Looking for accurate info on ports and ship size

[cruisemom42]

One of HAL's strong points in the past couple of decades or so (when other mass market lines have overtaken them in ship size) has been the ability to visit smaller and more exotic ports.  However, with HAL ship size also increasing since Pinnacle class, and the number of smaller ships shrinking during the Covid shutdown, is this still a valid claim?

 

I recognize that there are ports a 700 passenger ship can visit that a (let's say) 1200 passenger ship cannot. Asia has a number of these -- such as being able to dock IN Bangkok rather than 2 or more hours away, and the same with Ho Chi Minh City (Saigon). 

 

Even a ship the size of Westerdam docked in a lot of ports in Japan that were industrial. And ships are no longer providing complimentary shuttles into town.

 

In Europe, only smaller ships (e.g., under 1,000 more or less) can sail up the Guadalquivir river to Seville or dock close to Bordeaux rather than at one of the ports that is farther away. In looking at cruise calendars for these two ports I only see small ships (Azamara, Oceania R-class, Silver Sea, Windstar).

 

So -- if HAL's fleet is now primarily 2,000 passengers and up, are there still any port advantages to sailing on a "smaller than average" mass market ship?  

 

(Note: I'm only asking about ports. I fully get the advantages of sailing on a "smaller" than 4,000 passenger ship when it comes to the onboard experience....)

 

[AncientWanderer]

Focusing on what I think you asked, there are a couple of other considerations with ship size, and why we are absolutely maxed out with HAL's new-builds. One is the logistical nightmare of processing so many people on and off the ship.   It's not too bad with HAL's kinda, sorta smaller ships.  Any bigger, it's just lines and more lines.  Two, all those extra people are milling about the port area, creating more lines at coffee shops, etc.  That diminishes the port stop experience.

 

A smaller ship would always be better. But price always has to be factored in, too.  If port and ship size, and price can't meet comfortably, I'd just as soon stay home.

[AncientWanderer]

Just thought of another advantage to these more luxurious lines you are looking at.  Often they stay in port for the evening, allowing one to enjoy the magic of nighttime, have a special dinner, should you choose to do so.  Something to consider...

[BermudaBound2014]

3 minutes ago, AncientWanderer said:

Just thought of another advantage to these more luxurious lines you are looking at.  Often they stay in port for the evening, allowing one to enjoy the magic of nighttime, have a special dinner, should you choose to do so.  Something to consider...

 

Interesting point. I'm not sure if this is new to HAL or same ol', but my 35 day HAL next year has 4 overnight stops. That was one of the reasons I was attracted to this particular itinerary. Well, that and price, which is a fraction of the luxury lines. 

[AncientWanderer]

5 minutes ago, BermudaBound2014 said:

 

Interesting point. I'm not sure if this is new to HAL or same ol', but my 35 day HAL next year has 4 overnight stops. That was one of the reasons I was attracted to this particular itinerary. Well, that and price, which is a fraction of the luxury lines. 

 

I did see that HAL announced they will be doing more overnights.  This is very good news and definitely something to keep an eye on.  Four overnights is awesome.

[cbr663]

I think HAL has certainly lost its ability to visit smaller ports with its increasing ship sizes.  Your recent experience on the Westerdam with docking in industrial ports and having to incur charges to shuttle out of them illustrates for me that while HAL is trying to find a work around, it isn't always a great one.

 

We've recently returned from an Alaska cruise on the Koningsdam and faced head on the impact of many larger ships in port at the same time.  We last sailed to Alaska in 2014 on the Volendam at the beginning of the season mid-week.  We were the only ship in port and the ship wasn't at capacity.  It was a wonderful cruise.

 

This past May the Koningsdam sailed the traditional weekend route.  The ship was at full capacity and in every port we tied up beside 3 - 4 other large ships from Princess, HAL and X.  It was a marketably different port experience and the whole experience has me now reevaluating how we will cruise moving forward.  DW and I have had lots of discussion on it since returning.  We haven't come to a consensus yet, but we have agreed that the cruise we booked onboard for Norway next year on another Pinnacle Class ship will be cancelled.

[OlsSalt]

Once in Singapore (another cruise line), we docked in the passenger terminal for a two day visit only to find during the night we had moved to the industrial port the next day. Shuttles were provided.

 

Ship size works both ways -some ports make more money letting the larger ships take  the prime docking location and send the smaller ones to less desirable locations, others reject them on sheer size and lack of capacity. Or communities like the smaller ones, but prohibit the larger ones

 

Or bribe demands can even cross hands up front. You can never know for sure. Or with any guarantee of when you will find out for certain.

