Westerdam took the wrong route - is this fair compensation ?

[jeh10641]

22 hours ago, Fouremco said:

Other than the potential privacy and security issues, adding my name to a post would contribute nothing to the discussion.

 

BTW, something else that you always seem to do is compose your posts in bold. Any particular reason? Just curious.

Yes there is a reason. It shows up better on my computer so I can read what I write.

Jim

[jeh10641]

Is it possible that the "outside passage" is more applicable to sailings into Victoria and the "inside" route is more for Vancouver port calls?

Jim

[TheMichael]

Going to agree with most others that 10% FCC is a more-than-generous bonus for this, especially, as others have also said, that the value of the inside passage vs. the west coast of Vancouver Island is debatable (with the sole exception that the western path can be much rougher when the weather is bad).

 

Also, regardless what the Captain said (he may have been valiantly shouldering the blame), if it were a simple mistake on the crew's part, the guide would still have been booked far in advance and not unavailable. Such things are not spur-of-the-moment. 

 

Also (and this may have been covered, excuse if it has), it's odd that Victoria seems to have been a planned part of your itinerary - it isn't normally included on inside-passage runs that end in Vancouver. If it was part of the itinerary when you booked or in subsequent messages, that would perhaps be a clue that HAL actually (mistakenly) had the ship taking the westernmost route long before the crew were even certain. It's most likely that the captain didn't see HAL's error until the last minute...which might have been on him, I guess.

 

Cruise lines don't give compensation when whole ports are missed, much less a slightly different route taken. Consider this a big win.

[TheMichael]

On 5/14/2024 at 8:28 AM, stevenr597 said:

As a cruiser for many years, we have noticed significant cutbacks in the quality of service on board both Princess and Celebrity after Covid.

Sadly, this is a situation we have seen staying in hotels and dining out.

It is one of the signs that we, as of yet, have not fully recovered from the effects of the Covid Shutdown. 

 

I think the record profits being realized by the tourism industry in general suggest that any "recovery" is being made on the backs of travelers.

[CruiserBruce]

10 minutes ago, TheMichael said:

 

I think the record profits being realized by the tourism industry in general suggest that any "recovery" is being made on the backs of travelers.

Where else does the revenue for the tourist industry come from?

[TheMichael]

17 minutes ago, CruiserBruce said:

Where else does the revenue for the tourist industry come from?

 

I'm sorry I didn't make the point more obvious - record revenues being made despite cutbacks in almost every area should have rung a bell, but I'll explain:

 

You see, in business, normally cutbacks indicate a lack of profit from current customers. However, the tourism industry is currently enjoying record numbers of customers; business has never been so good. Yet even so, the industry is cutting back in every way possible while charging more. Immediate shareholder value over long-term goodwill.

 

To elaborate further, IMO if history shows anything, it's that this will not end well for the industry, with people (especially Americans) putting much of their "revenge travel" on credit, and those being the customers who really didn't care about the cutbacks. The rest of us who travel regularly have already become more discerning, but it didn't matter while everyone else was buying up those hotel rooms and airplane seats and cruise ship cabins, making it a double whammy when the credit comes due and the YOLO money dries up.

Edited May 15 by TheMichael

[AncientWanderer]

1 hour ago, TheMichael said:

Going to agree with most others that 10% FCC is a more-than-generous bonus for this, especially, as others have also said, that the value of the inside passage vs. the west coast of Vancouver Island is debatable (with the sole exception that the western path can be much rougher when the weather is bad).

 

Also, regardless what the Captain said (he may have been valiantly shouldering the blame), if it were a simple mistake on the crew's part, the guide would still have been booked far in advance and not unavailable. Such things are not spur-of-the-moment. 

 

Also (and this may have been covered, excuse if it has), it's odd that Victoria seems to have been a planned part of your itinerary - it isn't normally included on inside-passage runs that end in Vancouver. If it was part of the itinerary when you booked or in subsequent messages, that would perhaps be a clue that HAL actually (mistakenly) had the ship taking the westernmost route long before the crew were even certain. It's most likely that the captain didn't see HAL's error until the last minute...which might have been on him, I guess.

