Is Holland America Line falling behind?

[stevenr597]

2 hours ago, TRLD said:

However their average price point is about twice that of HAL. With their new ships half the size,or less, of HALs.  Really not a good fit.

 

HAL.is in a unique place as far as its positioning. Pricing competitive with mass market lines, with smaller average ship size, and longer, more unique itineraries.

 

2 hours ago, TRLD said:

However their average price point is about twice that of HAL. With their new ships half the size,or less, of HALs.  Really not a good fit.

 

HAL.is in a unique place as far as its positioning. Pricing competitive with mass market lines, with smaller average ship size, and longer, more unique itineraries.

Oceania has two new ships which do average around 60,000 tons.  Clearly they are starting to increase in size, especially as compared to their "R" Class ships. 

When you book a suite in H.A. there prices are not that far behind that of Oceania.  

H.A. cannot compete with Princess or Celebrity.  But I do feel that they can fill a niche for travelers that want great service, with a "boutique" type ship and a little more refinement that the two lines I just mentioned. 

[TRLD]

1 hour ago, stevenr597 said:

 

Oceania has two new ships which do average around 60,000 tons.  Clearly they are starting to increase in size, especially as compared to their "R" Class ships. 

When you book a suite in H.A. there prices are not that far behind that of Oceania.  

H.A. cannot compete with Princess or Celebrity.  But I do feel that they can fill a niche for travelers that want great service, with a "boutique" type ship and a little more refinement that the two lines I just mentioned. 

Oceania newest ships are in the 1200 to 1300 passenger size. Less than half the capacity of HALs newest ships

 

Look at comparison of similar cabins. Costs on Oceania are considerably more.

 

HALs market positioning is clearly different than Princess and Celebrity. They appeal to different passengers.

 

In short Celebrity goes to about 350 unique places and out of the 3 has the shortest avg cruise length.

 

Princess goes to about 450 unique places, has a longer average cruise length, but has the largest average ship size of the 3.

 

HAL has the smallest average ship size, most unique destinations with around 550, and the longest avg itinerary length.

 

Different target markets, different appeal to different people. Individuals preferences may vary.

 

Looking at market watch data at revenue per fleet lower berth HAL is very close to Celebrities yield and higher than Princess.

Edited September 5 by TRLD

[CNSJ]

After 15 years of regular cruising we are very happy with HAL, even with the "changes" that fill the pages of Cruise Critic.  I do hope HAL survives,  I am not sure where I would turn - I think CUNARD might have service close to HAL's, and CUNARD may have itineraries we would enjoy.   (I hate having to dress up all the time on vacation🫢).  Maybe OCEANIA, at a higher cost?

 

We may have to look at UK lines...Maybe FRED OLSEN, or perhaps VIKING, but to be honest....I just want HAL to stay HAL.

[mcrcruiser]

On 9/5/2024 at 5:52 PM, CNSJ said:

After 15 years of regular cruising we are very happy with HAL, even with the "changes" that fill the pages of Cruise Critic.  I do hope HAL survives,  I am not sure where I would turn - I think CUNARD might have service close to HAL's, and CUNARD may have itineraries we would enjoy.   (I hate having to dress up all the time on vacation🫢).  Maybe OCEANIA, at a higher cost?

 

We may have to look at UK lines...Maybe FRED OLSEN, or perhaps VIKING, but to be honest....I just want HAL to stay HAL.

We don't under stand why  Carnival Corp   has not added any new ships since  Rotterdam  wasput into service ;as the lead time to bring on new ships is years in advance .So ,If I read the tea leaves right , the future for HAL is uncertain  .Can ny one give us more information on  New ships for HAL?

[Woofbite]

On 9/5/2024 at 6:52 PM, CNSJ said:

 I think CUNARD might have service close to HAL's, and CUNARD may have itineraries we would enjoy.   (I hate having to dress up all the time on vacation🫢).  Maybe OCEANIA, at a higher cost?

  VIKING, but to be honest....I just want HAL to stay HAL.

Good luck with Cunard, Oceania and Viking.  We did Viking Ocean three years ago, Cunard about 5 years ago and just got off our first Oceania cruise.  All had a few things we liked better than HAL and a lot more that we didn't. Cunard was relatively cheap but nothing matched their beautiful ship or evocative advertising. The others we thought were just plain overhyped and overpriced.  Of course everyone has their own expectations and opinions.