[AncientWanderer]

18 minutes ago, OlsSalt said:

Once in Singapore (another cruise line), we docked in the passenger terminal for a two day visit only to find during the night we had moved to the industrial port the next day. Shuttles were provided.

 

Ship size works both ways -some ports make more money letting the larger ships take  the prime docking location and send the smaller ones to less desirable locations, others reject them on sheer size and lack of capacity. Or communities like the smaller ones, but prohibit the larger ones

 

Or bribe demands can even cross hands up front. You can never know for sure. Or with any guarantee of when you will find out for certain.

 

That's really interesting about Singapore.  And all the other potential pitfalls you bring up make a lot of sense.  

We've spent time looking at various cruise line itineraries and then going to port schedules to see where the ships are slotted in.  That a good berth could be switched up to a bad one is pretty discouraging.

[kazu]

I still see some interesting ports on itineraries but those are mainly on the Vista or Rotterdam class.

 

Honestly, HAL lost a lot of great ports and great port locations when they lost the Prinsendam.  On her we docked right in downtown Bordeaux.  Fabulous!  At the little port near Alfama in LIsbon.  Would have sailed up the river to Seville except for the silt, Tendered so close to Bantry we could have swum there (other ships would have had to shuttle for over an hour).  Tendered so close in Cobh with the sailing ships it was incredible.

 

It’s a long list and wonderful experiences.  At the captain’s dinner, the officer said with her sale HAL lost 50 ports.  I replied - more like 200 and he agreed saying I was very close.

 

But, so far, I am finding nice itineraries so we’ll see as time goes by.  🤞 

[cruisemom42]

Thanks for the replies. I was thinking of ports where it is physically impossible for larger ships to dock -- and there are a number of those -- @kazu thanks for mentioning a few more. I also realized that at least 4 of the ports on my upcoming Azamara (Med) and Oceania (Iceland/Greenland/Canada) cruises are not accessible to larger ships. And one, Bar Harbor, will soon be unavailable to larger ships as well.

 

I don't think I've ever experienced being knocked out of a prime docking spot by a larger ship. Can't imagine it is very widespread. Is bribery for spots rampant?  Not sure. Perhaps someone with experience like @Heidi13 could enlighten....

 

Also I had forgotten about some communities limiting the number of cruise passengers allowed per day (or not allowing ships over a certain size).

 

 

[Heidi13]

16 minutes ago, cruisemom42 said:

Thanks for the replies. I was thinking of ports where it is physically impossible for larger ships to dock -- and there are a number of those -- @kazu thanks for mentioning a few more. I also realized that at least 4 of the ports on my upcoming Azamara (Med) and Oceania (Iceland/Greenland/Canada) cruises are not accessible to larger ships. And one, Bar Harbor, will soon be unavailable to larger ships as well.

 

I don't think I've ever experienced being knocked out of a prime docking spot by a larger ship. Can't imagine it is very widespread. Is bribery for spots rampant?  Not sure. Perhaps someone with experience like @Heidi13 could enlighten....

 

Also I had forgotten about some communities limiting the number of cruise passengers allowed per day (or not allowing ships over a certain size).

 

 

Unfortunately that is an area of the business I have had no involvement. I suspect it will be based on contracts and when reservations were made, rather than ship size.

[AncientWanderer]

8 hours ago, cruisemom42 said:

 

 

So -- if HAL's fleet is now primarily 2,000 passengers and up, are there still any port advantages to sailing on a "smaller than average" mass market ship?  

 

 

 

 

Oh, I'm sorry.  I misunderstood your post.  I tried to answer this part quoted here.

I do believe HAL's ships still have some advantages over the megas.

 

As far as ports where big ships can't come in, it's probably like Kazu said, innumerable.  And in places like Japan, some parts of Europe, I've noticed that the small ships have totally different itineraries than larger ships.  Whether the "small port" places they visit are better or worse than the places reached via industrial ports on larger ships, that probably has to be determined on a case-by-case basis.  

Complicated!

 

[Kamfish642]

8 hours ago, cruisemom42 said:

One of HAL's strong points in the past couple of decades or so (when other mass market lines have overtaken them in ship size) has been the ability to visit smaller and more exotic ports.  However, with HAL ship size also increasing since Pinnacle class, and the number of smaller ships shrinking during the Covid shutdown, is this still a valid claim?

 

I recognize that there are ports a 700 passenger ship can visit that a (let's say) 1200 passenger ship cannot. Asia has a number of these -- such as being able to dock IN Bangkok rather than 2 or more hours away, and the same with Ho Chi Minh City (Saigon). 

