Real ID Delayed - Again

[donaldsc]

The government has delayed the requirement for having a Real ID drivers license again for another 2 years.  That makes it how many times that they have delayed the program.  One wonders why they just don't just drop the whole program completely.  This is part of the reason that they give -

 

"Several travel and airport groups worried that implementation next year would lead to confusion and chaotic scenarios at U.S. airports, as noncompliant air travelers would be turned away from boarding domestic aircraft. Although the Transportation Security Administration accepts other forms of Real ID, such as a U.S. passport, none are as ubiquitous as a standard driver’s license.

“This extension will allow individuals more time to obtain compliant identification, helping to prevent undue travel disruptions and preserving the health of the aviation system as we continue to navigate the pandemic’s impacts on global air travel,” said Kevin M. Burke, North America president of the Airports Council International.

The U.S. Travel Association, which had been advocating for a Real ID extension, said in a statement that moving the deadline is “the right decision” to prevent significant travel disruptions."

 

I don't see why we should be worried about the travel disruptions for the people who can't be bothered to get the Real ID license.  After all people have been warned about this for years.  If the people have their precious travel plans disrupted that should be their problem.  They deserve to have them disrupted.  After all the Real ID program was supposed to take effect in 2008.  That was 14 years ago.  The program must be really important and useful if it hasn't been implemented 14 years after the required implementation date.

 

DON

[Charles4515]

43 minutes ago, donaldsc said:

I don't see why we should be worried about the travel disruptions for the people who can't be bothered to get the Real ID license.  After all people have been warned about this for years.  If the people have their precious travel plans disrupted that should be their problem.  They deserve to have them disrupted.  After all the Real ID program was supposed to take effect in 2008.  That was 14 years ago.  The program must be really important and useful if it hasn't been implemented 14 years after the required implementation date.

 

I don't agree. The public should not be blamed. The main reason they say it is being delayed this time is because of covid. Many DMV's were closed. No way to appear at a DMV with the documents for two years in my states. As far as the 2008 date only a few states complied then and in betweet most states dragged their feet or refused to comply.for years for various reasons. Some for political reasons (that it was creating a national ID card) and some for financial reasons. The states were the obstacle.  In many states Real ID was not available until a few years ago. 

 

As for whether it is needed , I doubt it. State governments did not think so. It was imposed by the federal government. 

Edited December 5, 2022 by Charles4515

[GeezerCouple]

And what about children?

 

Could they get an "enhanced state ID" such as what is offered so those without a DL could buy alcohol or such?

 

Or do parents not need an actual passport/passport card, but children do, or else they need a birth certificate, etc.?

So parents can just go to the cruise without any special docs other than their everyday drivers license*, but children... "ooops - we forgot that little X doesn't have a drivers license!"

 

I could see that being a problem as adults stop needing to deal with their own passports or other "cruise docs".

(There's enough "passport/cruise-docs difficulty" already.)

 

* This assumes the "enhanced DL" ever becomes truly required, of course...

GC

[Charles4515]

15 minutes ago, GeezerCouple said:

And what about children?

 

Could they get an "enhanced state ID" such as what is offered so those without a DL could buy alcohol or such?

 

Minors under 18 traveling with an sdult don't need ID for domestic air travel. 

 

As for the rest of your post you are confusing Real ID with Enhanced Drivers Licenses. Real ID will be required. Enhanced is an optional ID only available in 5 border states. EDL can be used instead of a passport on a closed loop cruise. There is no requiremant for  Real ID for cruises. It will only be needed for domestic air travel and to enter some federal facilitiies and military bases.

 

 

Edited December 5, 2022 by Charles4515

[GeezerCouple]

6 minutes ago, Charles4515 said:

 

Minors under 18 traveling with an sdult don't need ID for domestic air travel. 

 

As for the rest of your post you are confusing Real ID with Enhanced Drivers Licenses. Real ID will be required. Enhanced is an optional ID only available in 5 border states. And there is nothing requiring Real ID for cruises. 

 

 

Thanks.

I guess I was indeed getting them mixed up.

(We've always used passports for any travel, including domestic air, so whether our DL are "enhanced" or "Real ID" or whatever, doesn't matter to us.)