 

[Sdfgh]

54 minutes ago, mcrcruiser said:

We don't under stand why  Carnival Corp   has not added any new ships since  Rotterdam  wasput into service ;as the lead time to bring on new ships is years in advance .So ,If I read the tea leaves right , the future for HAL is uncertain  .Can ny one give us more information on  New ships for HAL?

There are sites which show new ships coming out this year, next year, and cruise line orders for new ships going out about 10 years. Almost all cruise lines are mentioned, mass market cruise lines, more boutique cruise lines, and some relatively new cruise lines such as Explora which is owned by MSC, all expanding their fleets. The new builds have mid sized ships that may wind up eating HALs lunch. A glaring omission was HAL. I know for certain that HAL is not going to inform anyone that they plan no new ships for the next decade. That would be equivalent to admitting we are just going to run our current fleet until each ship gets too old and undesirable. Corporate suicide.

Realistically, is HAL so unique that it can’t be duplicated? It can not only be duplicated it can be significantly improved. The Ford and Chevy were great until we tried the Toyota and Honda. 
Enjoy what we have now, great HAL food and service, however, don’t ever say that you didn’t see the end of HAL coming. Smooth Sailing

[CNSJ]

1 hour ago, Woofbite said:

Cunard was relatively cheap but nothing matched their beautiful ship or evocative advertising.

Im guessing you need to book a Queen's Grill Suite to reach the level of their advertising.  AT those costs I could cruise only once a year!

[ExArkie]

23 minutes ago, CNSJ said:

Im guessing you need to book a Queen's Grill Suite to reach the level of their advertising.  AT those costs I could cruise only once a year!

Not been my experience. The Cunard “beautiful ship,” as cited by the previous post, with the exception of a couple of limited areas, is open to everyone. The Queens Grill passengers get better service in their cabin and their restaurant, but outside of those areas, there is no distinction. 
 

Note this may be different on their new ship, Queen Anne. I have been on the other three, but not that one. 

Edited September 7 by ExArkie

[Woofbite]

We were on the QM2.  Sight lines for many seats in the theater were blocked by huge poles all over the place.  There were lines for practically every event to get good seats and nowhere for mobility impaired people to wait. 

We were only able to eat in the Golden Lion pub one time and that was by sitting through trivia and bingo because almost no one ever left.  Food in the main dining room was very ordinary and service so slow we gave up and ate in the buffet most of the time.  The specialty steakhouse with its $75 surcharge was a lot to pay for a not very special steak dinner. 

There were a lot of pretentious people around but the true class acts stood out without the show.

[HappyInVan]

2 hours ago, CNSJ said:

Im guessing you need to book a Queen's Grill Suite to reach the level of their advertising.  AT those costs I could cruise only once a year!

 

Well! It would be a special trip! Enjoy.

[3rdGenCunarder]

5 hours ago, ExArkie said:

Not been my experience. The Cunard “beautiful ship,” as cited by the previous post, with the exception of a couple of limited areas, is open to everyone. The Queens Grill passengers get better service in their cabin and their restaurant, but outside of those areas, there is no distinction. 
 

Note this may be different on their new ship, Queen Anne. I have been on the other three, but not that one. 

 

As on the other ships, QA has the separate Grills restaurants and a lounge near them (small and nowhere near as nice as any of the bars open to all), and the Grills Terrace on an upper deck. There is no other special reserved seating or difference in service in public areas. 

 

5 hours ago, Woofbite said:

We were on the QM2.  Sight lines for many seats in the theater were blocked by huge poles all over the place.  There were lines for practically every event to get good seats and nowhere for mobility impaired people to wait. 

We were only able to eat in the Golden Lion pub one time and that was by sitting through trivia and bingo because almost no one ever left.  Food in the main dining room was very ordinary and service so slow we gave up and ate in the buffet most of the time.  The specialty steakhouse with its $75 surcharge was a lot to pay for a not very special steak dinner. 

There were a lot of pretentious people around but the true class acts stood out without the show.

 

Sight line issues on QM2 are mostly in the upper level of the theater. There are some difficult seats up there. It's also steep and not a good idea for people with mobility issues.