 

Even a ship the size of Westerdam docked in a lot of ports in Japan that were industrial. And ships are no longer providing complimentary shuttles into town.

 

In Europe, only smaller ships (e.g., under 1,000 more or less) can sail up the Guadalquivir river to Seville or dock close to Bordeaux rather than at one of the ports that is farther away. In looking at cruise calendars for these two ports I only see small ships (Azamara, Oceania R-class, Silver Sea, Windstar).

 

So -- if HAL's fleet is now primarily 2,000 passengers and up, are there still any port advantages to sailing on a "smaller than average" mass market ship?  

 

(Note: I'm only asking about ports. I fully get the advantages of sailing on a "smaller" than 4,000 passenger ship when it comes to the onboard experience....)

 

Seabourn is under Holland American chain of command for CCL, with sips in the under 100 passenger range.  I doubt HAL is going to compete with Seabourn.

[cruisemom42]

13 minutes ago, Kamfish642 said:

Seabourn is under Holland American chain of command for CCL, with sips in the under 100 passenger range.  I doubt HAL is going to compete with Seabourn.

 

Sorry -- I wasn't trying to suggest that HAL should compete with Seabourn. Merely going through an evaluation process about cruising in general and the value of cruising larger vs. smaller ships. 
 

I feel HAL tries to sell itself as having advantages -- with its "smallest fleet among the mass market lines" claims -- that may, in fact, no longer exist with the exit of so many of HAL's smaller ships.

 

Also -- Seabourn ships carry more than 100 passengers. The Encore and Ovation each carry about 600; Odyssey, Sojourn and Quest carry about 450 passengers.

 

The expedition ships are a different matter and aren't really comparable to standard cruise ships.

 

[Destiny0315]

1 hour ago, cruisemom42 said:

I don't think I've ever experienced being knocked out of a prime docking spot by a larger ship. Can't imagine it is very widespread. Is bribery for spots rampant?

After having the main dock at Sydney, Nova Scotia all to itself for the first three weeks of the 2023 season the HAL Zaandam had to play second fiddle(🙂) to the NCL Prima on May 17th and docked at the secondary Liberty Pier. It was a raw rainy day and the extra long walk for HAL passengers probably kept some from leaving the ship at all. The top left pic shows the view from the little Z of the Prima and the bottom right pic shows a closeup of one of the Prima's tenders/lifeboats which has a capacity of 355 pax which means that just 4 of them could basically hold all the pax on the Z!! (4 x 355=1420!!). We did get back on our onboard accounts $71 in port fees/taxes at the end of the cruise which I suspect was because of this. 

[cruisemom42]

24 minutes ago, Destiny0315 said:

After having the main dock at Sydney, Nova Scotia all to itself for the first three weeks of the 2023 season the HAL Zaandam had to play second fiddle(🙂) to the NCL Prima on May 17th and docked at the secondary Liberty Pier. It was a raw rainy day and the extra long walk for HAL passengers probably kept some from leaving the ship at all. The top left pic shows the view from the little Z of the Prima and the bottom right pic shows a closeup of one of the Prima's tenders/lifeboats which has a capacity of 355 pax which means that just 4 of them could basically hold all the pax on the Z!! (4 x 355=1420!!). We did get back on our onboard accounts $71 in port fees/taxes at the end of the cruise which I suspect was because of this. 

 

I guess, in thinking about it, that there are a number of reasons this could happen that are not necessarily related to the size of the ship. Perhaps NCL booked the berth first on that date and HAL had to work around it. Perhaps NCL has a larger overall presence there (or has been calling there longer) than HAL. And so on...

 

At any rate, I am less interested in differences in berth locations in ports relative to ship size....more interested in what ports small ships can visit that large ships cannot.

[Destiny0315]

From the Sydney port schedule. The Prima was heading across to Europe and this was it's first time in Sydney(hence the *). NCL rarely has a ship docking here until the Fall season.

Edited June 11, 2023 by Destiny0315

[AncientWanderer]

46 minutes ago, Destiny0315 said:

After having the main dock at Sydney, Nova Scotia all to itself for the first three weeks of the 2023 season the HAL Zaandam had to play second fiddle(🙂) to the NCL Prima on May 17th and docked at the secondary Liberty Pier. It was a raw rainy day and the extra long walk for HAL passengers probably kept some from leaving the ship at all. The top left pic shows the view from the little Z of the Prima and the bottom right pic shows a closeup of one of the Prima's tenders/lifeboats which has a capacity of 355 pax which means that just 4 of them could basically hold all the pax on the Z!! (4 x 355=1420!!). We did get back on our onboard accounts $71 in port fees/taxes at the end of the cruise which I suspect was because of this. 