 

GC

[donaldsc]

17 minutes ago, Charles4515 said:

I don't agree. The public should not be blamed. The main reason they say it is being delayed this time is because of covid. Many DMV's were closed. No way to appear at a DMV with the documents for two years in my states. As far as the 2008 date only a few states complied then and in betweet most states dragged their feet or refused to comply.for years for various reasons. Some for political reasons (that it was creating a national ID card) and some for financial reasons. The states were the obstacle.  In many states Real ID was not available until a few years ago. 

 

As for whether it is needed , I doubt it. State governments did not think so. It was imposed by the federal government. 

 

The law specified that the Real ID was required on a specific date.  The law did not give the states the right to refuse to comply.  If then government had made it clear that people were not going to be allowed on planes and also made it clear that enforcement was not going to be delayed for any reason the states would have found a way to comply.  The effect of the consistent compliance delays by the states was that they figured there would be no negative results if they did not comply so why bother.  That assumption by the states was obviously correct since the requirement has been delayed - again.

 

DON

[ldubs]

6 minutes ago, donaldsc said:

 

The law specified that the Real ID was required on a specific date.  The law did not give the states the right to refuse to comply.  If then government had made it clear that people were not going to be allowed on planes and also made it clear that enforcement was not going to be delayed for any reason the states would have found a way to comply.  The effect of the consistent compliance delays by the states was that they figured there would be no negative results if they did not comply so why bother.  That assumption by the states was obviously correct since the requirement has been delayed - again.

 

DON

 

Well, my state doesn't seem overly concerned about Federal law, but that is an entirely different discussion that would likely not be allowed here on CC. 

 

I do agree that a uniform ID is a good thing to have.   At the same time, I think the covid issue that Charles4515 mentions is a valid reason to delay implementation.   Covid put a lot of wrenches in the works.    

[ontheweb]

So the federal government mandated it, but I bet the states were supposed to fund it.

 

OTOH, it serves the states right for what they do to schools with their unfunded mandates.

[Essiesmom]

I wonder what the difference in cost to issue a Real ID DL, and the standard type?  I don’t know when my state started issuing Real ID licenses, but I know I didn’t have to request it.  When I changed my address in 2014, the new license was Real ID.  All DL expire.  Just issue all the new ones as Real ID.  EM

[ldubs]

20 minutes ago, Essiesmom said:

I wonder what the difference in cost to issue a Real ID DL, and the standard type?  I don’t know when my state started issuing Real ID licenses, but I know I didn’t have to request it.  When I changed my address in 2014, the new license was Real ID.  All DL expire.  Just issue all the new ones as Real ID.  EM

 

Real ID has been available in my state since only 2018.  It is currently still optional.  Can't automatically convert to Real ID at expiration because there are people renewing DLs who do not qualify for a Real ID.    

[navybankerteacher]

2 hours ago, ldubs said:

 

Well, my state doesn't seem overly concerned about Federal law, but that is an entirely different discussion that would likely not be allowed here on CC. 

 

I do agree that a uniform ID is a good thing to have.   At the same time, I think the covid issue that Charles4515 mentions is a valid reason to delay implementation.   Covid put a lot of wrenches in the works.    

Covid was just the most recent excuse trotted out.  This basic, rather sensible, requirement has been in the works for many years (SINCE ENACTED IN 2005).

 

 The basic problem is that no one -- people in state government or individual schlub - feels it is necessary to get his/their act together and just do the DAMN THING, as long as the nannies running things let them get away with not complying.   HOW THE HELL LONG SHOULD IT TAKE TO IMPLEMENT A WORKABLE IDENTIFICATION PROGRAM?

Edited December 6, 2022 by navybankerteacher

[ldubs]

5 minutes ago, navybankerteacher said:

Covid was just the most recent excuse trotted out.  This basic, rather sensible, requirement has been in the works for many years. The basic problem is that no one- state government or individual schlub - feels it is necessary to get his/their act together and just do the DAMN THING, as long as the nannies running things let them get away with not complying.   HOW THE HELL LONG SHOULD IT TAKE TO IMPLEMENT A WORKABLE IDENTIFICATION PROGRAM?

 

I tend to agree with your comments other than I think COVID was a valid reason among a sea of other excuses.   