 

I don't recall lines at "practically every event." There is a line for afternoon tea. They close the Queens Room for setup and then open it for people to find a table. If they didn't do that, people would camp out to hold a table (or leave items to "claim" a table) as you complained about the pub. Yes, the pub is small and very popular. Tip: have lunch there on embarkation day when few people know about it. 

 

No comment on the steakhouse. I'm not a fan, especially QM2's version.

 

Not to sound pretentious, but I just passed the milestone of 400 days on Cunard, and I can remember only two pretentious people in all my voyages (and they weren't in Queens Grill). I have sailed in insides, ocean view, balcony, Princess Grill. Haven't made it to Queens Grill yet. I have never heard someone say "I'm in Queens Grill and blah blah blah..." Seriously, never. 

 

[TRLD]

9 hours ago, mcrcruiser said:

We don't under stand why  Carnival Corp   has not added any new ships since  Rotterdam  wasput into service ;as the lead time to bring on new ships is years in advance .So ,If I read the tea leaves right , the future for HAL is uncertain  .Can ny one give us more information on  New ships for HAL?

Very simple. The 30 billion in debt from the Covid shutdown. The same reason that they have not ordered new ships for Princess, P&O UK, Costa, Aida, etc. All the ships being delivered in 23, 24, 25 were all ordered prior to the Covid shutdown.  Carnival has just recently ordered ships for delivery several years out.

 

8n the meantime ships are being kept in service longer, with orders being delayed. New orders will be placed as the debt comes down.

[TRLD]

7 hours ago, Sdfgh said:

There are sites which show new ships coming out this year, next year, and cruise line orders for new ships going out about 10 years. Almost all cruise lines are mentioned, mass market cruise lines, more boutique cruise lines, and some relatively new cruise lines such as Explora which is owned by MSC, all expanding their fleets. The new builds have mid sized ships that may wind up eating HALs lunch. A glaring omission was HAL. I know for certain that HAL is not going to inform anyone that they plan no new ships for the next decade. That would be equivalent to admitting we are just going to run our current fleet until each ship gets too old and undesirable. Corporate suicide.

Realistically, is HAL so unique that it can’t be duplicated? It can not only be duplicated it can be significantly improved. The Ford and Chevy were great until we tried the Toyota and Honda. 
Enjoy what we have now, great HAL food and service, however, don’t ever say that you didn’t see the end of HAL coming. Smooth Sailing

The new builds you are taking about are at fares 2 to 3 times HALs fares or more.

 

New ships will come with the exact timing to be determine by dent load and capital investment priorities.

[Ken the cruiser]

Is HAL falling behind? I think not, especially when it comes to offering some pretty cool itineraries in the 3-5 week range.

 

In our case we are in our early 70s and since cruising started back up, we have cruised extensively with Celebrity (120 days), Princess (125 days), NCL (51 days), and Disney (4 days). However, HAL started to catch our eye again in 2023, as we started to plan our 2025/2026 itineraries, mainly due to their variety of new early booking perks along with reasonable cabin prices. So we decided to give HAL another try and booked an April 2025 21-day Panama Canal cruise.
 

Another reason we started looking at HAL again was because Celebrity had started redesigning their itineraries to attract a younger (40-60+) working demographic along with playing some funky pricing games, such as charging a 20% surcharge if you wanted to book a cruise with a refundable deposit and offering an All Included perk package that only included basic internet and beverage packages but not gratuities. Needless to say Celebrity dropped down to the bottom of our pick list.

Fast forward to today and our desire to cruise again with HAL is still strong. A couple of weeks ago we booked the June 2026 “Nome” 28-day Alaska cruise, and then a couple of days ago when PCL cancelled their Oct 2026 28-night Northern Lights cruise because of redeployment issues, we wasted no time booking HAL’s Oct 2026 27-night Northern Lights/TA cruise on the Rotterdam. Right now we have 3 HAL, 3 PCL, 2 NCL, and 2 Celebrity cruises along with some cool VO, RCCL, and Disney cruises booked through 2026. So as you can see, we’re really not tied to any one cruise line. For us it’s all about the itinerary and value.
 