 

We were surprised to be sent down the street in Ketchikan, while a humongous RCCL ship had the choice berth in the center of town.  Even though we sailed in ahead of them.  I'd always heard that HAL has first dibs in Alaska.  No big deal, as it is only a short walk anyhow, but still, it was a wake-up call.

[cruisemom42]

Still possible that the other lines reserved the space first, yes?

 

Can we return to my question please?

 

 

[AncientWanderer]

6 minutes ago, cruisemom42 said:

Still possible that the other lines reserved the space first, yes?

 

Can we return to my question please?

 

 

 

You'd probably do better posting it on one of the "small ship" threads.  They'll tell you about the places they visit.  Most here haven't been there.

[Guest ldtr]

Big difference between what size ship can reach some of the more city centric docks  and who determines what ships goes where in a port that can handle large ships.

 

There is also the question about even if a ship could dock in a center city port would they?  Would such docks command a higher fee and have other associated costs than one further out?  Would a mass market line be willing to deal with higher costs, that a premium line would be more willing to pay.  I do not think that there is any specific answer.  What happens with 1 ship on 1 cruise might not happen in the same way the next.  We have seen at some ports, in Alaska for example, where the mass market ships are at docks, while the more premium ships are tendering in.  (saw this with Oceania and Regent last year)

 

I would suspect that decisions would involve more than if a given ship could fit, but also about any infrastructure and agreements that a cruise line might have in place.  In many countries the industrial ports are the norm.  The ports where passengers can not walk outside of the port are more likely to have some kind of low cost shuttle (often provided by the local town), if for no other reason than to enable passengers to reach local businesses.
 

I would expect the biggest factor with ship size is more what itineraries they end up doing, with the number of different ports, not the question of exactly where they will dock if a visit a given city.  The bigger the average size the more limited the itineraries tend to be and the shorter the average cruise lengths tend to be.

Edited June 11, 2023 by ldtr

[cruisemom42]

26 minutes ago, AncientWanderer said:

 

You'd probably do better posting it on one of the "small ship" threads.  They'll tell you about the places they visit.  Most here haven't been there.

 

I doubt small ship forums are likely to tell me what ports HAL ships can no longer visit. 

 

I'm sure there are still a few cruisers around on this board who recall ports like Ponza -- am I right @kazu??

 

I guess not everyone is like me (this is called a "moment of self-realization"). I don't see the point of sailing longer itineraries necessarily if they just visit the same old ports you've already visited on shorter cruises and that other cruise lines routinely visit.

[BermudaBound2014]

44 minutes ago, cruisemom42 said:

Still possible that the other lines reserved the space first, yes?

 

Can we return to my question please?

 

 

or did they just pay more? 
 

 

[kazu]

21 minutes ago, cruisemom42 said:

 

I doubt small ship forums are likely to tell me what ports HAL ships can no longer visit. 

 

I'm sure there are still a few cruisers around on this board who recall ports like Ponza -- am I right @kazu??

 

I guess not everyone is like me (this is called a "moment of self-realization"). I don't see the point of sailing longer itineraries necessarily if they just visit the same old ports you've already visited on shorter cruises and that other cruise lines routinely visit.

 

You have one good memory.  Yes Ponza was on our itinerary in 2019 on the Elegant Explorer.   Fabulous place.

 

One of the joys of that ship was it’s fabulous itineraries and the other it’s crew and the ship, itself.

 

My biggest regret was that it took me so long to book it due to it’s price and my concern of it’s age for DD DH.  He loved that ship within 10 minutes of being on board.  Booking cruises after was easy.  As soon as I started to talk to him about an itinerary - he would say “let me guess with that itinerary it’s on the Prinsendam” and then said book it.  LOL.

 

That being said I found an itinerary that appealed for next year and this year’s will be a nice deserved break (if I say so myself).

 

 

[Guest ldtr]

59 minutes ago, cruisemom42 said:

 

I doubt small ship forums are likely to tell me what ports HAL ships can no longer visit. 

 

I'm sure there are still a few cruisers around on this board who recall ports like Ponza -- am I right @kazu??

 

I guess not everyone is like me (this is called a "moment of self-realization"). I don't see the point of sailing longer itineraries necessarily if they just visit the same old ports you've already visited on shorter cruises and that other cruise lines routinely visit.

Except they are not visiting the same ports.  Most of the places are not visited by their competition.  Many of them are not even reached by those shorter cruises.

 

Pretty straight forward to look at the list of ports each of the main stream lines hit and see how many of them are the same.

 

For example HAL shows 526 different destinations including ports and cruising destinations.

Edited June 11, 2023 by ldtr