 

All I know is, I intend to be no where near an airport on the day it finally happens.   haha.  

Edited December 6, 2022 by ldubs

[Charles4515]

1 hour ago, Essiesmom said:

I wonder what the difference in cost to issue a Real ID DL, and the standard type?  I don’t know when my state started issuing Real ID licenses, but I know I didn’t have to request it.  When I changed my address in 2014, the new license was Real ID.  All DL expire.  Just issue all the new ones as Real ID.  EM

A Real ID DL requires additional prrof of identity and address. For example a passport or birth certificate. Proof of address like a utility bill, or car registration  Proof of status, i.e. a social security card. In both states I got Real ID DL in they scanned the documents into their computer. Before Real ID we got our renewed DL immediately at the office. The Real ID DL had to be mailed.to us. So there would be additional manpower costs. Plus the Real ID licence not only has the Star, it has additional security features and probably more info embedded,

Edited December 6, 2022 by Charles4515

[njhorseman]

57 minutes ago, Essiesmom said:

I wonder what the difference in cost to issue a Real ID DL, and the standard type?  I don’t know when my state started issuing Real ID licenses, but I know I didn’t have to request it.  When I changed my address in 2014, the new license was Real ID.  All DL expire.  Just issue all the new ones as Real ID.  EM

Per the Georgia Department of Driver Services all permanent licenses issued in Georgia after 2012 are REAL ID compliant, so your state mandated it...you didn't request it.  The first time after 2012 that you renewed your license you must have been required to submit the additional documentation necessary to issue a REAL ID license.

As has been noted, some states, including NJ where I live, don't mandate that you have a REAL ID license. I have just an ordinary license and whenever REAL ID is finally mandated by DHS I'll use my passport card or Global Entry card for domestic flights .  

[Charles4515]

21 minutes ago, navybankerteacher said:

 

 The basic problem is that no one -- people in state government or individual schlub - feels it is necessary to get his/their act together and just do the DAMN THING, as long as the nannies running things let them get away with not complying.   HOW THE HELL LONG SHOULD IT TAKE TO IMPLEMENT A WORKABLE IDENTIFICATION PROGRAM?

 

There was/is political opposition to a national ID program on both the right and left.  The federal government workaround was to make it about domestic air travel. The federal government could not force the states to issue Real ID DL.  It was not getting away with anything not complying. They did not have to. The states grudingly have given in and issued Real ID because the federal governmet  controls who can board airplanes. So the states are forced to offer Real ID so their citizens could travel by air. Some states only offer Real ID DL and others offer it as an option. 

[Charles4515]

1 hour ago, ldubs said:

 Can't automatically convert to Real ID at expiration because there are people renewing DLs who do not qualify for a Real ID.  

Some states issue DL's to immigrants without legal US status. Those people can not get Real ID DLs. 

[navybankerteacher]

57 minutes ago, Charles4515 said:

 

There was/is political opposition to a national ID program on both the right and left.  The federal government workaround was to make it about domestic air travel. The federal government could not force the states to issue Real ID DL.  It was not getting away with anything not complying. They did not have to. The states grudingly have given in and issued Real ID because the federal governmet  controls who can board airplanes. So the states are forced to offer Real ID so their citizens could travel by air. Some states only offer Real ID DL and others offer it as an option. 

But the Federal Government (who has responsibility for air travel security) failed to play grown-up.  If it was made clear that if you wanted to fly, you had to have some "Real ID" the states got away with failing to act -- if enough voters in any non-complying state were unable to fly without a passport (which many did not want to pay for) they would have voted in their states to get something done.

 

They did'nt!

 

17 years after it was decided that some sort of Real ID was necessary, we still don't have it!   What pathetic BS!  

Edited December 6, 2022 by navybankerteacher

[ldubs]

56 minutes ago, Charles4515 said:

Some states issue DL's to immigrants without legal US status. Those people can not get Real ID DLs. 

 

Yep, that would include my state and was what I meant by not qualify for a real ID.   

[Charles4515]

13 minutes ago, navybankerteacher said:

But the Federal Government (who has responsibility for air travel security) failed to play grown-up.  If it was made clear that if you wanted to fly, you had to have some "Real ID" the states got away with failing to act -- if enough voters in any non-complying state were unable to fly without a passport (which many did not want to pay for) they would have voted in their states to get something done.