So as far as we’re concerned, HAL is definitely not falling behind, especially since they decided to add Production shows with singers and dancers back into their entertainment strategy. As for continuing to add new ships, that’s not a big priority for us. In our case as long as they continue to provide quality 3-5 week “single itinerary” cruises and don’t start playing stupid games like Celebrity, we’re good! 😁

Edited September 7 by Ken the cruiser

[HappyInVan]

I think that it is significant that Princess (a fellow CCL brand) ordered the latest and greatest new ships in 2018. But not HAL?

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sphere-class_cruise_ship

 

CCL's intentions seems to be crystal clear, even before covid. HAL is in the process of down-sizing to the right size. IMO, its only a matter of time before HAL announces ships to be retired. Or, there is a possibility that Carnival or Princess will poach a HAL ship. Particularly if finances are tight.

 

It is what it is.

[shandryl]

On 9/4/2024 at 11:58 AM, Sdfgh said:

I am trying Oceania for the first time this December.

I get brochures from Oceania. Please make sure to come back to CC!  love to know what you find/experience/like/dislike a comparison of sorts. 🙂

[shandryl]

On 9/3/2024 at 6:58 PM, srsurman said:

Perhaps the heavy drinking directly correlates with the lack of entertainment HAL provides...

😄that's funny! That made me laugh.  I understand what you mean though. 

Edited September 7 by shandryl

[TRLD]

2 hours ago, HappyInVan said:

I think that it is significant that Princess (a fellow CCL brand) ordered the latest and greatest new ships in 2018. But not HAL?

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sphere-class_cruise_ship

 

CCL's intentions seems to be crystal clear, even before covid. HAL is in the process of down-sizing to the right size. IMO, its only a matter of time before HAL announces ships to be retired. Or, there is a possibility that Carnival or Princess will poach a HAL ship. Particularly if finances are tight.

 

It is what it is.

Probably because at that time HAL.was still.waiting the delivery of the third ship of its last order. Usually there is a gap of a couple years in HAL orders after one series is finished.

[LetItSnow]

1 hour ago, TRLD said:

Probably because at that time HAL.was still.waiting the delivery of the third ship of its last order. Usually there is a gap of a couple years in HAL orders after one series is finished.

From the bit of research I've done, I see six years between the delivery of the Nieuw Amsterdam in 2010 and Koningsdam in 2016.  That's a pretty long stretch.  Nieuw Statendam came in 2018 and Rotterdam in 2021 so it really hasn't been long since the newest ship came out.  

 

I've sailed on all the Pinnacle ships and I want to experience the others.  We're booked on Oosterdam and Zaandam in 2025.  We've cruised on RCCL, Princess and Carnival but HAL to me, and my wife, just feels right and we're always looking forward to the next time we get on board.  It's like reuniting with family each time.

 

[HappyInVan]

2 hours ago, LetItSnow said:

From the bit of research I've done, I see six years between the delivery of the Nieuw Amsterdam in 2010 and Koningsdam in 2016.  That's a pretty long stretch.  Nieuw Statendam came in 2018 and Rotterdam in 2021 so it really hasn't been long since the newest ship came out.  

 

Don't forget that there is a lag of 3-5 years between ordering and delivering a cruise ship. Currently, the shipyards are busy building huge LNG ships. The Sun princess was ordered 2018 and delivered 2024..

 

So, a 2025 order will likely see a delivery of at least 2030. By that time, Volendam will be 30 years old, and Noordam will be 24.

 

The main problem is that we can't see a business case for smaller less-efficient ships at the current price point. Yes, profits matter!

Edited September 8 by HappyInVan

[Hlitner]

On 9/3/2024 at 2:42 PM, UPNYGuy said:

Never say Holland America won’t do a larger ship. If they don’t, they won’t survive. The public has already been conditioned to not pay the prices they need to fill the smaller ships on a profitable scale. If HAL were Viking, Oceania, or Azamara and were able to command premium prices, yes…

Those lines command a premium price because that offer a premium product.  HAL now plays to a mostly budget oriented clientele and has become something close to a budget cruise line.  We enjoy premium and luxury products (now on the Seabourn Encore) but also sometimes book budget lines (like HAL) with low expectations.  I do wonder if HAL will morph into the CMV line for North America.  They had an OK budget product with older ships until they finally failed.

 

Hank

[Sdfgh]

15 hours ago, TRLD said:

The new builds you are taking about are at fares 2 to 3 times HALs fares or more.

 

New ships will come with the exact timing to be determine by dent load and capital investment priorities.

