not some popular/elitist concept about fairness.  

When did fairness become elitist?

[CPT Trips]

7 hours ago, ldubs said:

 

Not about tipping but I would be OK with having prices include all taxes/fees.  It must be maddening for tourists to America to be charged over and above the price tag.   I am a firm believer in incentive pay. But, tipping could be replaced as far as I'm concerned as long as the change is driven by what would be a real improvement for employee's that allowed the best/most productive to get ahead, and not some popular/elitist concept about fairness.  

When did fairness become elitist?

[ldubs]

1 hour ago, slidergirl said:

Rather a bleeding heart liberal than some other things I've been called.

 

$2.13x37.5 hours for a week's pay at a tipping job here in Utah (Took out the 30 minutes/day for mandatory meal).  Then take out taxes.  You live for those tips.  Raises???  When I worked at the St. Regis hotel, if you got a stellar review (4.5-5 out of 5), you were rewarded with a whopping $.50 raise once a year.  Otherwise, you got $.35.   Doesn't help much if your starting wage is $9/hr.  At least now some are moving up their starting to $15/hr...  

 

 Minimum wage laws apply to the total wage including tips.  Some state's apply higher minimums (California is $14 or $15 depending).   I believe Utah follows the Fed minimum.   I'm not commenting on the adequacy of the minimum wage levels, just that there is one, meaning no one is taking home only $2.13/hour.   

 

I have no issue with debate on the custom of tipping vs whatever.   I think what you and I will agree on is that agree or not, it is the custom and tips should not be withheld out of some sense of rightness.   

[ldubs]

1 minute ago, CPT Trips said:

When did fairness become elitist?

 

 

Never said that it had.