 

Cruise lines don't give compensation when whole ports are missed, much less a slightly different route taken. Consider this a big win.

 

Thanks for your thoughtful post.  If I'm reading correctly, there's one thing I'd point out.  This cruise ended in Seattle, not Vancouver.

[Mary229]

@TheMichael  I absolutely agree that discerning travelers are waiting.  We have done most of my husband’s list which we bought at great rates months if not years ago.  Besides our hot weather getaways we are watching and waiting.  Road travel has already slowed down and that is our direction while we wait it out. 

[TheMichael]

Just now, AncientWanderer said:

Thanks for your thoughtful post.  If I'm reading correctly, there's one thing I'd point out.  This cruise ended in Seattle, not Vancouver.

 

Okay, thanks. I was going off HAL's future itineraries for the Japan-Alaska route, which all end in Vancouver. (Maybe that was the confusion, and possibly why they haven't scheduled one that ends in Seattle for the next couple of years?)

[jeh10641]

1 hour ago, TheMichael said:

 

I think the record profits being realized by the tourism industry in general suggest that any "recovery" is being made on the backs of travelers.

Despite record sales and profits, most the major companies are saddled with Billions of dollars of debt due the Pandemic. Whatever paper profits are being made most of it is going to pay down debt. Thus the shortages of staff and purported lack of service and food quality. On our Royal transatlantic trip in October I saw no lack of anything. Food and service were excellent. 

Jim

[stevenr597]

2 hours ago, TheMichael said:

 

I think the record profits being realized by the tourism industry in general suggest that any "recovery" is being made on the backs of travelers.

The Tourist Agency is making profits again.  But in respect to the cruise industry, staying at Cocoa Beach during the Pandemic, I saw numerous ships having to sit, one mile off the coast, being maintained with no income coming in.

Unlike the airlines, they received no government compensation.

It will be years before they regain what they lost. 

[TheMichael]

14 minutes ago, jeh10641 said:

Despite record sales and profits, most the major companies are saddled with Billions of dollars of debt due the Pandemic.

 

This part is kind of "cry me a river." We all suffered during the pandemic (well, except the tech companies, but they have their own related stuff to answer for).

 

The cruise lines are continuing to take on debt, now to expand for the new customers and, as I discussed, are treating the current wave of record-breaking travel like a stream that will never dry up. 

 

Something to think about: if their stated changes are solely to make up for pandemic losses, their plan should be to immediately change things back once they've recouped the losses, right? Has anyone anywhere stated that? (Answer: of course not, because they're not going back.)

 

 

14 minutes ago, jeh10641 said:

Whatever paper profits are being made most of it is going to pay down debt. Thus the shortages of staff and purported lack of service and food quality. On our Royal transatlantic trip in October I saw no lack of anything. Food and service were excellent. 

 

This is one spot where we don't disagree too much, but then again, I like the simpler things in life. Give me a double shot of espresso, a deck chair facing the ocean, and a warm breeze in my hair (or a rainy sea day, seat by a window, and a lot more espresso) and I'm good. I can find something tasty in any dining venue, and anyone who can serve me with a smile is appreciated. 

 

I do see the cutbacks though. One cleaning per day means fewer stewards needed. Staffing at counters doesn't seem to be quite enough to handle all but quiet times (moreso on other lines than HAL, but the issue is industry-wide). And the upsell on HAL in particular seems to be especially aggressive (I've never felt so pressured to get studio photos - I could write a whole post on that).

[Mary229]

@TheMichael  I understand your POV but I think HAL has set a bifurcated course.  If you sail their grands or new “legendary voyages” which do cost more per diem you will get much of the old standards of food, service and entertainment .  Their other sailings with a few exceptions (Antartica journey spring to mind) you are going to get very main stream mass market.  Why not? In popular markets they are charging the same as Carnival or Norwegian on their 7-10 day sailings. The only differentiation are the slight cultural differences you see between mass markets.  They can use that market to pay the bills and expand their reach. When I was in business I had 3 streams of revenue and each was treated differently according to service needs and profit.  It was the profitable method, it allows quick nimble moves as when the market changes.   The business is  already playing in different fields and doesn’t need to invent a program for each new trend. 
 