 

They did'nt!

 

17 years after it was decided that some sort of Real ID was necessary, we still don't have it!   What pathetic BS!  

 

Maybe Real ID was not necessary. Not having it after 17 years possibly proves it was not. 

 

So you favor coercing the voters to get it implemented. 

[ldubs]

11 minutes ago, Charles4515 said:

 

Maybe Real ID was not necessary. Not having it after 17 years possibly proves it was not. 

 

So you favor coercing the voters to get it implemented. 

 

To be fair, many folks don't travel and many folks are not going to fly very often.  Real ID is way down the priority list for them.  To get this done is going to take a certain amount of friendly coercion.   I continue to think a uniform ID system is a good idea.  

[Charles4515]

4 minutes ago, ldubs said:

 

To be fair, many folks don't travel and many folks are not going to fly very often.  Real ID is way down the priority list for them.  To get this done is going to take a certain amount of friendly coercion.   I continue to think a uniform ID system is a good idea.  

Americans have been traditionally against having a National ID.  There are constitutional issues involved, 4th amendemnt, right of privacy, and 1st amendement, freedom of association, i.e. not having to produce ID on request.  

[donaldsc]

14 minutes ago, ldubs said:

 

To be fair, many folks don't travel and many folks are not going to fly very often.  Real ID is way down the priority list for them.  To get this done is going to take a certain amount of friendly coercion.   I continue to think a uniform ID system is a good idea.  

 

I agree that most folks don't travel and/or fly.  However if the government and the airlines make it clear that nobody is going to get on an airplane anywhere in the US regardless of the need or the severe emergency it might induce some holdouts to get the Read ID.  And I mean that regardless of the emergency - death in the family, a sick child, your dog is dying, anything - you do not get on any means of interstate commerce.  

 

DON

[ldubs]

5 minutes ago, Charles4515 said:

Americans have been traditionally against having a National ID.  There are constitutional issues involved, 4th amendemnt, right of privacy, and 1st amendement, freedom of association, i.e. not having to produce ID on request.  

 

I would say I was one of them (against national id).  But times have changed enough for me to change my mind.  

[ldubs]

1 minute ago, donaldsc said:

 

I agree that most folks don't travel and/or fly.  However if the government and the airlines make it clear that nobody is going to get on an airplane anywhere in the US regardless of the need or the severe emergency it might induce some holdouts to get the Read ID.  And I mean that regardless of the emergency - death in the family, a sick child, your dog is dying, anything - you do not get on any means of interstate commerce.  

 

DON

 

I think we are saying the same thing.  Though to be truthful, a sick child gets special handling in my book.  

[GeezerCouple]

24 minutes ago, Charles4515 said:

 

Maybe Real ID was not necessary. Not having it after 17 years possibly proves it was not. 

 

So you favor coercing the voters to get it implemented. 

 

2 minutes ago, Charles4515 said:

Americans have been traditionally against having a National ID.  There are constitutional issues involved, 4th amendemnt, right of privacy, and 1st amendement, freedom of association, i.e. not having to produce ID on request.  

 

Why is this any different from any previous version of a drivers license?  Are people coerced into getting those?  They don't "need" to get them unless they want to drive.

Similarly, they wouldn't need a "Real ID" if they don't want to fly, etc. (or anything else that particular ID is required for).

 

Unfortunately, the idea of personal privacy has become a bit of a joke, with just about everything already available on the dark web, and much of it on the regular visible web.

Whether I, or others, prefer the "privacy of days of yore" is irrelevant.  That ship sailed quite some time ago.

As did a lot of the feelings of general safety.

But needing a particular ID for driving for flying is *not* the same as 'needing to carry one's papers with one at all times".

 

(I think back to my younger days, say, 60 years ago.  Children would run around the neighborhood, go to their friends homes, and either come home pretty much on time for dinner, or call to ask if they could stay for dinner with the friend.  Many people never locked their doors, something that I now find completely baffling...  But "those were the days...")

 

Nowadays, I'm more concerned about safety issues (sometimes of alarming concerns) than I had been in the past, and not necessarily going back half a century or more.

Times have change, alas.

 

GC