New ships are either soon to be released, under construction, or in the planning stages for almost all the major cruise lines. These include cruise lines under the CCL umbrella , under the RCCL umbrella, MSC, Norwegian, etc. It had absolutely nothing to do with cruise fares. Don’t get me wrong, I want HAL to succeed, our fondest memories are aboard HAL ships, however, there is a reason of which I don’t know, why HAL is not in the future plans of CCL. 

[Sdfgh]

15 hours ago, TRLD said:

Very simple. The 30 billion in debt from the Covid shutdown. The same reason that they have not ordered new ships for Princess, P&O UK, Costa, Aida, etc. All the ships being delivered in 23, 24, 25 were all ordered prior to the Covid shutdown.  Carnival has just recently ordered ships for delivery several years out.

 

8n the meantime ships are being kept in service longer, with orders being delayed. New orders will be placed as the debt comes down.

I am sure CCL was in huge debt because of Covid, as was the entire cruise industry. The are doing well now and spending their money selectively, very selectively, and HAL is not part of it.

[Sdfgh]

15 hours ago, Ken the cruiser said:

Is HAL falling behind? I think not, especially when it comes to offering some pretty cool itineraries in the 3-5 week range.

 

In our case we are in our early 70s and since cruising started back up, we have cruised extensively with Celebrity (120 days), Princess (125 days), NCL (51 days), and Disney (4 days). However, HAL started to catch our eye again in 2023, as we started to plan our 2025/2026 itineraries, mainly due to their variety of new early booking perks along with reasonable cabin prices. So we decided to give HAL another try and booked an April 2025 21-day Panama Canal cruise.
 

Another reason we started looking at HAL again was because Celebrity had started redesigning their itineraries to attract a younger (40-60+) working demographic along with playing some funky pricing games, such as charging a 20% surcharge if you wanted to book a cruise with a refundable deposit and offering an All Included perk package that only included basic internet and beverage packages but not gratuities. Needless to say Celebrity dropped down to the bottom of our pick list.

Fast forward to today and our desire to cruise again with HAL is still strong. A couple of weeks ago we booked the June 2026 “Nome” 28-day Alaska cruise, and then a couple of days ago when PCL cancelled their Oct 2026 28-night Northern Lights cruise because of redeployment issues, we wasted no time booking HAL’s Oct 2026 27-night Northern Lights/TA cruise on the Rotterdam. Right now we have 3 HAL, 3 PCL, 2 NCL, and 2 Celebrity cruises along with some cool VO, RCCL, and Disney cruises booked through 2026. So as you can see, we’re really not tied to any one cruise line. For us it’s all about the itinerary and value.
 

So as far as we’re concerned, HAL is definitely not falling behind, especially since they decided to add Production shows with singers and dancers back into their entertainment strategy. As for continuing to add new ships, that’s not a big priority for us. In our case as long as they continue to provide quality 3-5 week “single itinerary” cruises and don’t start playing stupid games like Celebrity, we’re good! 😁

Yes, you are a perfect fit for HAL. They do offer more exotic, longer , and varied itineraries. What you should continue doing is sail on other cruise lines as well, this helps to keep things fresh and exciting. We have begun to do that, we found ourselves not as excited about cruising because we were on the same HAL ships over and over again. The time has come to mix it up a bit. Smooth Sailing 

[Sdfgh]

42 minutes ago, Hlitner said:

Those lines command a premium price because that offer a premium product.  HAL now plays to a mostly budget oriented clientele and has become something close to a budget cruise line.  We enjoy premium and luxury products (now on the Seabourn Encore) but also sometimes book budget lines (like HAL) with low expectations.  I do wonder if HAL will morph into the CMV line for North America.  They had an OK budget product with older ships until they finally failed.

 

Hank

I don’t believe HAL is a “ budget “ cruise line, it certainly doesn’t market itself as such. When speaking with fellow cruisers they look at HAL as attracting an older, more well traveled crowd. All our friends believe the food and especially the staff on HAL superior to Carnival, Princess, RC, MSC, Costa, and Celebrity. Prices are comparable to those other cruise lines and in most cases slightly higher. Your idea of booking a “budget “ cruise line like HAL with “low expectations “ is quite frankly absurd. Why bother going away?  Would people eat in “budget “ restaurants with “low expectations” ?