PS. The savvy consumer figures out where to buy.  

Edited May 15 by Mary229

[jeh10641]

27 minutes ago, TheMichael said:

 

This part is kind of "cry me a river." We all suffered during the pandemic (well, except the tech companies, but they have their own related stuff to answer for).

 

The cruise lines are continuing to take on debt, now to expand for the new customers and, as I discussed, are treating the current wave of record-breaking travel like a stream that will never dry up. 

 

Something to think about: if their stated changes are solely to make up for pandemic losses, their plan should be to immediately change things back once they've recouped the losses, right? Has anyone anywhere stated that? (Answer: of course not, because they're not going back.)

 

 

 

This is one spot where we don't disagree too much, but then again, I like the simpler things in life. Give me a double shot of espresso, a deck chair facing the ocean, and a warm breeze in my hair (or a rainy sea day, seat by a window, and a lot more espresso) and I'm good. I can find something tasty in any dining venue, and anyone who can serve me with a smile is appreciated. 

 

I do see the cutbacks though. One cleaning per day means fewer stewards needed. Staffing at counters doesn't seem to be quite enough to handle all but quiet times (moreso on other lines than HAL, but the issue is industry-wide). And the upsell on HAL in particular seems to be especially aggressive (I've never felt so pressured to get studio photos - I could write a whole post on that).

I heard that HAL is still offering twice a day cabin service. Is that true? Or does it vary by ship/ market?

Jim

[TheMichael]

1 minute ago, jeh10641 said:

I heard that HAL is still offering twice a day cabin service. Is that true? Or does it vary by ship/ market?

 

On the Westerdam to Alaska in September we were asked on the first day whether we needed twice-a-day service. (When put that way, I wonder how many people say they don't even if they would prefer turn-down.)

[Mary229]

15 minutes ago, jeh10641 said:

I heard that HAL is still offering twice a day cabin service. Is that true? Or does it vary by ship/ market?

Jim

It seems to be ship dependent.Some ships ask, some don’t , twice is always available .  This started back in 2019.   I prefer once a day but I get twice no matter how I respond. 

[ShipsAreTheBest]

7 hours ago, Fouremco said:

As HAL and multiple other lines have cruises departing and/or returning to Vancouver at this time of year that use the inner passage, I doubt that the currents are the cause of the Westerdam's changed itinerary.

Transiting down the east side of Vancouver Island (the inside passage route) requires passing through Seymour Narrows - and has to be done at nearly slack water. It is a challenging route and requires timing (and pilots).  Oh, and if you don’t make the Narrows at the right time, the arrival time at Victoria is endangered.  Yes, cruise ships travel that route all the time, but if there were no pilots available, you weren’t going that way.  Out into the Pacific and down the west side of the island it is…

[CruiserBruce]

58 minutes ago, jeh10641 said:

I heard that HAL is still offering twice a day cabin service. Is that true? Or does it vary by ship/ market?

Jim

Yes, its true. You will have a choice when you board. 

[cccole]

Should there possibly be a new thread re the changes in service/or not?   I hope the Op has received some good answers to this thread.  It's been interesting to read and such different opinions.  Thanks to those that were on the cruise that responded!!  Just because you've cruised this inside passage before and it was foggy does not really matter for this cruise.   Just because you would prefer to cruise on the west side of the island doesn't really matter or make the Op and those who planned on cruising the east side of the island think "wow" I never thought of that.  There have been some very good responses re whether the compensation is fair.  JMO   Cherie   

Edited May 16 by cccole

[oakridger]

3 hours ago, jeh10641 said:

I heard that HAL is still offering twice a day cabin service. Is that true? Or does it vary by ship/ market?

Jim

I’m on Zuiderdam now and when my cabin steward introduced himself he just stated that they will be in twice a day and would I like ice service both times. So far the stewards have been really attentive. We’re on our third day in a row moving the clocks forward at 2am. I feel for the crew as I can lazily stay in bed as long as I want and they can’t!    ~Nancy              Sorry, I guess this is off topic. 

Edited May 16 by oakridger

[bennybear]

3 hours ago, AncientWanderer said:

 

Thanks for your thoughtful post.  If I'm reading correctly, there's one thing I'd point out.  This cruise ended in Seattle, not Vancouver.

And almost always Seattle cruises go on the outside of Vancouver island and Vancouver ones on the inside.  One would have to backtrack to do both Vancouver and Victoria and end up in .Seattle.  I’m wondering if Hal marketing  are the ones that messed this up.   As the pilot would need to be booked well prior,  seems someone dropped the ball.  But kudos to the captain for taking responsibility 
 

We once ate with the Canadian pilot and the Seymour narrows is challenging and timing is everything. 
 

Edited May 16 by bennybear

[bennybear]

 

3 hours ago, Mary229 said:

@TheMichael  I absolutely agree that discerning travelers are waiting.  We have done most of my husband’s list which we bought at great rates months if not years ago.  Besides our hot weather getaways we are watching and waiting.  Road travel has already slowed down and that is our direction while we wait it out. 

 

3 hours ago, TheMichael said:

 

I'm sorry I didn't make the point more obvious - record revenues being made despite cutbacks in almost every area should have rung a bell, but I'll explain:

 

You see, in business, normally cutbacks indicate a lack of profit from current customers. However, the tourism industry is currently enjoying record numbers of customers; business has never been so good. Yet even so, the industry is cutting back in every way possible while charging more. Immediate shareholder value over long-term goodwill.

 

To elaborate further, IMO if history shows anything, it's that this will not end well for the industry, with people (especially Americans) putting much of their "revenge travel" on credit, and those being the customers who really didn't care about the cutbacks. The rest of us who travel regularly have already become more discerning, but it didn't matter while everyone else was buying up those hotel rooms and airplane seats and cruise ship cabins, making it a double whammy when the credit comes due and the YOLO money dries up.

I am eagerly awaiting the end of revenge travel or a recession.   Flights are ridiculously delayed and crowds are overwhelming most places, not to mention the ridiculous prices for hotels.  

[bennybear]

Interestingly,  this year’s  map appears to show both the inside passage and going on the outside of Vancouver  island.    But the arrow points north to the Alaskan part.  I think that’s a big part of the confusion.   It was hard to find the map as the cruise is over but this  one appears to be accurate?

 

If anyone has theirs from the booking it may be worth looking at.  Maybe the FCC is very lucky if this was what was planned initially?  

 

In 2025 it appears to go  to Vancouver on the true inside passage, but the arrow still points north.

 

 

 

 

Edited May 16 by bennybear

[Fouremco]

2 hours ago, ShipsAreTheBest said:

Transiting down the east side of Vancouver Island (the inside passage route) requires passing through Seymour Narrows - and has to be done at nearly slack water. It is a challenging route and requires timing (and pilots).  Oh, and if you don’t make the Narrows at the right time, the arrival time at Victoria is endangered.  Yes, cruise ships travel that route all the time, but if there were no pilots available, you weren’t going that way.  Out into the Pacific and down the west side of the island it is…

Yes, I think that we are all aware of the difficult conditions that can challenge ships cruising the inside passage, and that experienced pilots are required. HAL has cruised this route for years and is well aware of the challenges and the requirement for pilots, but failed to secure one for the OP's cruise. This, not the conditions per se, was the cause of the change in route.

[Copper10-8]

3 hours ago, jeh10641 said:

I heard that HAL is still offering twice a day cabin service. Is that true? Or does it vary by ship/ market?

Jim

 

Just got off Eurodam in Vancouver, BC a week and a half ago. Excellent steward service by Dewa, the lead, and David, his No. 2. They provided morning service, as well as early evening turndown service. We did not ask, nor were given any choices at the beginning of the cruise in San Diego, CA. They just came in twice a day and did an awesome job